Light airplane for 130 mile commute......

Slipkid65

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Slipkid65
Hi folks!

I am in the market for an airplane to commute roughly 30-40 times per year, between Naples, FL and Orlando. Depending on where I can find hangar space (KAPF, KIMM maybe KMKY), it'll be roughly 110 to 130 NMs via air.

I've been doing the 180 mile (each way) drive for almost 13 years, and between the increasing population and general dumbing down of society, I am well over the thrill of near death every 3-4 days, not to mention I can save about an hour, even if I use KISM vs. KMCO. I've got 15 years left before retirement, and the thought of doing this drive for the better part of 30 years total has got me looking at airplanes!

In addition to the commute, the airplane would likely be used to travel across the state to see relatives a few times per year, and to provide a training platform for my 17 y.o. son.

I'm an ATP and have been flying for over 30 years (well over 20k hours), but haven't been in command of a SEL airplane in over 25, and have only gone for rides with others a handful of times in that time (mostly a friend's T-34).

As much as I'd like a complex single like a Bonanza, Mooney, Comanche etc., I'm thinking that something with gear down and welded, and a fixed pitch prop/O-360 would serve me well (Cherokee 180, 172/180, AA-5 etc) are the most likely candidates. IFR equipped is also a must.

I've flown all of these in the past, as well as worked on them in MX back in the early to mid '80's (no A&P though..... something I truly regret not pursuing when I was doing it every day!) I feel that they'd offer the most bang for the buck for both the commute, overall cost and resale.

In the 30+ years I've been flying, I've only seriously considered buying an airplane once, while I was building time. I've been out of the GA world a long time, and have just begun to research buying and owning one, so ANY advice from you folks would be greatly appreciated!
 
Archer or 182? 182 does lots of things well.
 
Either you didn't mention it or I missed it, but I didn't see any specific useful load requirement. Barring the need to carry a load, I'd say Warrior or 172. I'd lean toward a Warrior since you can get then a little cheaper than a comparable 172. Unless you need the usefully load, I think the 182 or Archer is a little overkill for the mission.
 
Keep it simple, have a decent dispatch rate. Also, be sure to not flare at 50 feet!
 
Keep it simple, have a decent dispatch rate. Also, be sure to not flare at 50 feet!

LOL... Definitely! I think the latter will be the most difficult part, other than not trying to configure at too high a speed!
 
You didn't mention price, so on the low end, a Grumman AA-5 Tiger, or on the higher and new end, a Diamond DA-40. They both have decent speed, fixed gear, and will work as trainers. I wouldn't necessarily rule out constant speed props--the extra performance outweigh the additional mx costs. I'd also think a Cessna Cardinal would fit the mission profile if a high wing was preferred. A 172 would work, but a little slow for a "daily driver".
 
You might want to look at an RV8 for a commuter. Quick, simple, fun.
 
By all means, consider a DA20 -- relatively fast, very quiet & comfortable, extremely fuel-efficient.
 
IFR seems a must, but icing shouldn't be a problem in that area. A 150-180HP fixed gear single is probably the right for that distance. Your biggest bang for the buck in that class is probably a Grumman AA-5A Cheetah -- 120 KTAS on 8.5 gph with low initial, insurance, and maintenance costs, and a fine IFR platform. You can get really good deals on Cheetahs since the 180HP Tiger is so much preferred, and if you don't need the extra 12 knots and 150 lb useful load (which shouldn't be an issue for just you over that distance), you don't need the Tiger.

The 100-125HP 2-seaters can be nice, too, but are considerably slower -- one good headwind, and you've just about stopped moving.
 
Any one of the airplanes you have identified would work perfectly -

Nice decent IFR [430/530] Cherokee 180 provides a stable IFR platform, the power to get above when you want to so you don't get pounded under the clouds, the ability to through them when needed, and it has the hp to get the job done if you want to use it as a family burger runner.

A 180hp Skyhawk and any 182 does the same job equally as well - a good Cherokee 180 will be $5-10k cheaper than similar Skyhawk usually - hence my comment about them. The O-360-A4A is as bulletproof as they come - and any difference in speed between 115kt Skyhawk, 122kt -180 or even a 135kt 182/AA-5 is not relevant over such a stage length - its a couple min either way . . .
 
