Let's talk about flying in the mountains.

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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I am in Angel Fire NM, right now and having a really good time. My kids both skied for the first time today and had an absolute blast. Looks like this will be a recurring vacation. I personally ache a lot and the altitude is causing me some issues. (look for my next post "Let's talk about altitude sickness")

Nonetheless. It is going to take me 12 hours to get home on Tuesday.
I couldn't help but notice the airstrip a half mile from where I am currently sitting.

This resort is somewhat of a bowl. The base is 8k feet and the tops are around 11k. I will try to get some photos tomorrow but I noticed the 3 layer lens clouds above some of the tops today.


Could an idiot like me just fly here with no training?
Given the plane can fly well over the tops, is it as simple as climbing to say 17k and clearing them and circling down into the bowl?


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You've got a chute, right? Seriously though, when you hit the ceiling multiple times over mountains you learn to respect them. @ 17K I assume you have oxygen, and your passengers also. I prefer to keep altitude between myself and mountain tops as your escape route doesn't have too many friendly options mountain flying. It is doable, what is your limit
 
If you are getting altitude sickness on the ski slope, what will it be like flying unpressurized way up at 17k?
 
NoHeat said:
If you are getting altitude sickness on the ski slope, what will it be like flying unpressurized way up at 17k?
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Un sure.
It was after being here about 10 hours when I started having issues.
I would estimate it wouldn't take me a half hour to get up over the tops here.

I seem to be okay as long as I am moving but when I pause, I feel like I am about to pass out. Water seems to help quite a bit.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Could an idiot like me just fly here with no training?
Given the plane can fly well over the tops, is it as simple as climbing to say 17k and clearing them and circling down into the bowl?


18866.jpg
Click to expand...

sure.
what's the worst that could happen?



but seriously, mountains and small planes are no joke. get a few hours of practice with a cfi and stay on the weather. just takes some more precaution to fly around cumulo-granite.
 
chevy72402 said:
You've got a chute, right? Seriously though, when you hit the ceiling multiple times over mountains you learn to respect them. @ 17K I assume you have oxygen, and your passengers also. I prefer to keep altitude between myself and mountain tops as your escape route doesn't have too many friendly options mountain flying. It is doable, what is your limit
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I have portable oxygen in the plane for 4. Not built in so to speak.
If the tops are 10k, is here an altitude above them where you don't get the crap kicked out of you?

Flying in Texas, I have zero experience with much other than the horizon.
 
2-3k was my minimum unless it was pretty dead calm. plan to go higher or scrub if the wind is perpendicular to a ridge line / mountain and 25-30knots or greater at altitude. higher winds speeds can generate some amazing up/down drafts.

I've been at power, 10-15 degree nose down and still climbing in some of the "mountainous" areas around GA and NC. the big mountains out west can be worse if the wind is really blowing.
 
From Texas to Angel Fire there are no mountains until you get almost right upon it. BUT,... AF is a tricky strip in that there is mainly one way in and one way out for a GA single.

Density altitude (or just plain altitude) is going to rip the guts out of it if you're non-turbo also.

If you can find some O2 to suk on that'll help the mountain bends.
 
txflyer said:
From Texas to Angel Fire there are no mountains until you get almost right upon it. BUT,... AF is a tricky strip in that there is mainly one way in and one way out for a GA single.

Density altitude (or just plain altitude) is going to rip the guts out of it if you're non-turbo also.

If you can find some O2 to suk on that'll help the mountain bends.
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I would like to know more about this.
So I am in non turbo. Maybe that is a deal breaker.

I haven't thought this through as I am still just speculating.
 
Sheesh! There's a nice highway from Cimmaron to KAXX. If the weather's VFR and the winds aren't howling, that'd be an excellent way to get in (just follow the road 500-1000'agl). If the winds are howling, or the ceilings are low, you wouldn't do it anyway, right?

Just make sure you know your performance numbers before going into a place like that.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
I am in Angel Fire NM, right now and having a really good time. My kids both skied for the first time today and had an absolute blast. Looks like this will be a recurring vacation. I personally ache a lot and the altitude is causing me some issues. (look for my next post "Let's talk about altitude sickness")

Nonetheless. It is going to take me 12 hours to get home on Tuesday.
I couldn't help but notice the airstrip a half mile from where I am currently sitting.

This resort is somewhat of a bowl. The base is 8k feet and the tops are around 11k. I will try to get some photos tomorrow but I noticed the 3 layer lens clouds above some of the tops today.


Could an idiot like me just fly here with no training?
Given the plane can fly well over the tops, is it as simple as climbing to say 17k and clearing them and circling down into the bowl?


18866.jpg
Click to expand...

Mountains ? not a problem.

http://dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_intro.html
 
Short answer: You could fly there just fine on a nice day.

Long answer: You have to know how to determine it's a "nice day". The winds are usually the problem at KAXX and density altitude. Quite a few crashes around there over the years. Winds aloft create significant mechanical turbulence in and around mountain ridge lines and in and above the valley there. Winds at the surface can be quite different than aloft and often crosswinds at KAXX. Mixed with the low performance of a non-turbo aircraft acting like it's already at cruise altitude when sitting on the ground, and really only one completely "safe" way out of that valley if you can't climb (south) you just have to pay close attention to performance numbers and wind in there.

