legal to spin?

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Is it legal to Spin a C-150 with a Bush Stall kit installed?

There is no alteration of the POH and the STC makes no mention of spins.

the question is, the aircraft as certified was spin able, but does the modification effect the certification?
 
Interesting question, but I would say in the absence of a placard prohibiting spins that spins are still approved, if still possible.
 
Assuming the spin AD has been complied with, I see no reason why not. It was legal before the STC and you say the STC doesn't change the limitations. What more would there be? Of course, no Cessna 150 has an AFM/POH, just an owner's manual and a TCDS, but that is probably just a matter of semantics in
Tom's original post.
 
Ron Levy said:
Assuming the spin AD has been complied with, I see no reason why not. It was legal before the STC and you say the STC doesn't change the limitations. What more would there be? Of course, no Cessna 150 has an AFM/POH, just an owner's manual and a TCDS, but that is probably just a matter of semantics in
Tom's original post.
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I used the term POH because most would understand what it is, and the Owners manual does basically the same thing, and it is part of the placarding, telling us how to operate the aircraft and of course has nothing in it about modifications.

the STC owners are of no help because they will not return any contacts. and the STC does mot mention spins.

And Yes the aircraft has the AD complied with by replacement of the parts listed. (It's not placarded out as it allows in the second method of compliance).
 
First, the old owners manuals are not the same thing, or even nearly the same thing, as a POH developed IAW Part 23 -- way, way less information, and in many cases, not including the limitations and required placards, leaving the owner to research it on his/her own via the TCDS.

Second, if the STC included a prohibition against spins, an appropriate placard and alteration to the OEM maneuvers placard (which specifically permits spins) would be required as part of the modification process.

So, if the STC did include a spin prohibition, the only way this plane could get to you as it is would be if the IA who approved the modification work failed to do his/her job properly, or someone illegaly removed the placard and subsequent IA's failed to do their job during subsequent annuals.

As for what to do now, if the STC holder won't return your calls, call the FAA ACO which has oversight of that STC -- they should be able to answer the question.
 
I thought I remember reading somewhere that it isn't legal. It's possible I was reading about a specific kit, where the rules may not pertain to others.

Please take what I say with a grain of salt - I really have no idea what I'm talking about. :)
 
alfadog said:
See the below thread. You may have an issue:

http://www.cessnaowner.org/forums/topic.html?id=5021
Click to expand...
Note in that discussion there is mention of a placard. Tom says there is no placard on the plane he's looking at. See what I said a couple of posts up about folks not doing their job properly. Kudos to Tom for following up on this when he smelled old fish, and not just letting it go. I hope he gets resolution with either the STC holder or the ACO before signing the annual.
 
Ron Levy said:
Note in that discussion there is mention of a placard. Tom says there is no placard on the plane he's looking at. See what I said a couple of posts up about folks not doing their job properly. Kudos to Tom for following up on this when he smelled old fish, and not just letting it go. I hope he gets resolution with either the STC holder or the ACO before signing the annual.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the other web page is talking about, because I read the STC and there is no mention of any placard. and the STC isn't in public domain so I don't expect much help from the FAA. the company no longer answers the phone listed, I'm wondering if they went wireless and haven't updated the contact info.

I still may be missing a page or, is there a different version?

And the aircraft's interior is tore up like a can of kraut. and much is removed, and new on order.

If STC is no longer supported, by any one and all the FAA will do is send you a new copy, which I may get, but later.

Many folks get the Bush conversion mod and the Horton stall kit confused..
 
Ron Levy said:
Note in that discussion there is mention of a placard. Tom says there is no placard on the plane he's looking at. See what I said a couple of posts up about folks not doing their job properly. Kudos to Tom for following up on this when he smelled old fish, and not just letting it go. I hope he gets resolution with either the STC holder or the ACO before signing the annual.
Click to expand...

This is the first annual on this 150 for me, and a stall kit is a pretty obvious mod and I always see they are properly documented, But thanks for the Kudo.

This aircraft is fast becoming my best bad example of an owner buying a POS. and it is fast becoming a very good teaching tool.
 
Ron Levy said:
First, the old owners manuals are not the same thing, or even nearly the same thing, as a POH developed IAW Part 23 -- way, way less information, and in many cases, not including the limitations and required placards, leaving the owner to research it on his/her own via the TCDS.
Click to expand...
The 1969 C-15-J owners manual is almost exactly like the later versions in as much as the W/B is there as well as the limitations, So For the purpose of this thread the POH/owners manual are terms we all know and will suffice.
OBTW the TCDS was issued for all 150s in 1958, but the production certificate for the "J" wasn't approved until 1968, that is why this Owners manual looks like all the later versions of the 100 series cessnas, you must look at the front cover to see what it is.

Here is a link to all the Free manuals for the cessnas.

http://www.micro-tools.net/pdf/Cessna/
 
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Tom-D said:
I have no idea what the other web page is talking about, because I read the STC and there is no mention of any placard. and the STC isn't in public domain so I don't expect much help from the FAA.
Click to expand...
The data must be on file with the ACO, and the ACO must tell you what's in it in that case. The only thing not being in the public domain means is you can't use the STC without the holder's permission, which one assumes was properly obtained from the holder at the time the work was done.
 
Ron Levy said:
The data must be on file with the ACO, and the ACO must tell you what's in it in that case. The only thing not being in the public domain means is you can't use the STC without the holder's permission, which one assumes was properly obtained from the holder at the time the work was done.
Click to expand...

It has been my experience that that unless the STC is in public domain the FAA will only refer you to the holder of the STC.

Yes it was properly bought and applied long ago. the owner has legal rights to the STC.

My problem is, Do I need a Placard, or not?

If it can't be spun, why was the rudder stops upgraded ?

Oh the Joys of the first annual by a new IA.

This owner has only owned this aircraft a little over a year, this is his second annual the first was done by a Mechanic as a pre buy, but that is a whole different horror story.
 
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