Learning basic Aircraft Systems

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
I ordinarily don’t get to fiddle with the various A/C systems much and would like to be able to utilize the equipment in the 172/U (with VFR GPS) I fly. I’m sure that given some ground time alone I could figure it out, but that’s not as much an option. I’d like the opportunity to flip switches and figure things out.

For example, on more than one occasion, CFI troubleshooting has solved a problem that turned out to be as simple as the audio panel being in the wrong configuration. Or this past weekend, we had to flip switches to get the panel lights on during a night flight. Now and forever more, I will need to be able to solve those same problems on my own while aviating, navigating and communicating; I start my solo cross-country phase soon.

FWIW, I tried RTFM for the GPS units and although I learned more about what they CAN do, the basic functions that my CFI has shown me has been more useful at this stage in my learning. But I can see some value in the things the CFI didn’t teach.

Which brings me to my question: I think that it would be extremely helpful if I could flip on the electrical and “play” with the A/C systems on the ground, but once I do that, the Hobbs is running. Anyone have advice on learning this stuff without using valuable AMUs?
 
I thought the Hobbs was activated by oil pressure?
 
GeorgeC said:
I thought the Hobbs was activated by oil pressure?
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Depends on how it is wired. Some are through a pressure switch. Some are through the master switch. Some are on a squat switch. Some are on some sort of air vane.

Having said all that, in most SE Cessna's it is a pressure switch. I suppose some could be on a master switch.

To Jaybird, ask the FBO if you can sit in the plane with the master switch on, to learn the systems. I bet they probably would allow that. Keep in mind, there is a lot of stuff that could be draining the battery with the master on, so it would be a GREAT idea to have some sort of ground power hooked up while you do that.
 
And turn the blasted GPS off! If you don't learn to navigate without it, you'll get lost in a pinch if the damn thing ever breaks.
 
steingar said:
And turn the blasted GPS off! If you don't learn to navigate without it, you'll get lost in a pinch if the damn thing ever breaks.
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Did that (my decision) during last X-C dual. Then it started giving me info that if it wasn't there, I would have been fine following my DR. GPS screwed me up (LOL).
 
The specific switches should all be documented in the Approved Flight Manual, which you must have onboard for flight. The manual is either kept in the airplane or is given to PIC when the airplane is dispatched. Go to your FBO, find the manual, and read it. At any rate, bring up the subject with the FBO personnel. Finding descriptions of the Intercom panels on the Internet is hopeless, don't waste your time on it.
 
Manuals only help so much. Actually the requirement is for the pilot to be able to operate all of the equipment on board the aircraft for the checkride.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Manuals only help so much. Actually the requirement is for the pilot to be able to operate all of the equipment on board the aircraft for the checkride.
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Yeah, but on a VFR GPS, for a checkride, I seriously doubt the examiner is going to go into much depth on its use. Maybe a direct to and then, chances are it will "mysteriously" fail and you won't use it the rest of the flight. That isn't something I would stress too much about.

What model GPS? What model 172, for that matter?
 
Learn how to do it without the GPS, then learn how to use the GPS that's installed, then take the practical test.

That said, if learning the GPS is an issue, some of them have PC-based simulators your instructor can use to teach its operation. The good PC-based training programs usually cost a few bucks, but if you have a sim and a good instructor, you can learn a lot without eating the battery on the airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, if learning the GPS is an issue, some of them have PC-based simulators your instructor can use to teach its operation. The good PC-based training programs usually cost a few bucks, but if you have a sim and a good instructor, you can learn a lot without eating the battery on the airplane.
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Garmin actually has a free 430 simulator that you can download and play with all of the buttons to your hearts content - even load up approaches and follow along. Very useful tool.

Personally, if you don't have it, I would recommend getting MS Flightsim. One of the advantages of MSFS is that just about every brand and model of avionics has been recreated by MS and various addon developers and most are fairly realistic simulations. You can't log the time spent using the sim, but it really can increase your familiarity with various systems that you might not get elsewhere.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Garmin actually has a free 430 simulator that you can download and play with all of the buttons to your hearts content - even load up approaches and follow along. Very useful tool.
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...when used as part of a training program with a good instructor. OTOH, based on the results with folks who've come to me for IR training in a plane with a 430/530, when all you do is "play with all of the buttons to your hearts content," it takes several hours of work with the simulator to even get close to what is needed in the way of proficiency for the IR practical test. That said, I think the most efficient method is to shell out the bucks for this computer-based training program:
http://www.sunflightavionics.com/garmin-computerbased-trainer-p-145.html
Those folks I've trained who used it before the IR training started really did know how to use the unit, and that saved at least half a day of training (and half a day of IR training costs more than the price of the program).
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Depends on how it is wired. Some are through a pressure switch. Some are through the master switch. Some are on a squat switch. Some are on some sort of air vane.

