Left Break?

A

alland

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alland
I was wondering if anyone can explain this please ...

I was listening in to ATC at my local field the other day and a guy heading in came on the radio to the tower and said " This may seem a strange request, but can I do a left break please"
The guy in the tower came back on and replied " you want to do a left break in a C150 ? " he then chuckled out aloud and said " Ok left break approved " ....

Never heard this before and wondered what manouver it referred to.
 
alland said:
I was wondering if anyone can explain this please ...

I was listening in to ATC at my local field the other day and a guy heading in came on the radio to the tower and said " This may seem a strange request, but can I do a left break please"
The guy in the tower came back on and replied " you want to do a left break in a C150 ? " he then chuckled out aloud and said " Ok left break approved " ....

Never heard this before and wondered what manouver it referred to.
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Only RV's are allowed to do a break........:yes::lol:
 
The maneuver is an overhead approach, described in the AIM as follows:
OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:
a. The radio contact required of the pilot.
b. The speed to be maintained.
c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.
d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.
e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.
f. The direction of turns.
g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).
h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.
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It is normally used when a formation wishes to arrive together and split up for individual landings in the pattern. Essentially, the formation arrives at the "initial" point about 3 miles from the runway on the extended centerline flying upwind. The tower specifies which way they turn. As they reach the break point (usually over the approach end numbers), the aircraft "peel off," one at a time turning 180 degrees into the downwind, with 2-3 second intervals between planes. They end up in trail on downwind with about 500-1000 foot spacing, and then turn base in sequence to maintain that spacing to individual touchdowns.

The maneuver was invented by the military (which pretty much invented formation flying), and is rarely used by civilians other than when flying formation. If you want to make an upwind entry as a single aircraft, it makes more sense just to ask for that. Why anyone would want to ask for an overhead approach in a single C-150 is beyond me, but you never can tell -- maybe practicing to be a flight lead? :dunno:
 
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OK, fess up.
Who among us has never wanted to fly some really cool military maneuvers?
Anyone who dreams of flying and does it have more than a little Pappy Boyington or Don Gentile DNA in us.
I'm dying for a chance to do a victory roll down the middle of the runway.

:drool:

Glenn
 
^^^ Guess we know who the request came from now!
 
N801BH said:
Only RV's are allowed to do a break........:yes::lol:
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I love when you're at some sleepy field on a Saturday morning, guys firing up for their one hour per week of flight time pancake run, and then on Unicom....

Three fire breathers two out for the break!

Confusion ensues as most of the pilots wonder what a "break" is and what a "fire breather" is.

Suddenly, a flight of RV's blast into the pattern, aluminum and invasion stripes a shining. The RV's land while everyone else clears out in every direction. Three middle aged chubby pilots emerge, giant Breitlings accessorizing their nomex flight suits, they fuel quickly while nervously watching the time. Knowing they have an imaginary overhead time to meet they fire up and blast off....

Flight of three departing 17 straight out and moving fast.

For some a shocking experience for others just another sortie in the books.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I love when you're at some sleepy field on a Saturday morning, guys firing up for their one hour per week of flight time pancake run, and then on Unicom....

Three fire breathers two out for the break!

Confusion ensues as most of the pilots wonder what a "break" is and what a "fire breather" is.

Suddenly, a flight of RV's blast into the pattern, aluminum and invasion stripes a shining. The RV's land while everyone else clears out in every direction. Three middle aged chubby pilots emerge, giant Breitlings accessorizing their nomex flight suits, they fuel quickly while nervously watching the time. Knowing they have an imaginary overhead time to meet they fire up and blast off....

Flight of three departing 17 straight out and moving fast.

For some a shocking experience for others just another sortie in the books.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::lol::lol::lol::thumbsup:

I have seen that movie too...:yes:
 
OK, fess up.
Who among us has never wanted to fly some really cool military maneuvers?
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*raises hand* Guilty. I have never had much interest in formation flying and I only see aerobatics as a means of training to handle an inadvertent upset.

