Let the crazy begin...

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by FP1000, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    First post, new guy here.

    A little introduction, and then some thoughts. I turn 45 next month, and I’ve decided getting my PPL is going to be my birthday present to myself. Married 20 years, have five kids. Favorite hobbies are motorcycles and SCUBA. My wife says I only choose expensive hobbies. She has no idea! I live in Utah, but work in Wyoming.

    I do the commute once a month, it’s about nine or 10 hours drive from home, and I work for 10 days straight, then I’m home again. Flying would be ideal as it’s 370 nautical miles from my local airport to the Wyoming airport. Three of my colleagues are pilots.

    As a lurker, I want to tell all of POA first of all, you guys are some of the nicest forum individuals I’ve ever seen. Even when you are ragging on someone, you do so with politeness and kindness. Lots of respect. And number two, you guys love acronyms more than anyone I’ve ever met. I mean, YGLAMTAIEM.
     
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  2. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    I have several options in terms of finding a CFI. There are several local airports, all of which have some instructors. If any of you are local and have some insight, I would love to hear it.
    My local airports:
    Provo Municipal Airport (KPVU), controlled since 2005. 2 asphalt runways. Elevation 4494 ft. 471 daily aircraft operations average.


    Spanish Fork -Springville Airport (KSPK), no control, 1 asphalt runway. Elev 4530 ft. 75 aircraft operations daily.

    South Valley Regional Airport (U42), no control. 1 asphalt runway. Elevation 4603 ft. 208 daily operations average.

    Heber City Municipal Airport (KHCR), no control. 5637 ft elevation. 1 asphalt runway, 53 operations daily.

    In Wyoming, the local airport that I Will be flying into is the following.

    Gillette-Campbell County Airport (KGCC), controlled, 2 concrete runways. Elev 4364 ft. 47 daily aircraft operations.
     
  3. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach I ♥ Banners

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    Hmm...I must have missed that part over the last several years LOL

    Best of luck!
     
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  4. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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  5. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    Because of my schedule, I Am looking to study under FAR 61, doing all of the “ground school” essentially on my own. I’ve read a handful of reviews here for online and book learning stuff. And personally tend to learn better after having done the reading on my own, and then utilizing a mentor. Happy to start flight school simultaneously. I would spend two or three weeks doing the flight stuff (while home), Then have to go to work and I would be grounded entirely during that time, but can get flight time in Wyoming at the beginning or end of my work cycle. Thoughts on getting flight time under two different instructors at different facilities?

    Finally, i’ve heard some individuals report that they feel one hour of flight time is about all the student can or should take at a time, but I would prefer to do two or three hours in the air at a time. For my schedule, I would prefer to do to two two or three hour flights a week during my off time.
     
  6. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    Maybe the other forums that I frequent are just meaner and nastier than usual.
     
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  7. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

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    Noted. Be aware that your brain can be pretty fried after a good intense lesson. A two or three hour flight may be counter-productive for the last hour or 90 minutes. That may be wasting both time and money. If you think you can do it, go ahead and try it, but after a few long flights you may feel like you should scale it back a bit. Remember, it is supposed to be fun!

    -Skip
     
  8. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    Yea.. don't over saturate yourself... especially in the beginning... You can do the two-three hour stuff while you're building solo hours. Other than that I wouldn't get too aggressive... IMHO (there's an acronym for ya)
     
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  9. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

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    You mean initialism ;)

    Yeah, you pick hobbies like I do. Sounds like you have a good case for flying though.

    Best of luck.
     
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  10. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    Technicalities, technicalities!
     
  11. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Well, ever since the spin zone disappeared :)
     
  12. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach I ♥ Banners

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    You can certainly try 1.5-2 hour lessons, but anything above that isn't going to gain you anything and could potentially be harmful to your learning potential. You are much better off doing three or four 1 - 1.5 hour lessons a week. Especially as a PPL. This is talked about in the Aviation Instructor Handbook as well.
     
  13. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Unfortunately we have to cater to the thinnest-skinned person who reports other people the most. Otherwise it wouldn’t be so bad.

    Welcome.
     
  14. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    It's been frequently shown in the practical world, that most new flight students can only stand about 90-ish minutes before the ability to take on more instruction greatly diminishes.