Having said all that, in most SE Cessna's it is a pressure switch. I suppose some could be on a master switch.

To Jaybird, ask the FBO if you can sit in the plane with the master switch on, to learn the systems. I bet they probably would allow that. Keep in mind, there is a lot of stuff that could be draining the battery with the master on, so it would be a GREAT idea to have some sort of ground power hooked up while you do that.
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I second Greg's idea about just sitting in the plane. If the hobbs is operated when you turn the master on, just talk to the FBO. See if you can still do it for free sometime when the plane isn't booked. If you book it to do this, then you should pay the rate IMHO since someone else can't use the plane.
I did it on ground power before with no issues from the FBO, if someone showed up and wanted the plane, I got out and let them have it then.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Garmin actually has a free 430 simulator that you can download and play with all of the buttons to your hearts content - even load up approaches and follow along. Very useful tool.

Personally, if you don't have it, I would recommend getting MS Flightsim. One of the advantages of MSFS is that just about every brand and model of avionics has been recreated by MS and various addon developers and most are fairly realistic simulations. You can't log the time spent using the sim, but it really can increase your familiarity with various systems that you might not get elsewhere.
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I agree with this. Both MS Flight Sim and the 430 Simulator. I'll respectfully disagree with Ron on the 430 comment. I've had a couple of 'why did it do that?' moments in the air that I was able to properly sort out at home with the manual and no need to put my eyes anywhere else.
 
steingar said:
You shouldn't be using a GPS at all for your private.
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There's some kind of Bendix King GPS in the plane I fly...CDI only, no moving map. I think it's great, I put it to the VOR station I'm navigating to, makes a great cross checker. Gives me groundspeed and estimated times. Moving map, schlooving schlap.
 
steingar said:
You shouldn't be using a GPS at all for your private.
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Wow, really, you want to go to that extreme? Why not say that you shouldn't use a tricycle gear for private training? Or you shouldn't use anything that doesn't have a round engine for private training? I have learned to never speak in absolutes, as often there are exceptions to rules or traditions, no matter what it may be.

If somebody shows up to a private checkride in a plane with GPS, and can't use it, I would fully expect an examiner to fail them for not knowing how to use the systems of the aircraft.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
If somebody shows up to a private checkride in a plane with GPS, and can't use it, I would fully expect an examiner to fail them for not knowing how to use the systems of the aircraft.
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Not to mention, there are some GOOD things that you can get from the GPS as well. If nothing else, instant verifications of what your E6B is telling you, or even a more accurate groundspeed for doing calculations on it in the first place.

Yes, the GPS needs to come late in training, but if it's in the plane, you've gotta learn it.
 
My CFI says I can use any tools I want during PPL check ride - GPS, iPad, iPhone. If DE asks to do something old fashion way then I have to put my toys aside and use chart and E6B.
 
Granted, none of this stuff existed when I got my Private ticket, but...

I can still hear my instructor's voice...

"Use all resources available to you. If the aircraft has DME, use it. If the aircraft has an HSI, better know how to use that too. LORAN, get a book and study that too."

(Yeah, LORAN. Shut-up, I know I'm old.)

The opposite was also true. Learn to make resources. "Let me show you how to make a slip/skid indicator out of a piece of tape and some string."
 
I became a 430 whiz using the free 430 sim embedded in a MSFS airplane (you can buy them from a number of vendors).

I would fly approaches, routes, holds, etc in the sim and then practice same in the real airplane. I knew far more than my CFII and have taught anyone I've flown with anything they need to know about the 430.
 
steingar said:
You shouldn't be using a GPS at all for your private.
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I don't agree with that. GPS is now a ubiquitous system and part of the package. I agree that one should not use it at times and be able to navigate by each method, Pilotage, Ded Reckoning, ADF, VOR & GPS independently, but by the end of the training and issuance of the ticket, the candidate should be well versed and competent with all of them including GPS, and that requires using it during training. Equally as important is that the candidate should be well versed in simultaneously using all of them to cross reference each other and recognize failure in each of the systems.
 
Artiom said:
My CFI says I can use any tools I want during PPL check ride - GPS, iPad, iPhone. If DE asks to do something old fashion way then I have to put my toys aside and use chart and E6B.
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Not only that, if you have it, you may be required to demonstrate its use, and properly....
 
