Light Sport training questlon

Ron Levy said:
There is nothing I can find in the regulations or FAA Order 8900.1 which either requires or authorizes a "LSA restriction" to be placed on a Student Pilot certificate.
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Student Pilot Certificates are discussed in FAA Order 8900.2.



d. Applicant Meets Requirements. If the applicant meets all of the requirements for a
student pilot certificate, prepare an FAA Form 8710-2, sign, and have the applicant sign, in ink,
both the original and the copy.
(1) The FAA Form 8710-2 should be typewritten, but may be handwritten.
Note: The examiner should advise the applicant that an airman medical certificate
or valid U.S. driver’s license is required to solo airplanes, airships, weight shift
control, powered parachutes, and/or gyroplanes.
(2) The examiner should inform a student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate that he or
she shall not act as pilot in command:
(a) Of an aircraft other than a light sport aircraft;
(b) At night;
(c) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL;
(d) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace,
and to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower without having received the ground and flight training specified in § 61.94 and an endorsement from an
authorized instructor; and
(e) Must comply with the provisions of § 61.89(a) and 61.89(b).
(3) The examiner should issue the original to the applicant and inform the applicant that
the certificate expires 24 or 36 calendar-months after the date it was issued, as appropriate.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Student Pilot Certificates are discussed in FAA Order 8900.2.
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Based on my reading of 8900.2, I'm under the impression that the examiner is required to inform the applicant of the LSA limitations on his certificate, but not to place an actual textual limitation on it. I'm presuming that that's because the applicant doesn't have an FAA medical (otherwise he'd have gone through an AME, and not the FSDO or a DPE). Does that sound right?
 
So the 8710-2 form is the same as I got hand written from the DE as my temp only stating Student Pilot in LSA rather than Commercial Pilot MEL....? If so then it's still an appropriate limitation on his certificate.
 
matthammer said:
Based on my reading of 8900.2, I'm under the impression that the examiner is required to inform the applicant of the LSA limitations on his certificate, but not to place an actual textual limitation on it. I'm presuming that that's because the applicant doesn't have an FAA medical (otherwise he'd have gone through an AME, and not the FSDO or a DPE). Does that sound right?
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Sounds right to me. There is nothing which should prevent the holder of a plan Student Pilot Certificate (as opposed to a combined Medical/Student Pilot Certificate) from going to an AME and obtaining a Medical Certificate so s/he can go train in and solo a C-150 instead of the LSA in which s/he started. OTOH, the FAA gets rather cross when someone holds two apparently valid pilot certificates simultaneously, and I know of no mechanism in place for the Student Pilot to surrender the SP cert to the AME in exchange for a combined Medical/SP cert (one issue being losing the endorsements on the old SP cert).

All in all, it sounds like the issuer who type "Sport" onto the SP cert was exceeding his/her authority.

Any comment, R&W?
 
Henning said:
So the 8710-2 form is the same as I got hand written from the DE as my temp only stating Student Pilot in LSA rather than Commercial Pilot MEL....? If so then it's still an appropriate limitation on his certificate.
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Please show us where in 8900.2 (for DPE's) or 8900.1 (for Inspectors) it says that. And then correlate that to the post I just made, above. As noted above, glider and balloon pilots have been doing this for years, and there's nothing on the face of their SP cert which says "GLIDER/BALLOON." The place where that restriction is effected is on the back, where the instructor signs the solo endorsement for the specific make/model of aircraft.
 
I would think typing the limitation on the certificate is a nifty way of informing them. I don't really see how that is to be addressed.
 
Henning said:
I would think typing the limitation on the certificate is a nifty way of informing them. I don't really see how that is to be addressed.
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But why does it matter? If you have a Student Pilot cert without a medical it isn't any good for anything other than Sport Pilot, so putting "Sport Pilot" on the certificate is redundant and unnecessary.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But why does it matter? If you have a Student Pilot cert without a medical it isn't any good for anything other than Sport Pilot, so putting "Sport Pilot" on the certificate is redundant and unnecessary.
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Yeah, so, your point? There is some reg that makes redundancy self canceling like a double negative? If it can be used for nothing else, what is the problem with listing the limitation? The end of the matter is it's the governments document to issue to you stating whatever the hell they please and if you don't like it you can go Ultralight.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But why does it matter? If you have a Student Pilot cert without a medical it isn't any good for anything other than Sport Pilot, so putting "Sport Pilot" on the certificate is redundant and unnecessary.
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Not to mention that it limits them from soloing a non-LSA balloon or glider which, with the proper endorsement on the back, they would otherwise be able to do. R.A.A., as they say in logic classes.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But why does it matter? If you have a Student Pilot cert without a medical it isn't any good for anything other than Sport Pilot, so putting "Sport Pilot" on the certificate is redundant and unnecessary.
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Exactly. Besides, you only need a student pilot certificate to solo. NO CFI will sign off a student to solo a non-LSA aircraft unless he also has a medical. So a textual limitation on the student pilot certificate would be completely, one hundred percent, pointless.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, so, your point? There is some reg that makes redundancy self canceling like a double negative? If it can be used for nothing else, what is the problem with listing the limitation? The end of the matter is it's the governments document to issue to you stating whatever the hell they please and if you don't like it you can go Ultralight.
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Because it can be used for something else. C.f., Ron's post. Also, if you get a medical, it can be used for anything.
 