Thanks for the quick replies!

Budget is +/- $50k or so. The sweet spot in this price range, appears to be a mid time Cherokee 180 with a hershey bar wing.

I'm not looking for the latest whizbang gadgets (not that that stuff isn't cool!), just basic, reliable transportation. That said, I'm amazed at the state of avionics nowadays. The stuff in many homebuilts is light years ahead of the stuff I use every day in a 737! Heck, the stuff available for an iPad is often better than the stuff on the Boeing.

I'm thinking somewhere around 800-1000 lb useful would be perfect. 2-3 adults and overnight bags for flights under 3 hours. The farthest I see myself flying the thing would be APF-TLH, and that would only be for another year or so when my daughter graduates, unless my son goes to FSU. Beyond that I'll go airline.

The Grumman line is one I've often overlooked, but I am gonna check them out too. I got a few hours in a Tiger back in the mid '80's, and it was a fun airplane. How is the parts/mx availability situation on these vs. a Piper or Cessna?

I've often considered building an RV-8 or the like (it would be the near perfect commuter for me) and might still do it someday, but right now, I'd like to stick with certified AC with a few more seats.
 
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have you considered a helos for your trip because it seems you do not need a runway for the helos
 
have you considered a helos for your trip because it seems you do not need a runway for the helos

That would be very cool, but there are a few issues. Cost, and the fact that I'm not heli rated (nor am I itching to become so!)
 
are the helos more costs then the single prop aviation and can you be rated for both
 
Thanks for the quick replies!

Budget is +/- $50k or so. The sweet spot in this price range, appears to be a mid time Cherokee 180 with a hershey bar wing.

I'm not looking for the latest whizbang gadgets (not that that stuff isn't cool!), just basic, reliable transportation. That said, I'm amazed at the state of avionics nowadays. The stuff in many homebuilts is light years ahead of the stuff I use every day in a 737! Heck, the stuff available for an iPad is often better than the stuff on the Boeing.

I'm thinking somewhere around 800-1000 lb useful would be perfect. 2-3 adults and overnight bags for flights under 3 hours. The farthest I see myself flying the thing would be APF-TLH, and that would only be for another year or so when my daughter graduates, unless my son goes to FSU. Beyond that I'll go airline.

The Grumman line is one I've often overlooked, but I am gonna check them out too. I got a few hours in a Tiger back in the mid '80's, and it was a fun airplane. How is the parts/mx availability situation on these vs. a Piper or Cessna?

I've often considered building an RV-8 or the like (it would be the near perfect commuter for me) and might still do it someday, but right now, I'd like to stick with certified AC with a few more seats.


in that price range, I'd go with a 172 or cherokee 180. Good trainers and can be spec'd out pretty decent in your $$ range. Ron speaks highly of the Grumman's, so I'd definitely take that into consideration.
 
are the helos more costs then the single prop aviation and can you be rated for both

Helos are much more MX, and I am not rated for both, only airplanes.......
 
in that price range, I'd go with a 172 or cherokee 180. Good trainers and can be spec'd out pretty decent in your $$ range. Ron speaks highly of the Grumman's, so I'd definitely take that into consideration.

Those are the 3 I keep coming back to.......
 
Cessna 150? Beats driving right?

Not by much lol…

I'd say a Cherokee 180. But even that might be a little slow. 130NM in a 180 is still over a hour in the hot Florida sun with no A/C.

At 50K he doesn't have many other options though to get 800-1000 useful.

If I were going to have to do this trip 40 times a year like he says, I'd try to find an older Mooney (C/E) that can get to 150kts in cruise. MX will be more but not everything is about money when you're flying that often.
 
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what is mx and how long does it require to be rated for airplanes
 
are the helos more costs then the single prop aviation and can you be rated for both

Cost more, slower. Yes you can be rated in both, you can be rated in as many categories as you can afford. I got 3. Now I'm broke.
 
Not by much lol…

I'd say a Cherokee 180. But even that might be a little slow. 130NM in a 180 is still over a hour in the hot Florida sun with no A/C.

