Learning basic Aircraft Systems

Dan Thomas said:
We've done that in the past, and it works very well.
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See, there is a key word in that sentence. Past. Things of yesterday aren't nearly as good as things of today. Why don't we all still drive Model T Fords? Why don't airliners still use big radials? Progress, things have moved on to a better level, and to ignore that progress is crazy.
 
dmccormack said:
Yes, since radio navigation is a PTS Task.
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Maybe not a fail, but I'd suspect you would at least get a letter of discontinuance and have to come back with an airplane capable of demonstrating the required tasks.
 
dmccormack said:
Is there a difference?


:rolleyes2:
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As Greg mentioned, a letter of discontinuance is not a failure - it is the same thing you would get if on the day of the ride, the weather was IFR or there was a maintenance issue with the airplane.
 
dpk1nba said:
Not that I can see. It still is a big fat F
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Having experience both, yes there is a very significant difference. Many (most?) DPE's will charge another fee for testing after the unsat, they can't charge for a test after the discontinuance.
 
Clark1961 said:
Having experience both, yes there is a very significant difference. Many (most?) DPE's will charge another fee for testing after the unsat, they can't charge for a test after the discontinuance.
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It may not happen this way but as far as I'm concerned, If you show up for your check ride with an airplane not equiped for the certificate you are testing for, that to me is a failure. But like I said, The DPE may not neccessarily see it that way.
 
steingar said:
Personally, I don't think they should have to do so. The idea is to be able to fly by pilotage. A VOR isn't part of that. Not that these things aren't helpful and can't get one out of a jam. On the other hand, if one uses pilotage correctly one won't get into a jam.

The private certificate is to fly VFR and use charts to navigate. The instrument to use instruments to navigate. VOR, ADF, NDB, and GPS are all instruments. Seems simple to me.
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I think I see the issue -- you think the FAA has added things to the PP requirements that shouldn't be there. Perhaps we should consider having a certificate with no instrument or electronic nav requirements, with appropriate restrictions associated.

Oh, yeah -- we already do!

See Subpart J of Part 61, and you'll find that which you seek.
 
Henning said:
The Instrument Rating is not about navigating by radios, the instrument rating is about controlling the aircraft by reference to the instruments alone with no visual reference to the ground.
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That's only part of it. It's also about operating within the IFR system, and having greater understanding of the weather you'll encounter when not limited to VMC.
 
dpk1nba said:
It may not happen this way but as far as I'm concerned, If you show up for your check ride with an airplane not equiped for the certificate you are testing for, that to me is a failure. But like I said, The DPE may not neccessarily see it that way.
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I'd say it is a failure on the part of the CFI for letting you take such an airplane to a practical.
 
steingar said:
So if a student showed up for a checkride in an airplane lacking a navigational system (like mine) would that be an automatic fail?
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Not a failure -- the test just wouldn't start if the examiner knew in advance, and would be discontinued if the examiner discovered it after starting. The test would not be completed until the applicant showed up with a plane with some sort of electronic nav system.

And the applicant's instructor would probably get a phone call from the FSDO to find out if s/he really did send the applicant for the test with an aircraft that could not peform all the PTS-required tasks, and if so, to stop in and chat further about that.
 
Clark1961 said:
Having experience both, yes there is a very significant difference. Many (most?) DPE's will charge another fee for testing after the unsat, they can't charge for a test after the discontinuance.
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While most don't, that's up to the individual examiner, not a rule in FAA Order 8900.2.
 
dpk1nba said:
It may not happen this way but as far as I'm concerned, If you show up for your check ride with an airplane not equiped for the certificate you are testing for, that to me is a failure. But like I said, The DPE may not neccessarily see it that way.
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What the DPE may think isn't the issue. Showing up with an aircraft that can't perform the tasks is not listed in the PTS as "unsatisfactory performance," so the DPE cannot issue a Notice of Disapproval on that basis.

But s/he can sure make you pay for wasting his/her time.
 
Total FAA BS in the opinion of your friendly neighborhood Steingar. What is so magical about a VOR? Why not made it an NDB? Or why not require a GPS receiver in any aircraft being used in a checkride? I find no compelling reason to require VOR usage versus any other particular navigational instrument. Flame me if you like, but I do not at all see the logic.

Someone asked. No, my aircraft does not have a VOR. It came with a VFR GPS/com that has been flaky from the get-go, and nada mas. I added a second radio to get me into the controlled airport from which I operate. It has no VOR, nor do I have any plans to add one, since they'll probably scrap the whole system the day after I do.
 
steingar said:
Total FAA BS in the opinion of your friendly neighborhood Steingar. What is so magical about a VOR? Why not made it an NDB? Or why not require a GPS receiver in any aircraft being used in a checkride? I find no compelling reason to require VOR usage versus any other particular navigational instrument. Flame me if you like, but I do not at all see the logic.
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It doesn't have to be a VOR:

an airborne electronic navigation system.
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That means you could satisfy this requirement with VOR, NDB, LORAN, GPS, whatever your plane has. Even a handheld would work.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It doesn't have to be a VOR...