Arbiter419 said:
There's some kind of Bendix King GPS in the plane I fly...CDI only, no moving map. I think it's great, I put it to the VOR station I'm navigating to, makes a great cross checker. Gives me groundspeed and estimated times. Moving map, schlooving schlap.
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I put a 430W and G-500 in my 310. I have flown an Ag Cat from Illinois to California, back to Louisiana with no electronic Nav, and have crossed the country with all sorts of equipment in between. Doesn't bother me not to have it, but I sure as hell like having the advanced equipment. It really does make life a lot easier.
 
Henning said:
I don't agree with that. GPS is now a ubiquitous system and part of the package. I agree that one should not use it at times and be able to navigate by each method, Pilotage, Ded Reckoning, ADF, VOR & GPS independently, but by the end of the training and issuance of the ticket, the candidate should be well versed and competent with all of them including GPS, and that requires using it during training. Equally as important is that the candidate should be well versed in simultaneously using all of them to cross reference each other and recognize failure in each of the systems.
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Sounds like you think the instrument PTS should be used for the private. VFR pilots are supposed to have their eyes outside, not staring at a bunch of dials.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like you think the instrument PTS should be used for the private. VFR pilots are supposed to have their eyes outside, not staring at a bunch of dials.
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With that logic students should be banned from using VORs too.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Wow, really, you want to go to that extreme? Why not say that you shouldn't use a tricycle gear for private training?
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We've done that in the past, and it works very well. The flying skills of the new PPL are much better than if he trained in a trike. The GPS is a great tool but if the student doesn't have the discipline to learn mapreading and timing he really isn't much of a pilot, and the temptation to use the GPS on solo crosscountries is pretty big. It shows up on the flight test.

One of our best training airplanes is a taildragger with a wet compass, a com, a transponder, and nothing else.
 
Henning said:
I put a 430W and G-500 in my 310. I have flown an Ag Cat from Illinois to California, back to Louisiana with no electronic Nav, and have crossed the country with all sorts of equipment in between. Doesn't bother me not to have it, but I sure as hell like having the advanced equipment. It really does make life a lot easier.
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Hi Henning, Don't know if you've seen it yet but someone on the red board is looking for boat captain advise.
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=70753
 
steingar said:
Sounds like you think the instrument PTS should be used for the private. VFR pilots are supposed to have their eyes outside, not staring at a bunch of dials.
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Knowing how to use an instrument and staring at it are two different issues.
 
Everskyward said:
With that logic students should be banned from using VORs too.
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Personally, I don't think they should have to do so. The idea is to be able to fly by pilotage. A VOR isn't part of that. Not that these things aren't helpful and can't get one out of a jam. On the other hand, if one uses pilotage correctly one won't get into a jam.

The private certificate is to fly VFR and use charts to navigate. The instrument to use instruments to navigate. VOR, ADF, NDB, and GPS are all instruments. Seems simple to me.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like you think the instrument PTS should be used for the private. VFR pilots are supposed to have their eyes outside, not staring at a bunch of dials.
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Dude, they still have to know how to navigate with all the resources available. It can be pretty dang easy to get disoriented in what may be perfectly legal VFR weather. Yes, flying the plane visually is first and foremost, but there is more to it. This isn't the 30's. We aren't Ernie Gann flying a Lodestar across Brazil.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Dude, they still have to know how to navigate with all the resources available. It can be pretty dang easy to get disoriented in what may be perfectly legal VFR weather. Yes, flying the plane visually is first and foremost, but there is more to it. This isn't the 30's. We aren't Ernie Gann flying a Lodestar across Brazil.
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especially when all of your usual landmarks are covered in a strange white powdery substance. :D
 
steingar said:
Personally, I don't think they should have to do so. The idea is to be able to fly by pilotage. A VOR isn't part of that. Not that these things aren't helpful and can't get one out of a jam. On the other hand, if one uses pilotage correctly one won't get into a jam.

The private certificate is to fly VFR and use charts to navigate. The instrument to use instruments to navigate. VOR, ADF, NDB, and GPS are all instruments. Seems simple to me.
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The FAA doesn't agree with you.