matthammer said:
Exactly. Besides, you only need a student pilot certificate to solo. NO CFI will sign off a student to solo a non-LSA aircraft unless he also has a medical.
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I might pick that bone with you. Nothing in the regs says I can't train or endorse someone for solo in a non-LSA airplane without a medical -- they just can't actually solo until they get that medical. Probably very limited practical application of that, but just as a point of law...
 
Ron Levy said:
I might pick that bone with you. Nothing in the regs says I can't train or endorse someone for solo in a non-LSA airplane without a medical -- they just can't actually solo until they get that medical.
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Okay, let me rephrase for the bone-pickers: No CFI would endorse a student to solo a non-LSA aircraft without making it abundantly clear that they aren't permitted to actually solo until they have a valid medical.

Happy? :D
 
matthammer said:
Because it can be used for something else. C.f., Ron's post. Also, if you get a medical, it can be used for anything.
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If you get a medical you get a new one, if you need one for soloing a balloon, ask for one.
 
matthammer said:
Because it can be used for something else. C.f., Ron's post. Also, if you get a medical, it can be used for anything.
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If you get a medical you get a new one, if you need one for soloing a balloon, ask for one. Y'all are making a deal out of nothing.
 
Henning said:
If you get a medical you get a new one,
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No, you don't. If you already hold an unexpired Student Pilot certificate, you do not receive another one from an AME issuing a medical certificate. If you already hold a pilot certificate, all you get is a medical, not a combined SP/Medical.

Y'all are making a deal out of nothing.
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I don't consider an FAA Inspector violating FAA Orders "nothing." YMMV.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't consider an FAA Inspector violating FAA Orders "nothing." YMMV.
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I don't know if I would characterize it as "violating orders". And I certainly don't know any details to speak on it.

Sometimes Regions implement rules and procedures that aren't concurrent with other Regions.

Before anyone decides to go off on me I'm just giving an opinion of practices that go on inside the Agency.

Other than that I don't have an answer except for what I see in guidance.
 
Wow, I didn't mean to open up a
open-a-can-of-worms.jpg


when I mentioned that my student certificate had a limitation on it. I even agreed with most everyone on the original question! It must have been the FSDO doing something weird. I must say they didn't seem used to sport pilots. After I filled out the form for a private student pilot certificate, I mentioned something about sport and they said "Oh, you want sport? We have a different form for that." It was the exact same form with a check box that said "sport" right next to the box with "private." Oh FSDOs, don't we love you.
 
Doesn't matter, James, so long as you are being trained by a non LSA-limited instructor. You keep the logbook, you go back to the FSDO and request one in which the box is not checked.

Not a big deal. The hours count.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I cannot believe that just because a person states he is working on a Sport Pilot Cert, he cannot solo in a Cessna 150 if he has a medical/student pilot certificate. But the above quoted regulation, if taken at face value, makes it pretty clear that a "A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate must comply with the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section and may not act as pilot in command..."
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Greg, you are reading too much into the regulation. At face value, it says "student pilot", not "a person with a Student Pilot Certificate".

If you read the word "student" in it's generic form without trying to define the word as if it is in 61.87, then it makes some legal sense. Isn't that all you are trying to do?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I don't know if I would characterize it as "violating orders". And I certainly don't know any details to speak on it.

Sometimes Regions implement rules and procedures that aren't concurrent with other Regions.

Before anyone decides to go off on me I'm just giving an opinion of practices that go on inside the Agency.

Other than that I don't have an answer except for what I see in guidance.
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This is not going off on you, R&W....

I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find a lack of standardization in FSDOs!

"Your winnings, sir!"
Thank you
 
Ron Levy said:
And would you agree that there is nothing in guidance about typing "SPORT" onto Student Pilot certificates issued at the FSDO?
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Without seeing what that particular FSDO or that Region has for guidance (in addition to the usual Orders and Notices) pertaining to the matter I couldn't answer that.

The best person to ask that question is the Inspector who put the limitation on the certificate.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Without seeing what that particular FSDO or that Region has for guidance (in addition to the usual Orders and Notices) pertaining to the matter I couldn't answer that.

The best person to ask that question is the Inspector who put the limitation on the certificate.
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I was not aware that individual regions or FSDO's were permitted to make up their own guidance on placing limitations on pilot certificates.
 
Ron Levy said:
I was not aware that individual regions or FSDO's were permitted to make up their own guidance on placing limitations on pilot certificates.
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Even so, Ron, I don't think you are "Shocked, Shocked" to learn that it happens.

-Skip
 
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