At 50K he doesn't have many other options though to get 800-1000 useful.

If I were going to have to do this trip 40 times a year like he says, I'd try to find an older Mooney (C/E) that can get to 150kts in cruise. MX will be more but not everything is about money when you're flying that often.


an arrow would also net another 15-20 knots, but that gets him into the retrac category.
 
what is mx and how long does it require to be rated for airplanes

MX = Maintenance.

I have no idea how long it takes nowadays for an Airplane SEL (or any other ratings for that matter), as I got my private ticket in 1984. I think I had around 50 hours total back then.

The last temporary certificate I had was about 20 years ago, when I got my 737 type rating....
 
an arrow would also net another 15-20 knots, but that gets him into the retrac category.

If I'm gonna go for a complex single, it'll probably either be a Comanche or maybe a Debonair, either of which would be a bit of an overkill for my needs, but they sure would be nice!

I've got about 350 hours in A-36s, a few in F-33s and about 30 in T-34s and they were wonderful airplanes, but I was being paid to fly them and someone else was paying for the mx/fuel.

I'd like to keep it simple and relatively inexpensive.

The manual gear, carbed O-360 short Mooneys were among my first considerations, (and I haven't ruled them out) but I really want to keep it simple.

The added 15 minutes or so in a Cherokee 180 etc. is probably not worth the difference in mx costs. 1:10 in an airplane is still far more pleasant and faster than the 3:00+ (sometimes up to 4:00 in season), 180 mile drive I've been doing more or less weekly for the last 13 years!
 
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what is mx and how long does it require to be rated for airplanes
Just wondering... is your BO quote intended to be ironic or do you really believes that?
 
The Grumman line is one I've often overlooked, but I am gonna check them out too. I got a few hours in a Tiger back in the mid '80's, and it was a fun airplane. How is the parts/mx availability situation on these vs. a Piper or Cessna?
After 37 years of Grumman ownership including Yankee, Cheetah, Cougar, and Tiger (in that order), I'd say just fine. For more on the Grummans, see:

http://www.aya.org
http://www.grumman.net
 
With that budget, I wouldn't fall too in love with any particular airframe, just look for the best 172/Cherokee/Grumman that you can find for the money. If it's just for one or two people, and you aren't stuck on a brand, research a couple different models and buy one that strikes your fancy. Something with decent paint/interior and less than mid-time engine should be pretty cheap to operate. :D
 
With that budget, I wouldn't fall too in love with any particular airframe, just look for the best 172/Cherokee/Grumman that you can find for the money. If it's just for one or two people, and you aren't stuck on a brand, research a couple different models and buy one that strikes your fancy. Something with decent paint/interior and less than mid-time engine should be pretty cheap to operate. :D

I'm not too picky on brand, although being an expat Long Islander, the Grumman is appealing...... :D

The search begins......

Since I worked at and learned to fly at KFRG, maybe I should get a Seabee? :eek:
 
I lose some of the non commuting utility with a 150, but that might be worth the offset in total costs.
 
The manual gear, carbed O-360 short Mooneys were among my first considerations, (and I haven't ruled them out) but I really want to keep it simple.

Ding,ding,ding.

M20G(long body). Sacrifice a few knots due to the 180HP vs the 200HP, it'll do what you want and the manual gear keeps the MX in line. Decent IFR, only problem is if you are a big guy, they can be somewhat close inside.

For fixed gear, I'm with Ron as usual. The 1975 AA5 Grumman is the right model. Or, go for the AA5-A Cheetah in later years. ;)
 
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I fly a newer liberty xl2 all over Florida. Base the plane In a hangar at SRQ . Full IFR,cruise 120 on 6.5 GPH. Only has two seats but would make a great commuter aircraft.
 
I lose some of the non commuting utility with a 150, but that might be worth the offset in total costs.

If it is ~120 nm, then the total travel time involved works out to:

Preflight: 10+ minutes (how fast are you?)
Fueling: 10+ minutes (might get 3 legs between fuelings.)
Taxi/departure: 10+ minutes

Actual cruise time between centers of airports (unrealistic but oft used) at various speeds:
120 nm/90 kts = 80 mins
120 nm/120 kts = 60 mins
120 nm/150 kts = 48 mins

Maneuvering into the pattern: ~5 minutes?
Arrival/taxi/postflight/tiedown: 10+ minutes?
Travel to/from airports at either end: ?