Adiabatic or katabatic winds can also play a factor in any mountain valley in the mornings and evenings.

So... Honestly. Yes. Folk can fly in the mountains safely if they pay a good amount of attention and plan their entry and exits so they always have an "out" if the aircraft won't perform like they want it to.

KAXX is lower than some, higher than others, for performance numbers. The ridge lines around it are pretty high.

There'd be a summer "no go" temperature number there for me also, which I'd base on climb performance numbers.

Winter is better performance but also usually very high westerly winds aloft.

Generally I lean toward telling folks to do a couple of hours with a mountain CFI or at least some class work so they have some knowledge background to then at least ask the right questions to figure out "if it's nice up there".
 
NoHeat said:
If you are getting altitude sickness on the ski slope, what will it be like flying unpressurized way up at 17k?
Click to expand...

Why would you want to be at 17K ??
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Could an idiot like me just fly here with no training?
Given the plane can fly well over the tops, is it as simple as climbing to say 17k and clearing them and circling down into the bowl?
Click to expand...

I'd Get the training.
You can over fly the peaks, but Why? it is much safer and easier to see the rock, and go around. there are valleys use them.
 
Drink lots of water, no alcohol, no caffeine (coffee, colas, etc) and you'll feel better. If the headache isn't going away, get to lower altitude immediately.
 
I've flown in there in the Bonanza, no problems at all; performance-wise, you'd be fine in the Cirroid.

When Tommy and I went in, I had Dr. Dave in the right seat, and he has flown there numerous times, and I was glad for that, because he knew the right way in following the road (noted above), so no need to go way over.

It was a little windy and rough as a cob going in, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, but not scary-rough, just routine rough. Landing, once we got to the runway, we were partly masked by the 8' snow drifts, and landing was no big deal.

After a day of skiing, we thought we were stuck there (no overnight plans made), because most of the day the wind was really howling, extreme crosswind; but, right before we were ready to go, winds dropped to mere maximum crosswind levels, so we saddled-up and took off. Expected really rough air climbing out, but it was not bad at all, and we used some upslope lift to help.
 
There are no absolutes on wind and turbulence in mountainous areas. Especially during ski season.

You get what you get, but you should be fine.

8900' of runway is a lot of pavement.
 
Don't overthink it either...Let's say you conclude reasonably so, that maybe your level of proficiency isn't quite up to a Canyon Basin in a Non-Turbo Single with possible need for O2.

You could fly in to Raton/Crews RTN, rent a car there and save yourself a ton of time. Now however, your airport is at 6.5K instead of 8.5K (a decent difference) and you have largely flat to descending terrain in the vast majority of your 0-180 flight direction. All of sudden you've managed to eliminate about 90% of the riskiest element of your flight but still gotten 90% of the usefulness of flight.
 
90% of mountain flying problems can be solved by getting your flying done before 9:30am. This is more true in the warmer months.

My Cirrus had a turbo and I liked to fly it over the valleys in the mid-teens on O2. The air is much smother up there. Valleys offer way more options.

The biggest density altitude risk that seems to get flat landers isn't whether or not they have enough runway to land or take off, it's not thinking through the poor climb performance combined with downdrafts that cause them to hit terrain after departure.

You won't top clouds in a NA Cirrus in the Rockies. Maybe once in a while but not in the summer.
 
I'm assuming you are coming from Texas. Looking at a sectional you can fly a few miles up a pretty wide valley to get there. Its only 16.5nm? At that distance, you can probably see the airport from the valley entrance.

Looks completely doable.

Don't forget:

If the winds are up you can get severe turbulence. Check the weather before going into the valley, over 15kts I would land elsewhere.
Do a performance calculation. Outside of high summer DA's you should be fine.
Lean for takeoff
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This resort is somewhat of a bowl. The base is 8k feet and the tops are around 11k. I will try to get some photos tomorrow but I noticed the 3 layer lens clouds ...
Click to expand...

I go into Tahoe several times a year. Those lenticulars indicate some nasty turbulence! Found out the hard way one day out of South Shore. After banging our heads on the roof several times...landed at Minden just in time to see all the glidernuts running out to catch the lift....:eek:
Read up on wind action in the mountains. It doesn't take much to create downdrafts that will outsink your reduced climb rate. Following roads is a very good idea but too low and you're asking for trouble again with winds and potential sink rates.
 
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flyingriki said:
I go into Tahoe several times a year. Those lenticulars indicate some nasty turbulence! Found out the hard way one day out of South Shore. After banging our heads on the roof several times...landed at Minden just in time to see all the glidernuts running out to catch the lift....:eek:
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ROFL. Sounds like Boulder! :)

Friend did a wave flight earlier this year where they had to get off-tow because they couldn't keep the tow plane in sight in the turbulence penetrating the downwind side of the wave. They still made it through and hung out on the wave for hours.

They're kinda nuts up there. At least they all generally wear parachutes.
 
