Legality of taking out seats?

[Tom-D]

Those pilots should have asked him to show them where in the regs they were not in compliance. My W&B was done with empty fuel yet I'm allowed to add at my discretion providing I stay within the W&B limits. Why are seats any different? Show me in the regs. I'm genuinely interested.

Pretty easy question, You re required by the type certificate to fly your aircraft IAW the placards & type certificate given by the manufacturer, these placards include your POH/Owners manual. IF -- IF This does not give authorization to re-configure the aircraft and commute new weight and balance for that configuration. you are illegal.

You can get a letter of authorization from the FAA, if they agree that this is a pilot action. It is nearly the same as a amendment to the POH/Owner's manual.

 

[Stewartb]

I don't agree. My W&B has a copy of my TCDS attached to it. I don't see anything that requires seats to be installed. Heck, every air taxi I know adds and pulls seats on pretty much every flight. So do most private guys around me. There's nothing wrong in doing so according to my TCDS and that's all I care about. You other guys should read yours and make your own decisions.

 

[Tom-D]

read block 6 of your airworthiness certificate.

 

[Tom-D]

I don't agree. My W&B has a copy of my TCDS attached to it. I don't see anything that requires seats to be installed. Heck, every air taxi I know adds and pulls seats on pretty much every flight. So do most private guys around me. There's nothing wrong in doing so according to my TCDS and that's all I care about. You other guys should read yours and make your own decisions.

If it OK to remove seats with no authority, why does the Atley Dodge foldem up seats come with a STC?

 

[Tom-D]

I don't agree. My W&B has a copy of my TCDS attached to it. I don't see anything that requires seats to be installed. Heck, every air taxi I know adds and pulls seats on pretty much every flight. So do most private guys around me. There's nothing wrong in doing so according to my TCDS and that's all I care about. You other guys should read yours and make your own decisions.

does your Empty weight change when you remove seats ?

 

[Stewartb]

Because the floor tracks and attachments are structural. Once installed the pilot can add or remove the seats as desired. My back seats had quick release function by design from the factory.

 

[FastEddieB]

Unless the POH specifies, how would one know how much weight the floor beneath the seats is capable of supporting?

I don't think it's safe to assume it's the weight of the removed seats plus typical passenger weight. Why? Because it's the seat attachment points that are designed to support the weight of the seat and passengers - not the floor exposed once they are removed.

Throw a 300lb load back there and then hit a 3g gust and you may have close to a half ton of weight bearing down on what might just be a thin aluminum or even a plywood floor. Which, upon failure, could interfere with controls or wiring or hydraulic lines or who-knows-what.

Likely? Probably not. Possible? Certainly.

 

[Wheels]

I don't agree. My W&B has a copy of my TCDS attached to it. I don't see anything that requires seats to be installed. Heck, every air taxi I know adds and pulls seats on pretty much every flight. So do most private guys around me. There's nothing wrong in doing so according to my TCDS and that's all I care about. You other guys should read yours and make your own decisions.

The fact that your TCDS lists a maximum number of seats makes it reasonable to think that you can operate with less than that number. A lot of type certificates list the number of seats and doesn't say maximum so the plane is expected to operate with all seats installed.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I would have thought that if you take the back seat out you will probably crash into a school for the children of personal injury attorneys.

Utility class typically has different weight limits because the allowed range of maneuvers is expanded and you have to allow for the increased load factors which would have nothing to do with whether or not the rear seat is "structural".

 

[N801BH]

I would have thought that if you take the back seat out you will probably crash into a school for the children of personal injury attorneys.

Utility class typically has different weight limits because the allowed range of maneuvers is expanded and you have to allow for the increased load factors which would have nothing to do with whether or not the rear seat is "structural".

 

[Wheels]

I would have thought that if you take the back seat out you will probably crash into a school for the children of personal injury attorneys.

Utility class typically has different weight limits because the allowed range of maneuvers is expanded and you have to allow for the increased load factors which would have nothing to do with whether or not the rear seat is "structural".