I love when you're at some sleepy field on a Saturday morning, guys firing up for their one hour per week of flight time pancake run, and then on Unicom....

Three fire breathers two out for the break!

Confusion ensues as most of the pilots wonder what a "break" is and what a "fire breather" is.

Suddenly, a flight of RV's blast into the pattern, aluminum and invasion stripes a shining. The RV's land while everyone else clears out in every direction. Three middle aged chubby pilots emerge, giant Breitlings accessorizing their nomex flight suits, they fuel quickly while nervously watching the time. Knowing they have an imaginary overhead time to meet they fire up and blast off....

Flight of three departing 17 straight out and moving fast.

For some a shocking experience for others just another sortie in the books.
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha. That's funny stuff. I always get a chuckle out of the "ready for D-Day" RVs.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only if you turn it into one. The OP asked an honest question about something he heard on the air, and got a straight answer in post #2. The rest is up to you.
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Now Ron you know no thread is finished just because the question gets answered. :D
 
Ron Levy said:
Only if you turn it into one. The OP asked an honest question about something he heard on the air, and got a straight answer in post #2. The rest is up to you.
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Thanks Ron, we'll take it from here.
 
Shepherd said:
OK, fess up.
Who among us has never wanted to fly some really cool military maneuvers?
Anyone who dreams of flying and does it have more than a little Pappy Boyington or Don Gentile DNA in us.
I'm dying for a chance to do a victory roll down the middle of the runway.

:drool:

Glenn[/QUOTE}

I'll cop to some "Don Gentile" DNA...my dad flew his wing on occasion:yes:.
Kendall Carlson 336FS 4TH Fighter Group.
I have also flown an overhead or two...does that make me a bad person?

Chris
Click to expand...
 
Shepherd said:
OK, fess up.
Who among us has never wanted to fly some really cool military maneuvers?
Click to expand...
Here's one. Couldn't care less. The only thing I want to attack from the air is pumpkin beetles. As for formation flying, that's just a means to an end, to be able to camp with the b2osh group.
 
I fly almost exclusively overhead break patterns. Its what I was taught in training. I also learned the standard 45*, downwind, etc but prefer the overhead. (Glider)

Formation and Acro are very fun.
 
alland said:
Please accept my apologies sir....I'm new here, so in future I'll drop you message and ask your permission before starting any more threads...:rolleyes:
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Standard protocol is to clear the topic with Geico first if it has anything to do with breaks..... Then Henning will tell us how to do it correctly..:wink2::D;)
 
Don't even THINK about doing an overhead pattern unless you say "initial". If you don't know what that means, you have no business doing an overhead. And if you're ever in the pattern and hear somebody say that, make like a tree and get outta there. :D
 
Shepherd said:
OK, fess up.
Who among us has never wanted to fly some really cool military maneuvers?
Anyone who dreams of flying and does it have more than a little Pappy Boyington or Don Gentile DNA in us.
I'm dying for a chance to do a victory roll down the middle of the runway.

:drool:

Glenn
Click to expand...

Hand raised, I fly to go visit my mother and other similar tasks, no theatrics desired or needed. When others are out doing their "cool" maneuvers, I look at em sort of like I do the 17 year old peeling out in their mom's minivan.
 
bartmc said:
Hand raised, I fly to go visit my mother and other similar tasks, no theatrics desired or needed. When others are out doing their "cool" maneuvers, I look at em sort of like I do the 17 year old peeling out in their mom's minivan.
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How dare someone have fun in life. Just because you're the minivan driver doesn't mean someone having fun impacts or threatens your safe and boring world. ;)
 
RoscoeT said:
How dare someone have fun in life. Just because you're the minivan driver doesn't mean someone having fun impacts or threatens your safe and boring world. ;)
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I have a pretty hot '68 corvette, when I want to have fun, I take it to the track, not to the public streets where student drivers learning and grandma's are going to get their groceries.
 
bartmc said:
I have a pretty hot '68 corvette, when I want to have fun, I take it to the track, not to the public streets where student drivers learning and grandma's are going to get their groceries.
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I'm relieved to hear that...seriously. But if you check the AIM, there you'll find the overhead pattern. Not a great analogy you presented.
 