    Expect early flights to be about 60 minutes as the instructor gauges how well you are absorbing the new information and skills. Then as you get more proficient, expect lessons to be about 90 minutes.

    On each end of the flying, there should be a ground brief and debrief that lasts about 15-20 minutes.

    And your plan of training 2 to 3 times per week is a good one. You will see skills progressing at a good pace, and keep your dollar budget on track.
     
  15. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach I ♥ Banners

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    Aviation Instructor Handbook: "A beginning student reaches a point where additional practice is not only unproductive, but may even be harmful. When this point is reached, errors increase, and motivation declines. As a student gains experience, longer periods of practice are profitable."

    I did 1.5-2 hour lessons for Instrument/Commercial. I can't imagine doing 3 hours as a Private Pilot LOL.
     
  16. Challenged

    Challenged Pattern Altitude

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    Welcome! Flying with a few different instructors would be good idea at some point, but if you gel with the first one there wouldn't be a rush. It's always nice to fly with other guys though and I usually always learn something from doing so. If you don't own an airplane it can also be a good way to check out a few different makes and models. Speaking of owning, are all of your kids grown and moved away? Just curious if you have visions of hauling the family around or you solely want to ease your commute. You sound like you have the hard part already done, you've got the wife on board and as a bonus, you've got 3 co-workers who want to talk about airplanes.
     
  17. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you really want to accelerate things by doing more than 1.5/day, do one lesson in the morning and one in the afternoon. As for using two instructors, it can be helpful to be exposed to slightly different ways of doing things, and different teaching techniques, but be aware that Instructor A probably won't recognize items logged by Instructor B. What I mean is, certain boxes need to be checked (figuratively speaking), and any instructor signing you off for solo, or x-country, will want to have seen you demonstrate competence in all areas. At least, I would. Of course, what you've learned with Instructor B stays with you.
     
  18. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    Guys, great info here. Keep it up!

    I haven’t made my final decision but spoke to a group today. They service out of two airports, have two of the same planes (they carry doubles of all planes and have around 10-12 planes total), use a TCO and syllabus, they utilize multiple instructors who pick up where the last one left off, according to the teaching log. Scheduling and maintenance are obviously better this way. The airports are about 25 miles apart, I live right in the middle. This looks great, I’m meeting with their chief instructor next week, my medical exam is tomorrow.

    Oh, and my wife? Not so much on board...
    And the kids are all still at home.
     
  19. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers


    Reported
     
  20. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers
    You'll be buying a plane then, if you plan to keep it for 10 days at a time while away for work.

    So, let's skip the looooong threads of debate and discussion we all know are coming, and spend your money now for you. (we're nice like that too) ;)

    Bo.
     
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  21. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    So kind of you...
     
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  22. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Please tell us you have read the application thoroughly and that you aren't going to bomb into the flight surgeon's office and get deferred or denied. Were there any yes answers to question 18? Any history of SSRI meds or ADHD meds/dx's? Any run ins with the law where alcohol or controlled substances were involved?

    There are sooo many ways a new person can eff up their first medical which in turn effs up their flying dream. It is very important to know everything you should know about the process BEFORE you see the flight surgeon.
     
  23. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Below is one of my copy/paste items about the FAA application for a medical certificate.



    To gain confidence, and more importantly, knowledge, of what is involved with obtaining your first medical certificate, start by reviewing the instruction manual for MedXpress, the FAA's online form for applying for a medical. You can find that here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf

    Scroll down to page 24 of 36. This is where they ask about any medications you are currently taking (Question 17). If there are none, move to the next section. But if there are some, you will be asked to list the names, dosage, and frequency. Most medications are permitted. Some are not and will be a show stopper. Others may be an indicator of a medical item that the FAA will want to know more about. In many cases, the FAA will need a letter from your treating doctor that mention the medications, why they were prescribed, and how well they are helping you. During the examination, the Aviation Medical Examiner will ask questions about the medications and the doctors letter, fill in some blanks, and make notations on his side of the application form.

    Now scroll down to page 26 of 36. This is the medical history section (Question 18). An important phrase here is "Have you ever in your life..." Review these items and see if any should be answered yes. If one or more is answered yes, then definitely do not go to an AME to obtain a medical certificate until you thoroughly know what the FAA is going to want to know about the item you checked as yes.

    Some of these are minor and the documentation required is also minor. Others are big, BIG things, and while they might not be show stoppers, you will have to obtain more things that are the right things and in the right format and order in order to satisfy the FAA.