Ok, but why does the type certificate restrict you to only operating in utility class when the seats aren't installed? Why doesn't it allow you to decide that you aren't going to do any maneuvers that would exert loads outside the normal range and load the plane to the full weight? (I am actually trying to learn something here, not just being argumentative)

 

[drotto]

As other have said, Piper has a quick release system in some of their planes. The Sartogas have a little button that you can depress, and the rear most seats will slide out. Out is easy, getting them back in place is a pain in the ass. I found an old parts list for a Cherokee 6 that listed the rear seats at 14.5 lbs each, but I have not seen a label on the seats themselves. Of course weight may vary depending on exact seat and upholstery used.

 

[Tom-D]

Because the floor tracks and attachments are structural. Once installed the pilot can add or remove the seats as desired. My back seats had quick release function by design from the factory.

Does your POH/Owner's manual give the W&B info needed to calculate the CG in both configurations ?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Ok, but why does the type certificate restrict you to only operating in utility class when the seats aren't installed? Why doesn't it allow you to decide that you aren't going to do any maneuvers that would exert loads outside the normal range and load the plane to the full weight? (I am actually trying to learn something here, not just being argumentative)

hellifiknow. Were I to guess, I would think that whoever wrote the certificate was thinking that if you have the seat out you are hauling a whole bunch of junk and using it in "utility" mode rather than just passenger hauling mode and would be more likely to be banging it around on unimproved strips or whatever. But that is just a guess.

Normal category you design to 3.8G, utility 4.0.

 

[Palmpilot]

This thread is turning out to be very educational, at least with regard to the issues to be considered.

 

[el con]

I have a 1972 PA-28 180 G
No tools needed for rear seat remove, front legs slide into slotted hardware rear legs have arrow head type ends that clip into the hardware in the 1/2" plywood floor.
Battery not under rear seat but behind baggage area rear bulkhead access panel.
I flew all last summer with the seats out, I did not crash,I did not harm school children.
I'm going to check my POH tonight.

I will ask about weight and balance though.
The rear seats besides no tool removal are folding also, are you saying I need to do weight and balance if the seatbacks are upright or folded forward?
And further more the front seats are on adjustable tracks, during flight the pilot or front passenger may decide to move them forward or back, do I then become distracted by measuring everyone and do a quick WB on the fly so to speak? I think not.
And then there is my 40lb dog that moves about in the back of the rear seat/ baggage area.
I think if common sense prevails on most of this no adverse problems will arise. I suppose I could be mistaken .

 

[JC150]

No tools needed for rear seat remove, front legs slide into slotted hardware rear legs have arrow head type ends that clip into the hardware in the 1/2" plywood floor. Battery not under rear seat but behind baggage area rear bulkhead access panel.

My piper is the same way, and the POH even states: "The rear seats are easily removed to provide room for bulky items."

So, I had 2 separate weight and balances done, however, when I got some new avionics work done, they refused to amend the second W&B with the two rear seats removed because the Type Certificate doesn't allow me to remove the rear seats and fly in the utility category unlike some other pa28s.

Seems silly, but it sounds like I *legally* can't fly with the two rear seats removed even with a second W&B.

 

[el con]

For my PA 28-180 G Cherokee:
All I can find in my POH is that "the rear seats may be removed for easy loading of bulky items."
There is a chart for standard and utility W+B in the back of the book with no further explanation as to when or why.
That leads me to believe it's legal to take out and put in seats as the pilot see's fit for the mission. A typical W+ B would be in order for either category.

 

[david0tey]

Someone I know just took them out himself out of a Beech Musketeer to make room for a couple of furry PilotsNPaws transports. He didn't even consider getting a new W&B done. Guess I shouldn't fly with that guy again.:wink2:

 

[N801BH]

Someone I know just took them out himself out of a Beech Musketeer to make room for a couple of furry PilotsNPaws transports. He didn't even consider getting a new W&B done. Guess I shouldn't fly with that guy again.:wink2:

That "guy" must have been very lucky......

Hope he filed a flight plan......

 

[el con]

That "guy" must have been very lucky......

Hope he filed a flight plan......

Flight plan? What's that?


The rear seats weigh next to nothing and I never fly even close to gross whenever I put the" bulky items" in(I strap them down not the dog though).
If they needed to be there to be legal they should have bolted them in and put a placard in view,heck maybe welded them in. They were especially designed to remove them.
When at annual last year my AP asked me to put them in for inspection, it took all of 60 secs or so. Nice design!