I'm guessing 45 minutes is consumed by the usual rituals required to aviate (I fully expect others to dispute these numbers) regardless of how long the cruise portion is, so the difference between a slow inexpensive 150/152 and a fast but more expensive Mooney is to cut a 2 hr 5 minute travel time to 1 hr 33 minute.
 
I second that.

Third! There will be A LOT left in your budget if you pick up a low to mid time IFR equipped 152. Maintenance costs will be lower, downtime minimal, and you will still travel much faster straight line than driving...

Kind of funny transitioning from a 152 to a 737 though :p
 
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If it is ~120 nm, then the total travel time involved works out to:

Preflight: 10+ minutes (how fast are you?)
Fueling: 10+ minutes (might get 3 legs between fuelings.)
Taxi/departure: 10+ minutes

Actual cruise time between centers of airports (unrealistic but oft used) at various speeds:
120 nm/90 kts = 80 mins
120 nm/120 kts = 60 mins
120 nm/150 kts = 48 mins

Maneuvering into the pattern: ~5 minutes?
Arrival/taxi/postflight/tiedown: 10+ minutes?
Travel to/from airports at either end: ?

I'm guessing 45 minutes is consumed by the usual rituals required to aviate (I fully expect others to dispute these numbers) regardless of how long the cruise portion is, so the difference between a slow inexpensive 150/152 and a fast but more expensive Mooney is to cut a 2 hr 5 minute travel time to 1 hr 33 minute.

Yeah, 90kts isn't gonna cut it.

120+ would be better. I was figuring around 1 hour airport to airport.

It's about 35 minutes to KIMM from my house, 111nm from KIMM to KISM then another 30 minute drive from KISM to KMCO, so the total time including preflight, securing etc. should be about 2:30 (possibly a bit less). Driving up to work usually takes me +- 3+10 (off season) to nearly 4 hours (in season). If I park at KMCO, I can knock off at least 30 minutes to the crew lounge vs. KISM, but I've heard it's ridiculously expensive to land/park a GA airplane at KMCO. Something to look into.

Coming home late at night, I typically make it from the south lot at KMCO to home in about 2:45-2:50, so the time savings is not as great.

Again, the cost vs. speed sweet spot seems to be a Cherokee 180, Archer, AA-5B etc. I need to find a local mx shop and discuss some of this stuff with them.

The short bodied Mooneys are enticing though.......
 
Don't forget you will bake alive in the Cherokee in the Florida heat/sun!

That's definitely a concern, but I'm not sure there's a way around that, with any of them, short of installing AC. I plan on hangaring it, so that'll help some preventing heat soak on the way to work in the daytime (typically late morning). I'll typically be coming home at night (unless the WX forces me to stay in MCO for the night), so it's not as much of an issue.

The sad thing is that the cockpits of the "Classic" 737s (-300/500s) I fly aren't much cooler in the cockpit while on the ground. I'm talking shirt wrinkling, triple digits on many of them until you get airborne.
 
Bunch of money and hassle to save half an hour. Possible to move closer to work?
Yeah, 90kts isn't gonna cut it.

120+ would be better. I was figuring around 1 hour airport to airport.

It's about 35 minutes to KIMM from my house, 111nm from KIMM to KISM then another 30 minute drive from KISM to KMCO, so the total time including preflight, securing etc. should be about 2:30 (possibly a bit less). Driving up to work usually takes me +- 3+10 (off season) to nearly 4 hours (in season). If I park at KMCO, I can knock off at least 30 minutes to the crew lounge vs. KISM, but I've heard it's ridiculously expensive to land/park a GA airplane at KMCO. Something to look into.

Coming home late at night, I typically make it from the south lot at KMCO to home in about 2:45-2:50, so the time savings is not as great.

Again, the cost vs. speed sweet spot seems to be a Cherokee 180, Archer, AA-5B etc. I need to find a local mx shop and discuss some of this stuff with them.

The short bodied Mooneys are enticing though.......
 
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