    Again, do not go to an AME for a live exam until you know what information and documentation the FAA wants for the item(s) you marked "yes"​

    How do you find out what the FAA wants? The best way is to have a consultation visit with an AME. This visit does not get reported to the FAA. All it is is a information gather visit with the medical examiner to find out what you need to obtain. If you are unable to find an AME in your area to do this, then reach out to Dr. Bruce Chien in Bolingbrook, IL, www.aeromedicaldoc.com Dr. Bruce is a member here and can answer your questions online. But direct emails are often more efficient and allow him to discuss things in a way he cannot on a public form.


    Another important area of Question 18 is Question 18v. Alcohol and drug related motor vehicle actions. Question 18v asks about a history of “arrests or convictions involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.” This would include arrests or convictions for offenses that were reduced to a lower offense, such as careless driving. This also includes offenses that were expunged by the courts after a certain time period. Pilots who have been ticketed for operating under the influence while driving a golf cart or a boat have also been required to report these offenses. Remember, your signature on the Form authorizes the FAA to search the National Drivers Register.

    Do not try to lie or fib or skirt the issue here.... if you are found out... it is major bad voodoo.

    If you do have an alcohol offense in your past, it is not a showstopper. But there will be some added steps to demonstrate to the FAA that you are worthy of the certificate in spite of alcohol being a part of your past life.

    Moving on, look at page 28 of 36 and Question 19, which asks questions about medical professionals. If all of your past doctor visits have been routine things with no major medical issues. Then the FAA will say all is good, thanks for telling us about the visits. But if there were visits for particular medical things, then additional explanations about the reason for the visit, and the doctor's findings will be needed.
     
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  24. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    There are so many "I want to learn to fly and then use it for work..." threads and most don't seem based in any reality. They are often about what plane to buy (182) But your scenario sounds more thought out and practical. I had to look at your training area...damn will that be some beautiful flying country.

    Your training will give you some great experience that us flatlanders are spooked by...high density altitude (DA) and extended takeoff rolls and leaning. It will be second nature to you (good!). And your travel wish seems very realistic. Looks like some mountains you can go around on either side with enough airports to abort at many places along the way. If it was any shorter it could make for a perfect "long" solo cross country but I think its a bit long for that. Maybe you could do about 1/2 or 2/3's of your work route for your long solo cross country.

    One of the airports you mentioned (U42?) is under the Bravo airspace. Definitely get some time in/out of there. Flying under and around the Bravo airspace from day 1 is a good thing if you ask me. If I was given a choice of a towered airport or untowered airport for PPL my first choice would be a sleepy towered airport (a Delta) where you can still get in lots of takeoffs and landings but also get good at the radios starting on lesson # 1. People that train only at un-towered airports are often intimidated by control towers and ATC. Yes, they have to fly into a Delta to meet a minimum PPL requirement but its not the same as if its every single lesson. And the tower is looking out for you too. If the airport you train at is really, really busy you might get in less takeoff/landing cycles in a training session and that might be a reason to find a less busy airport.

    Another thing about picking a place to train is the number of runways. If there is just 1 and its really windy and you are learning to land it can be frustrating and the instructor may even call it that day until you are more ready. Once you have solo'd you probably won't be great at crosswind landings yet so a airport with more than 1 runway (and not parallel) will get you more flight time and a bit less risk if you go up and its windier than you thought.

    I trained at age 50. I think 90 minutes was really my limit, especially when learning to land. But often its a 2hr block. 15min of ground, fly about 75-90 minutes and another 15 minutes of ground. If I was going to schedule more flight time it would be a early morning and late evening.

    Late evening is so awesome for flying (at least early learning). The winds are down and its cooler.

    Doing all this with little kids will be tough but keep going. You will feel like 300 people are all needing your time. You will find the PPL training time a great escape from work and family stuff, even on the frustrating days.

    Good luck on your medical..the first and most important step!
     
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  25. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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  26. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    So I’m on no meds and I only drink when driving to keep the withdrawal shakes down.
     
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  27. Cici

    Cici Pre-Flight

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    Im sort of like george constanza in that i need to do something, process and theb come back to make adjustments. Hence the lessons going <1.5 hrs. The jerk store called....