RoscoeT said:
I'm relieved to hear that...seriously. But if you check the AIM, there you'll find the overhead pattern. Not a great analogy you presented.
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There's a time and a place for them, check the AIM. Calling out initial on the CTAF probably isn't the time or the place. Why don't you quote the AIM reference for us here?
 
bartmc said:
Why don't you quote the AIM reference for us here?
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Why? If you don't believe it's there, then you can look it up. BTW, I do overheads from time-to-time, but I don't say "initial". Nobody in 152's and Warriors doing laps around the pattern knows what that means. I don't need to sound "cool" on the radio. I just say "overhead upwind entry runway XX for 360 to land". I feel like everybody can figure out what that means. And I use my eyeballs, so whatever you feel about this being a "cool" only maneuver, I'm not a factor for anyone else. If anything, I'm minimizing my (time) exposure in the pattern. That, in and of itself, is worthwhile. Not sure why you castigate this procedure just because you don't do it.
 
RoscoeT said:
Why? If you don't believe it's there, then you can look it up. BTW, I do overheads from time-to-time, but I don't say "initial". Nobody in 152's and Warriors doing laps around the pattern knows what that means. I don't need to sound "cool" on the radio. I just say "overhead upwind entry runway XX for 360 to land". I feel like everybody can figure out what that means. And I use my eyeballs, so whatever you feel about this being a "cool" only maneuver, I'm not a factor for anyone else. If anything, I'm minimizing my (time) exposure in the pattern. That, in and of itself, is worthwhile. Not sure why you castigate this procedure just because you don't do it.
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I know what it says, you're using it as a defence of the flying you describe above. You can post it for the collective and have people decide for themselves if it's applicable instead of blindly saying "It's in the AIM". What does it say about the procedure in the AIM?

HINT: I have no issue with what the C-150 pilot did in the OP. Goofy? yeah but who cares, that's between him and the controller. You "feeling like" doesn't really cut the mustard, that fresh solo endorsement student likely won't have a damn clue what you're talking about unless his instructor has warned him about the Walter Mitty pilots in the area.
 
bartmc said:
You "feeling like" doesn't really cut the mustard, that fresh solo endorsement student likely won't have a damn clue what you're talking about unless his instructor has warned him about the Walter Mitty pilots in the area.
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Solo endorsement students don't have a clue about a lot of things. I will not hit them, so what's the difference? And for all their cluelessness, they do still understand plain-spoken English. If spoken over the radio, I think they will understand. I make an effort to do that. This plus eyeballs out the window = a damn high degree of safety. So don't put me in the 'Walter Mitty' category. Leave that to the guys who say "initial".
 
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RoscoeT said:
Solo endorsement students don't have a clue about a lot of things. I will not hit them, so what's the difference? And for all their cluelessness, they do still understand plain-spoken English. If spoken over the radio, I think they will understand. I make an effort to do that. So don't put me in the 'Walter Mitty' category. Leave that to the guys who say "initial".
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What does the AIM have to say about it?
 
bartmc said:
What does the AIM have to say about it?
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I hope this puts the cherry on top of your evening: :)

5-4-27. Overhead Approach Maneuver

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-30.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved. Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver. Cancellation of the IFR flight plan must be accomplished after crossing the landing threshold on the initial portion of the maneuver or after landing. Controllers may authorize an overhead maneuver and issue the following to arriving aircraft:
 
RoscoeT said:
I hope this puts the cherry on top of your evening: :)

5-4-27. Overhead Approach Maneuver

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-30.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved. Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver. Cancellation of the IFR flight plan must be accomplished after crossing the landing threshold on the initial portion of the maneuver or after landing. Controllers may authorize an overhead maneuver and issue the following to arriving aircraft:
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And this applies to your weekly hamburger run at the uncontrolled field how?
 