That means you could satisfy this requirement with VOR, NDB, LORAN, GPS, whatever your plane has. Even a handheld would work.
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Then I take it all back. That does make a modicum of sense. Who'da thunk such a thing from the FAA.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That means you could satisfy this requirement with VOR, NDB, LORAN, GPS, whatever your plane has.
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Correct, except for the LORAN -- kinda hard to get a trackable signal on one of those these days.
Even a handheld would work.
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Maybe. There is some confusion within Flight Standards about this with regard to airplanes (although I believe 8900.1 says it's legal specifically for helos). Check with your examiner before you show up with a handheld nav device (GPS or VOR) to fill this square. If the examiner says "no," and the FSDO agrees with him/her, and you don't want to find another plane or install a VOR in the one you've got, be ready to spend the time and effort to elevate it via the FSDO all the way to AFS-600 in OKC (this is testing procedure, not a regulatory issue) and get them to tell the examiner it's OK before you complete the ride.
 
steingar said:
Learn to read. I already acknowledged that my views differ from those of the FAA, indeed I did so in the text you quoted. Funny how all of a sudden the FAA is considered a font of wisdom.

So if a student showed up for a checkride in an airplane lacking a navigational system (like mine) would that be an automatic fail?
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I believe it would be a discontinuance since the aircraft is not equipped to allow for performing the tasks in the PTS.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's only part of it. It's also about operating within the IFR system, and having greater understanding of the weather you'll encounter when not limited to VMC.
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True, I was just refering to the "instrument" usage part of it. We are required to use "instruments" in NORDO Day VFR flying as well since oil pressure gauge and Tach are "instruments" as well. It just didn't make sense to say that the IR was about using instruments and instruments play no part in VFR PP work.
 
Ron Levy said:
While most don't.
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Pretending to authority on a topic again? Most implies more than half and I'm quite sure you don't know the fee policy of more than half the DPE's in the world.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
See, there is a key word in that sentence. Past. Things of yesterday aren't nearly as good as things of today. Why don't we all still drive Model T Fords? Why don't airliners still use big radials? Progress, things have moved on to a better level, and to ignore that progress is crazy.
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I wasn't saying that this basic VFR trainer was the only airplane we use. We have trikes and a multi and turbochargers and G1000 and GPS in all the rest of the fleet and 406 ELTs, too.

If we had to drive Model T's we'd learn to drive instead of relying on ABS to keep us out of trouble, and more of us would stay out of the ditch.

Dan
 
Clark1961 said:
Pretending to authority on a topic again? Most implies more than half and I'm quite sure you don't know the fee policy of more than half the DPE's in the world.
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Not in the world, but my sample size includes dozens of examiners from New England to the Great Lakes to the Ozarks to the Southeast to the Mid-Atlantic, so I'm pretty confident about my statement.
 
Clark1961 said:
Pretending to authority on a topic again? Most implies more than half and I'm quite sure you don't know the fee policy of more than half the DPE's in the world.
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Your comment seems odd coming from someone who just posted this:

Clark1961 said:
Many (most?) DPE's will charge another fee for testing after the unsat, they can't charge for a test after the discontinuance.
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Not only did you use similar wording (Many DPEs) the last half of your statement appears to be completely false. Did your morning toast fall to the floor butter side down today?:D
 
gismo said:
Your comment seems odd coming from someone who just posted this:
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By now you must realize that I find great sport in baiting Ron. He's such an easy target with his desire to be an authority in all matters. What's even more amazing is the number of times he misses the fact that none of it really matters much.

gismo said:
Not only did you use similar wording (Many DPEs) the last half of your statement appears to be completely false. Did your morning toast fall to the floor butter side down today?:D
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I disagree entirely on your analysis of the last half of my statement. A DPE cannot charge for the test which follows the discontinuance.

Maybe you just need a bit more caffiene this morning?
 
Ron Levy said:
Not in the world, but my sample size includes dozens of examiners from New England to the Great Lakes to the Ozarks to the Southeast to the Mid-Atlantic, so I'm pretty confident about my statement.
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Just a thought, but I wonder if Ron's sample includes FAA Examiners who don't charge for the first ride :D

I have no vast pool to compare to, but I every ride I have done (about 5 so far with 4 different examiners) in New England, AZ and CA, it was understood that a retest meant paying another fee, although some DPE's offered reduced retesting rates.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just a thought, bu t I wonder if Ron's sample includes FAA Examiners who don't charge for the first ride :D
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Haven't met one of them yet, not in over 40 years of flying.

I have no vast pool to compare to, but I every ride I have done (about 5 so far with 4 different examiners) in New England, AZ and CA, it was understood that a retest meant paying another fee, although some DPE's offered reduced retesting rates.
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For retests after failure, yes, almost invariably, but continuations with the same examiner are usually different if the discontinuation is no fault of the applicant's (e.g., unforecast bad weather discovered on walking outside after the oral). That helps encourage a safety mindset.
 
Ron Levy said:
For retests after failure, yes, almost invariably, but continuations with the same examiner are usually different if the discontinuation is no fault of the applicant's (e.g., unforecast bad weather discovered on walking outside after the oral). That helps encourage a safety mindset.
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But, Ron, you just said up in post #56 that 'most' DPE's don't charge for retesting after an initial test is unsat.

What is it....are we in agreement or completely opposed? - you have me confused.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But, Ron, you just said up in post #56 that 'most' DPE's don't charge for retesting after an initial test is unsat.
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I thought we were talking about continuations, not failures. Pardon my failure be more specific in my response. You said DPE's were prohibited from charging for continuations, and I said that while most don't, it's not a rule. And I stand by that statement.
 
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