Do the Colorado Pilots course. It is fun.

http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp

Ray (the guy you met at KGLE when you were flying with your dad) and I did it last August. Good information and a great excuse to spend a few days in Colorado.

We are going to do some flying with a CFI this year in the same area, but skip the ground school.
 
Looks plenty long enough with out any obvious tricks, just be wind aware and take it easy, work you way up to higher temp operations, think you'd be fine.
 
texasag93 said:
Do the Colorado Pilots course. It is fun.

http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp

Ray (the guy you met at KGLE when you were flying with your dad) and I did it last August. Good information and a great excuse to spend a few days in Colorado.

We are going to do some flying with a CFI this year in the same area, but skip the ground school.
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PM me his number again. I had to factory reset my phone this weekend.
I lost all my contacts.

I told him I would give him a holler next time I go up and let him check out the plane.
 
Sometimes you just u don't have the option of going over the top.
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You could do it on your own but I would recommend taking an experienced mountain flyer instructor first. And do it in near perfect weather. Light winds, unlimited visibility and clear to 16k (or clear all they way up). Its better when the sun is shining. Emphasis in on leaning for best power (at full runup that high, at least at first), and slow climbs. Clear all ridges at 1000' or more. Take the safest option all the way.

Then do it on your own but only in near perfect weather.
 
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Leaning is important, but showing a student what it's like being on the windward side of a slope (and the benifits) vs the leeward side is very important, also simulating taking off in high DA conditions, picking your abort point on the runway, etc.
 
As many have mentioned, winds and turbulence are often the biggest issue. This is especially true at Angel Fire.

There is no magic altitude to get above it, either. Last May I was returning to Denver from Northern California in my turbo Mooney. Had a 30kt tailwind the whole way which increased to 70kt crossing the Colorado state line. Not good! I knew that crossing the Continental Divide was going to be a real rodeo in that wind, even though I was at FL210. I asked for ride reports and a King Air at FL290 reported moderate to severe turbulence crossing the Divide ahead of me. So I knew I couldn't outclimb it. I was tempted to land at Vail and wait it out, but I pressed on and paid the price: flew through 3 of most violent rotors I've ever experienced and put a nice crease in my skull from the headset band. All this in clear blue skies.
 
Only one joke/reference to pulling the parachute? You guys have gotten soft.
 
AXX doesnt look too bad. Plenty of room in that valley to turn around if approaching from the south. But when i fly over there from NTX id just land LVS and rent a car. You'll need one anyway. Then u really dont have to worry about getting stuck on departure.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Clear all ridges at 1000' or more. Take the safest option all the way.
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I've planned for and played that game and still lost and had to execute the "out" option.

I was damed close to pulling the plug crossing Corona Pass on the outbound leg to go get the monkey but I knew where the rotor/downers usually "sit" in the conditions we had that day and where the up elevator usually starts. Just west of BJC I was at Vy and sinking over 1000 fpm. By Eldora I was going up 2000 fpm with the engine at idle and the airspeed pushing toward the yellow arc. I had planned to cross with 2000' AGL. In reality I ended up crossing with 1000'.

That's probably the hardest thing to explain to new mountain pilots, the sheer insanity of the performance numbers when the wind is blowing up there. Without having done that same crossing both with and without a mountain CFI many times over the years, I would have bailed out to the southeast and went around.

Learning the mental gymnastics to tell if there's still time to make the decision to bail is the thing the experience and time gets you up there. Also learning to see the sink rate by looking out the window (is the ridgeline going up in the window or down?) and maintain airspeed knowing it's going to go bonkers and to listen and feel what's happening, is best learned with someone who's done it before.

Like you said, when you're new at it, err on the side of caution and bail. The performance of normally aspirated aircraft at these altitudes is abysmal compared to the forces involved when the wind comes ripping across the Rockies.

Did you see on that thread where an old coot (probably CFI) heard me tell the APA ground controller I needed a northwest departure to go over Corona that day and he mashed his PTT and freaked out telling me there was a PIREP for moderate turbulence near Boulder? I actually appreciated that he did it, knowing if I wasn't already properly prepped and knew that already, he might have been saving someone's life.

The controller wasn't super impressed with his intrusion but I was able to respond to the taxi clearance and add that I knew about the PIREP, to hopefully put the old guy's mind at ease. He and I both knew that it was an "iffy" day to cross Corona with the knowns that morning. My plan was always to bail out and go around if it wouldn't work. Once in the Kremmling valley, it's all downhill to Grand Junction if you don't get lost.

We've all seen too many wrecks around here. You get to where you don't want to see another one. I can't blame the guy for saying something that day at all.

Getonit said:
Only one joke/reference to pulling the parachute? You guys have gotten soft.
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It's a PITA to bust out the snowmobiles and go get people out of the forest. Getting airplanes out of trees is a pain, too. Haha.
 
Angel Fire is not a particularly challenging mountain airport IF there isn't a strong crosswind. If there is... watch out. Even if the current weather looks okay, if there are strong westerly winds in the area and at altitude, it could change at AXX at any time. Just have a plan B. There are easier airports in the area.
 
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