Dare I say it?...
To each their own...

As long as someone is flying something I can easily predict I don't care what it is.

The people that tick me off are the ones that enter the pattern on base or final when its a fairly full pattern (uncontrolled). Or people that slow down the pattern because they feel like flying their downwind leg 2 miles from the airport (exaggeration but you get the point). An overhead break is something where I know where the person will be at any given time so I have no issue with it. To each their own.
 
bartmc said:
And this applies to your weekly hamburger run at the uncontrolled field how?
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Getting the hell out of the way of all all the student spam drivers in the pattern. If you thinks it's unsafe you should lobby the FAA for removal of this reference.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Dare I say it?...
To each their own...

As long as someone is flying something I can easily predict I don't care what it is.

The people that tick me off are the ones that enter the pattern on base or final when its a fairly full pattern (uncontrolled). Or people that slow down the pattern because they feel like flying their downwind leg 2 miles from the airport (exaggeration but you get the point). An overhead break is something where I know where the person will be at any given time so I have no issue with it. To each their own.
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"To each his own" leads to nobody knowing what's going on. Enter the pattern in one of the FAA recommended methods when you're at uncontrolled fields. I have my personal opinion about traffic pattern entry, I keep it to myself and fly the pattern like ALMOST everyone else does and expects me to. You want to fly an OB, fine, negotiate it with the controller. My wife is a solo endorsed student pilot, pilots flying an OB that will add to her already high stress but justifying by saying "i'm not going to hit her" doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy.
 
RoscoeT said:
Getting the hell out of the way of all all the student spam drivers in the pattern. If you thinks it's unsafe you should lobby the FAA for removal of this reference.
Click to expand...

So you're on an IFR flight plan and conducting the OB at an airport that has developed the procedure because of an operational need and are cleared by ATC to do so?
 
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I do a couple overheads a year at my *controlled* field, pull throttle to idle over the numbers, and use it as an energy management exercise to land at the touchdown bars at stall.
Not because it's a military maneuver, but because it's good practice to complete a relatively complex maneuver to landing without power.
 
RoscoeT said:
Getting the hell out of the way of all all the student spam drivers in the pattern. If you thinks it's unsafe you should lobby the FAA for removal of this reference.
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oooh. I think we hit a nerve here. Two "all" "all" and you're "hot".

Now show me where understanding this maneuver appears in the PVT PTS or in the DPE examiner guide. IT does not.

So you say that "student spam drivers" are responsible for the AIM. I say you need to share nicely, and do them when there is nobody else around, or at your private strip. I say the marginal guys don't deserve to die, either.

As for your ability to protect the other guy, the Dagger flight 6 incident showed that that wasn't happenin, for the Cozy operator who died. And of cousres I expect you to say," the RV operators had no responsibility for him". To this day the "dagger flight 6" operators say just that.

The tragedy of the commons is that there is always some hotter head that ruins it for everyone else.

This from a guy who did tactical approaches in 132,000 pound ships. The AIM is complete, but there really is no reason to do them in GA, other than for exhibition. If you think the marginally increased "efficiency" is that important, then you really do have suspect judgement.

I think a flight suit and epaulets might be very becoming to you.
 
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As an FFI-certified flight lead, I do agree with those who say it's not a good idea to announce an "overhead maneuver/pattern/entry" at a nontowered airport -- too many people are like the OP and don't know what it means. When I'm leading a 4-ship into the break at a nontowered airport and there's other traffic out there, I'll announce it as "flight of four, upwind entry, turning to the left/right for downwind." If anyone else is entering the downwind or turning from the crosswind, I do everything I can to make sure they understand how many of us there are so they can identify and follow the last plane in my formation. Then I'll keep an eye out for anyone who does anything that would interfere with that, and if they do, I'll take the formation through and go back around to initial and try it again -- no playing chicken with traffic on the 45 or the closed pattern.

Nevertheless, it's nice when the other traffic understands what we're doing so we can make an expeditious entry, pattern, and landing.
 
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