Lightsquared and GPS system

Well, if they can get through the problem by paying to replace every "mission critical" GPS unit (with the definition of "Mission Critical" written by... me... with assistance for technical stuff from, say, Scott and Lance)...

as long as that definition includes every GPS unit used by the US military as well as every aviation GPS unit (oh yeah, and the units used by farmers).

Also, they should pay all the delta life-cycle costs for future systems.
 
Are cell phones critically effected? My understanding was the problem was with precision units mostly.
Cellphones were significantly affected in the original testing. With Lightsquared's current, temporary restriction to the lower portion of their spectrum proposal they claim that only high precision GPS receivers (e.g. survey or ag) will be affected but there's been very little testing of that claim.

Cell phones seem to have "enhanced GPS" off the towers as well. Besides, how long does a phone last? A couple years at the outside? Most of us are good for a cheap upgrade to a top model after a year.
Pretty much all that "enhanced GPS" offers is a more rapid initial position solution along with a pre-GPS lock location based on cell tower signals that's pretty inaccurate.

It is true that turnover in cellphones is pretty rapid but even then I'd expect to see current products in use for well over two years.

Even if they have to replace every existing GPS receiver it won't sum up to a year's profits one it rolls and they accept that as the possible solution.
Not true by a long shot when you count all the actively used GPS receivers. Heck, just the installed cost for every aircraft GPS has to be in the billions. Then there's all the military hardware using GPS. AFaIK they've got medium caliber munitions that have GPS receivers in them.
 
Can't the filter just be in a separate box inline between the antenna and receiver?
That's not a viable solution in many cases. First you've got plenty of GPS receivers with integrated antennas, most of which have no extra room for any additional filtering even if it were possible to insert a filter. Second most remote GPS antennas are amplified and that generally means that at least some of the additional filtering has to be added to the path between the antenna and it's internal amplifier. Otherwise that amp will become overloaded by the LS signal and the GPS signal won't make it through.

Or just build it into a replacement antenna which Lightsquared can provide. Or just buy me a premodified 750, I'd be fine with that. Considering the money at stake on their end, there ain't that many 750s to buy...

...You never know, Light Squared stands to make a lot of money, but I haven't totally heard what capability they are going to give me. However, if Light Squared is willing to eat the cost of refitting everyone's gear, there's no reason that they can't be given the entire bandwidth and we can piggyback the GPS signal into the data stream as a second system of delivery.

First of all, LS has been pushing the notion that their interference is everybody else's problem and they shouldn't have to bear the cost of all this testing let alone providing a fix to any GPS users. If they were willing to offer that and there was a viable solution for all affected receivers then I think it would indeed be fair to let LS do their thing as long as they provided the necessary alterations prior to initiating operations. But I'm pretty certain that the Pope will become a Muslim before that happens.

Second, GPS is a time stream not a data stream and there's no benefit to putting a time stream on a secondary data path. Sorry but that concept is a non-starter.

At the same time we can piggyback weather and traffic and all the ADS-B stuff through the same data stream. The goal of having a single full nation, preferably full world (well, 70N-70S at least) system that people can use everywhere. We already have these systems but the capacity is limited and they have latency issues as well as being very expensive for moderate broadband speed, say DSL or worse depending on atmospherics and angles, and that was with VSAT. Thing is, you don't need satellite everywhere. I'll vote to give them the go ahead as long as they produce a system where I can travel anywhere 70N-70S (this is the area of the globe INMARSAT covers with 3 satellites) and be in full communications in voice and data at all times (may be slower when in Satellite Only coverage areas, but there you won't have a problem receiving the direct signal from the GPS birds. So you basically have your GPS antenna and the specialized Light Squared antenna that also receives GPS and incorporates their receiver and filtering. We can then get the rest of the data feed as well. The system could also add towers to the GPS "Constellation" which could amazingly improve vertical accuracy.
Sorry but all the above it pretty much impossible with current technology including what LS is proposing.
 
THEY bought on the cheap, a frequency license for satellite spectrum. They're trying to convert that it a ground license, an entirely much more powerful kettle o'fish. They be losing their shirt.
 
AFaIK they've got medium caliber munitions that have GPS receivers in them.

Maybe Lightsquared should sell their technology to our enemies. Sounds like it would come in handy for them.
 
Can't the filter just be in a separate box inline between the antenna and receiver?

I haven't seen anyone advertise a filter that has a sharp enough edge to handle the massive difference in received power.

You'd be trying to filter out a jamming signal that is BILLIONS of times stronger than the signal you are trying to track.

Even if LS was willing to pay for upgrades to aviation GPSs there isn't a way to do it right now.