    The work thing is tough....i have the opportunity to fly myself for work (denver to west texas) w/ reimbursement and have yet to do it. Planes are always available, but I'm always too scared of wanting to be back home by friday and pushing my limits too much if the weather gets a little rowdy. Plus, work gets to be a little intense while im down there and i cant always manage my sleep like i would want to. Maybe this summer when the weather is more predictable.....bonus though, the whole family gets airfare taken care of for an international trip once a year.....good luck!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  28. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    Welcome!
     
  29. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach I ♥ Banners

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    That’s good. FAA says no bottles - 8 hours bottle to throttle. Cans are fine though.






    Disclaimer: sarcasm
     
  30. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    LOL

    I’ve seen others say that same phrase here at POA and honestly couldn’t figure out what it meant. The context was off so I had no clues. No alcohol for me in 30 years.
     
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  31. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It’s never too late!
     
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  32. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    FAR §91.17
     
  33. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    You will learn that in your pilot training ground school. 8 Hrs bottle to throttle is the rule, and .04% BAC.

    Sec. 91.17

    Alcohol or drugs.

    (a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft--
    (1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
    (2) While under the influence of alcohol;
    (3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
    [(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.]

    (b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.
    (c) A crewmember shall do the following:
    [ (1) On request of a law enforcement officer, submit to a test to indicate the alcohol concentration in the blood or breath, when--]

    (i) The law enforcement officer is authorized under State or local law to conduct the test or to have the test conducted; and
    (ii) The law enforcement officer is requesting submission to the test to investigate a suspected violation of State or local law governing the same or substantially similar conduct prohibited by paragraph (a)(1), (a)(2), or (a)(4) of this section.
    [(2) Whenever the FAA has a reasonable basis to believe that a person may have violated paragraph (a)(1), (a)(2), or (a)(4) of this section, on request of the FAA, that person must furnish to the FAA the results, or authorize any clinic, hospital, or doctor, or other person to release to the FAA, the results of each test taken within 4 hours after acting or attempting to act as a crewmember that indicates an alcohol concentration in the blood or breath specimen.]
    (d) Whenever the Administrator has a reasonable basis to believe that a person may have violated paragraph (a)(3) of this section, that person shall, upon request by the Administrator, furnish the Administrator, or authorize any clinic, hospital, doctor, or other person to release to theAdministrator, the results of each test taken within 4 hours after acting or attempting to act as a crewmember that indicates the presence of any drugs in the body.
    (e) Any test information obtained by the Administrator under paragraph (c) or (d) of this section may be evaluated in determining a person's qualifications for any airman certificate or possible violations of this chapter and may be used as evidence in any legal proceeding under section
    602, 609, or 901 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958.


    Amdt. 91-291, Effective 7/21/2006
     
  34. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    Same here. Best decision of my life; I based it on the mistakes of others, not me!
     
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  35. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    OP, street bikes or dirt bikes? I ride single track on my YZ 2-strokes.
     
  36. FP1000

    FP1000 Filing Flight Plan

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    So the training company that I’ve been talking with has the following planes, and they keep an extra set of functioning planes (doubles) at another airport with CFIs at that facility as well (they train out of both). The second airport is about 25 miles south of the first airport.

    They are telling me the sport cruiser is the one to train on for my PPL. Thoughts, observations? As an LSA, How will that affect my overall readiness to take on a larger plane down the road?

    Diamond DA-20
    N802CT - A Diamond DA-20 with a Lycoming IO-240B engine. $125/hr wet

    Piper Cherokee 140 D
    N7625F - A Piper Cherokee 140D with a Lycoming engine. $90/hr wet

    Diamond DA-40
    N321PF - A Diamond DA-40 with a Lycoming IO-360 engine. $175/hr wet

    Piper Arrow IV
    N160LL - A Piper Arrow IV (PA-28RT) with a Lycoming IO-360 engine. $175/hr wet

    Piper Sport Cruiser
    N802PS - A Piper Sport Cruiser with a Rotax 912 ULS engine. $99/hr wet
     
  37. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

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    I think you just described POA :);)
     
  38. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Note he says "Most". Some of us got the 40 hour min met in the first flight.
     
  39. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    I suggest the Cherokee 140 for training PPL.
     
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  40. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    @FP1000 don’t forget, those numbers are without an instructor so the DA40, for example, might be more like $230/hr