From the Private PTS

B. TASK: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS AND RADAR SERVICES
(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25; Navigation
Equipment Operation Manuals, AIM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
and radar services.
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
system.
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
appropriate.
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
appropriate.
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
services.
8. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet (60 meters) and
headings ±15°.
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I'll also say that any PP candidate should be able to navigate with & without GPS. The plane I took my check ride in did not have a GPS but it did have LORAN (2006, not _that_ long ago). On the diversion task I set the LORAN and the DPE said "Good. Now it's failed." and turned it off. My instructor made darn sure I could navigate using charts, compass and E6B before VORs & NDBs. In fact he insisted that I fly 1 leg of my cross country at 1000' AGL so that even VORs couldn't be used effectively.

I did my solo cross country in a plane with a GNS-430 but it was only the second time I'd flown it and I didn't know how to use the GPS as a GPS so I used the VOR receiver in it instead. I can navigate with and without it, and if I couldn't I'd be a poor excuse for a pilot, IMHO. I _like_ having a GPS, but I don't need it-even to fly instruments (I've about 1/2 of my IR training done.)

John
 
Everskyward said:
The FAA doesn't agree with you.

From the Private PTS
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I am well aware of that, which is why I couched it as my own personnel opinion. Put another way, there are aircraft on this board that have no navigation system whatsoever. Mine qualifies, since the VFR GPS it came with is as likely to work as not. It doesn't matter what you're flying over, you'd better know how to navigate it, and knowing how to use all that navigation gear won't do you a bit of good, because it just isn't there. If the ground is covered in snow, you'd better know how to find your landmarks (really, it isn't all that hard. They plow roads and runways, cities and rivers don't migrate south for the winter).

Many training aircraft have very sophisticated navigational arrays. how much of that does a student really need to run to be competent to navigate an aircraft. The real answer is none of it.

But yes, the FAA disagrees. Then again, the FAA isn't happy until you're not happy, or so the saying goes.
 
steingar said:
I am well aware of that, which is why I couched it as my own personnel opinion. Put another way, there are aircraft on this board that have no navigation system whatsoever. Mine qualifies, since the VFR GPS it came with is as likely to work as not. It doesn't matter what you're flying over, you'd better know how to navigate it, and knowing how to use all that navigation gear won't do you a bit of good, because it just isn't there. If the ground is covered in snow, you'd better know how to find your landmarks (really, it isn't all that hard. They plow roads and runways, cities and rivers don't migrate south for the winter). You've never flown in Montana, have you? Cities and airports are 100+ miles apart & unless its a major hwy, I doubt the road is plowed enough to be visible from the air and rivers freeze and subsequently cover in snow also.

Many training aircraft have very sophisticated navigational arrays. how much of that does a student really need to run to be competent to navigate an aircraft. The real answer is none of it.

But yes, the FAA disagrees. Then again, the FAA isn't happy until you're not happy, or so the saying goes.
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.........
 
steingar said:
Put another way, there are aircraft on this board that have no navigation system whatsoever. Mine qualifies, since the VFR GPS it came with is as likely to work as not.
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Your airplane doesn't have a VOR?

I think that you should be able to fly by just looking out the window but I also think you should be able to use some form of electronic navigation whether it's a VOR or a GPS or something else depending on what is installed in your airplane.

Just reading this thread makes me realize how far technology has come in the past 20 years regarding navigation in airplanes... or even in the last 10 years.
 
steingar said:
Personally, I don't think they should have to do so. The idea is to be able to fly by pilotage. A VOR isn't part of that. Not that these things aren't helpful and can't get one out of a jam. On the other hand, if one uses pilotage correctly one won't get into a jam.

The private certificate is to fly VFR and use charts to navigate. The instrument to use instruments to navigate. VOR, ADF, NDB, and GPS are all instruments. Seems simple to me.
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The FAA does not agree with you. The Instrument Rating is not about navigating by radios, the instrument rating is about controlling the aircraft by reference to the instruments alone with no visual reference to the ground. The PPL is about Controlling the aircraft using outside refrence, and even there the FAA is requiring considerable instrument training.

If a student candidate were to show up for their practical test armed only with the knowledge you see fit, they will fail.
 
Henning said:
The FAA does not agree with you. The Instrument Rating is not about navigating by radios, the instrument rating is about controlling the aircraft by reference to the instruments alone with no visual reference to the ground. The PPL is about Controlling the aircraft using outside refrence, and even there the FAA is requiring considerable instrument training.

If a student candidate were to show up for their practical test armed only with the knowledge you see fit, they will fail.
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Learn to read. I already acknowledged that my views differ from those of the FAA, indeed I did so in the text you quoted. Funny how all of a sudden the FAA is considered a font of wisdom.

So if a student showed up for a checkride in an airplane lacking a navigational system (like mine) would that be an automatic fail?
 
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