The military receivers are more resistant to the jamming, because they track a higher fidelity signal and they track 2 signals simultaneously. However, during signal acquisition even the military receivers would be overwhelmed.
 
Maybe Lightsquared should sell their technology to our enemies. Sounds like it would come in handy for them.

Our enemies already have it, as do we. GPS jamming is a well-expected scenario, for the modern battlefield. Seen the GPS NOTAMs near Pueblo, CO lately?
 
Maybe Lightsquared should sell their technology to our enemies. Sounds like it would come in handy for them.
"Their technology" is the wireless telecom standard of LTE. This is the same system that AT&T and T-Mobile have started to deploy in the US. It contains a ton of Ericsson IPR as well as inputs from all of the major companies. LTE is a global standard and is being deployed globally too. There is nothing special about Lightsquared's technology. The difference between them and the teleco is the spectrum that is being used.
 
Maybe Lightsquared should sell their technology to our enemies. Sounds like it would come in handy for them.
The military has that issue covered with missiles that home in on jamming signals. Perhaps we can get the army to try them out on the LS transmitters should they go active.
 
Update

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-v...cuments?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) will object to two nominees to the Federal Communications Commission over the agency's refusal to turn over documents related to wireless company LightSquared.
"I will object to proceeding to the nomination because the FCC continues to stonewall a document request I submitted to the FCC over six months ago on April 27, 2011, regarding their actions related to LightSquared and Harbinger Capital," Grassley said on Thursday, referring to the primary investor in LightSquared.






"It not only sets a dangerous precedent for a federal agency to unilaterally set the rules on how it engages with Congress — it also prevents any meaningful ability for the vast majority of Congress to inform themselves of how an agency works."
 
Just for grins, I've attached a paper I wrote for my current English class on the subject. It got an A.
 

Attachments

  • LightSquared paper.pdf
    53 KB · Views: 25
From AVWeb Flash: "A coalition of GPS manufacturers told the FCC Tuesday that there is still no reason to think that LightSquared's use of frequencies to provide broadband will not impair GPS signals as LightSquared expands its plans.... "If the use of LightSquared's network requires the company to expand its frequency band to both lower and upper spectrums considered, it could sandwich the GPS spectrum. The coalition says that situation could create a new problem -- "intermodulation" of signals "in the heart of the GPS band, well outside of LightSquared's authorized frequencies." http://www.avweb.com/pdf/CoalitionUpper10MHzExParte110811.pdf Tim: Nice paper.
 
Just for grins, I've attached a paper I wrote for my current English class on the subject. It got an A.

In Corporate jobs, that'd have to be pared down to eight three-word bullet points so we could all enjoy some Death by PowerPoint style briefings for management. Writing isn't read by anyone anymore. ;)
 
In Corporate jobs, that'd have to be pared down to eight three-word bullet points so we could all enjoy some Death by PowerPoint style briefings for management. Writing isn't read by anyone anymore. ;)

  • Use bullet points.
  • Be brief.
  • Mold consensus toward management dictates.
:rolleyes:
 
Talked with someone who made it down to NM to the recent tests.

Dang. Dual RF chambers with a max of 200dB of isolation and a simulated GPS cluster? Those kids have fun toys!
 
Talked with someone who made it down to NM to the recent tests.

Dang. Dual RF chambers with a max of 200dB of isolation and a simulated GPS cluster? Those kids have fun toys!
And those of us who are sitting in the room this week to look over LS results are doing it with Macs, PCs, powerpoint and on rare occasions MatLab. We don't have fun toys, but we have expense accounts the necessary liquid refreshments needed to get the work done! :D

I can tell you, since this meeting is a matter of public record, that there was little discussion on this issue. A paper was presented and most people just kept checking email. But the good thing was that no action was taken. From a standard's perspective the issue is advisory while we wait for the FCC ruling. No one in the room is willing right now to make a public, on the record comment.
 
Last edited:
And those of us who are sitting in the room this week to look over LS results are doing it with Macs, PCs, powerpoint and on rare occasions MatLab. We don't have fun toys, but we have expense accounts the necessary liquid refreshments needed to get the work done! :D

I can tell you, since this meeting is a matter of public record, that there was little discussion on this issue. A paper was presented and most people just kept checking email. But the good thing was that no action was taken. From a standard's perspective the issue is advisory while we wait for the FCC ruling. No one in the room is willing right now to make a public, on the record comment.

Is the paper public?
 
Is this the AF/DoD paper. Rumor was it won't release until December...

Meanwhile, the political wrangling is entertaining...

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ightsquared-in-event-of-gps-interference.html

Meanwhile in non-Lightsquared news, it only took me a month to get to the right person at Motorola to assure that I have the right part numbers for a project I'm working on in the P25 world... Sigh.

Wow do they have a lot of people and levels and yadda... yadda... If I'm lucky I'll have a quote today. Unlucky, it'll be another month... :(

In fairness to them, they're not well set up for "I'm copying someone else's design that works, here's the components and licenses I need." They want to hand-hold. That's ok.

Just takes a bloody long time to get through their approval process to even get the quote... Nice folks though. Sales is happy anyone's asking for quotes on anything these days. ;)
 
Is this the AF/DoD paper.
No. It is a new proposal from LS.

There is also a new concern being raised that some of the 700MHz systems may cause GPS interference because a harmonic is smack dab in the middle of the GPS band. The estimated about of interference could be a loss of 3dB of GPS desense. The good news is that this new threat is being raised so that the interference can be mitigated without regulatory involvement.
 
Last edited:
Sheesh. Nextel still costing us all money indirectly then? ;)

(Since 700 was brainstormed after the big move away from Nextel noise in 800...)

I see NTIA's pretty colored 2012 spectrum poster is posted in PDF again. I guess I'll have to print a big one and hang it up in the basement one of these days. It always looks cool on the computer. Need to use a mobster plotter/printer and make a huge one sometime.

To paraphrase Roy Rogers, "Buy spectrum. They aren't making any more of it." ;)
 
I see NTIA's pretty colored 2012 spectrum poster is posted in PDF again. I guess I'll have to print a big one and hang it up in the basement one of these days. It always looks cool on the computer. Need to use a mobster plotter/printer and make a huge one sometime.

Could you post a link?
 
Need to use a mobster plotter/printer and make a huge one sometime.
"Sure, buddy, you can use our Gambino 2000 to make your pretty pitchers. But it'll cost ya!!"
 
Good News!

LightSquared Is Doomed

Its struggle against the federal government to gain acceptance of its high-speed internet product is nearly over. LightSquared, the ambitious national wireless provider, is doomed.

LightSquared is supported by $3 billion from Harbinger Capital Partners hedge fund. That fund now has only $5.7 billion, compared with $26 billion in 2008. And the SEC is examining Philip Falcone, the founder of the fund, for securities charges. His future is more in doubt than that of LightSquared.

Read more: LightSquared Is Doomed - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2011/12/15/lightsquared-is-doomed/#ixzz1gcHcE0mw


Submitted by Peter Flaherty on Sat, 12/10/2011 - 12:45
Billionaire Phil Falcone, whose cozy relationship with the Obama Administration was first exposed by NLPC, may face civil fraud charges by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). According to a filing yesterday by Harbinger Group Inc., Falcone and two other directors have received "Wells Notices," meaning that they are under investigation.

Falcone is the Chairman, CEO and primary investor in Harbinger Group Inc., a hedge fund. Reportedly, other Harbinger investors include Soros Fund Management. Harbinger owns LightSquared, which has received an unusual waiver from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to deploy a national 4G wireless network.
 
Last edited:
Federal agencies have found that Lighsquared's proposed wireless broadband service will interfere with GPS that aids in airplane navigation.
...

A government group tested the service's interference with various devices and presented the findings to the Space-Based Positioning Navigation and Timing Executive Committee, which includes members of the Department of Defense and Department of Transportation.

A joint statement from the two departments said that tests found that the service won't interfere significantly with cellular telephones, but a separate analysis by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) showed that its signals interfered with a flight safety system designed to warn pilots of approaching terrain.

The service also caused "harmful interference" to the majority of other general-purpose GPS receivers that were tested, according to the agencies.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/government/mobile/232300596

But, but, but we invested a lot of money and lobbyists and money for lobbyists and money in building our business around this impractical thing and SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY US!
 
Update; looks like LightSquared got shot down by an act of congress:

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/01/new-act-scuppers-lightsquareds.html

"A clause buried deep in the 565 pages of the 2012 Defense Authorization act passed in December bars the Federal Communications Commission from approving systems that interfere in any way with military GPS. The bill also tells the FCC to supply Congress with a final copy of the report from its working group, which late last year issued a preliminary report warning that a system proposed by telecoms firm LightSquared of Reston, Virginia would cause serious interference."
 
For a bunch of nincompoops, Congress may have actually gotten one right. Amazing.
 
I'm surprised it worked out this way! I was just shocked by some of the Lightsquared tactics.
 
I never thought the DoD would let it fly, the certainly have let it drag on longer than I thought though.... Is it really over ? A terrified part of me thought they MIGHT get it through if LS agreed to pay to retro fit all the gummints GPSes with a filter.
 
Back
Top