Learn to Turn

redtail said:
Yeah but in practical terms, that would be one hell of a way to get a 30 degree heading change to the right, when I can just bank with ailerons, offset adverse yaw with rudder and maintain altitude with the "primary" AOA manipulator.
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Believe me, I'm with you on that.
 
Insane said:
Well... You might want to review what you think you learned from him now that you know the confused nature of the man. His basic axioms seem to be off, in which case the entire edifice is probably suspect.

And... he belittled us in his passive aggressive way.

I just got a warning and will probably be banned soon :dunno: :confused: so if I do I've enjoyed my short time on this forum. Whichever whining ninny felt the need to complain, I hope you also complained about Rich calling me a jerk. Because I didn't and wouldn't. I'm a big boy who can take it as well as dishing it out.
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I continue to review everything I've learned from him, my CFI's over the years and every other pilot with more knowledge and experience than I. NONE of which I've ever considered to be an "idiot".

As a matter of fact, I'd be honored to meet Rich and fly with him someday. I'm sure I'd learn a lot:yes:. YMMV:rolleyes2:
 
I enjoyed the video and appreciate the time and effort that Rich took to share it. I'm just a student, but it makes sense to me.
 
Here's my take on what I've gotten out of all of this.

The turns that Rich is talking about are a component of vertical lift. So whenever lift and weight are out of balance, the result is a turn up or down, or towards the top or bottom of the ship. In straight and level flight the flipper is positioned to push the tail up or down to equalize the lift and weight, resulting in a straight line. Flipper up pushes the tail down creating less down force, allowing lift to overcome weight resulting in a turn upward.

Ailerons bank the ship, and given the same equalization of the flipper to maintain level flight in relation to the horizon of the earth, along with coordinated rudder, the ship will still fly in a straight line. Flipper up pushes the tail down creating less down force, allowing lift to overcome weight resulting in a turn upward, or since the ship is in a bank, the turn is not upward strictly speaking, it's towards the top of the ship and moving it horizontally in relation to the earth.

The ailerons are not turning the ship, they are banking it. The ship doesn't turn left and right, it only turns up and down. Left and right turn feelings are a result of the relation of the angle of the bank in conjunction with lift to the angle of the horizon.

Now, you might say "but if I push on the rudder pedals the ship turns also," and you would be right, in a fashion. But you would also be wrong, and I would say to you that you will probably end your flying career in a smoking pile of debris somewhere between base and final of the last airport you chose to land at.

I learned everything I know about flying from "Stick and Rudder".
 
Might as well go one step further and say during coordinated flight, airplanes NEVER turn. They only climb and descend in the direction of the lift vector.

So there we go, airplanes never turn, and the answer to, "what is the primary control surface?" is "none."
 
Negative angle of attack?..........

During a decent the wing's chord line might be at a negative angle to the horizon momentarily...but the wing still has a positive angle of attack. The wing does not know where the horizon is...it only knows angle of attack and relative wind.

Negative angle of attack would be either zero lift or negative G.

I might of misunderstood what people were trying to say but it almost sounded like it was being said that during a descent you have a negative angle of attack and need left rudder or something...
 
EdFred said:
Yep, a little left rudder needed on descent in certain planes.
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It's funny, the same people calling Rich confused and flat wrong think the need for left rudder during descent is caused by negative AOA and P-factor. :rolleyes:

Left rudder during a descent is needed due to the fact that you are at a low power, high airspeed configuration. Nothing to do with P-factor and everything to do with the fact that there is less propellor slipstream yawing the airplane left at low power. The fin offset that would normally counteract high powered left yaw causes right yaw at high airspeed, low power settings.
 
RoscoeT said:
It's funny, the same people calling Rich confused and flat wrong think the need for left rudder during descent is caused by negative AOA and P-factor. :rolleyes:

Left rudder during a descent is needed due to the fact that you are at a low power, high airspeed configuration. Nothing to do with P-factor and everything to do with the fact that there is less propellor slipstream yawing the airplane left at low power. The fin offset that would normally counteract high powered left yaw causes right yaw at high airspeed, low power settings.
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Did I say anything about p factor? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
 
EdFred said:
Did I say anything about p factor? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
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Check post #152. And there is no negative AOA during a normal decent...unless you're inverted.
 
RoscoeT said:
I think his 172 has inverted systems. :)
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That's BS!:)
...cause I happened to see a MiG-28 Cessna 172 do a 4G negative dive
...I started on his six then I moved in above him
....because I was inverted
:rofl:


....and I used my elevators to do it
:dunno:
 
Dav8or said:
Completely agree. I haven't really learned anything yet, except that some people can get pretty riled up on the internet over nothing. Actually, no I already knew that.
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You call this riled up? Nobody's bleeding at their keyboards that I'm aware of. Yet. Ha.
 
RoscoeT said:
Check post #152. And there is no negative AOA during a normal decent...unless you're inverted.
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Did you see me see anything about P-factor? No. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're confusing me with MAKG. Better ground yourself until you get your eyes checked.
 
EdFred said:
Did you see me see anything about P-factor? No. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're confusing me with MAKG. Better ground yourself until you get your eyes checked.
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MAKG says you get left P-factor at negative AOA (would be right actually). You say, "Yep, a little left rudder needed on descent...". You quoted MAKG's comment about P-factor and then mentioned about left rudder and descents. If you were not linking negative AOA P-factor to your supposed understanding of why left rudder is needed during descents, then you need to be more careful how you quote others and what you agree with.

So then, what DID you mean by your quote and a comment below?

MAKG1 said:
Umm, you can get left P-factor very easily with negative angle of attack. Of course, sustaining that for any length of time at the necessary high power setting might be problematic.
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EdFred said:
Yep, a little left rudder needed on descent in certain planes.
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Honestly, that's a tangent of a tangent of a tangent. I don't think it's terribly relevant to discussions on how to turn. I was pointing out it didn't exclude elevator, and that was the second level of tangent (the first was suggesting steering with P-factor in the first place).

It's getting so far afield as to be ridiculous. This thread is about whether or not the elevator is "primary" in a turn, and what that means. It clearly doesn't mean P-factor.

P-factor happens to be commonly confused with gyroscope effects and engine effects. But so what? The take-away is that common piston airplanes want to turn left on rotation and during steep high power climbs, and right rudder is necessary. It's true that some airplanes require left rudder on descent, or just less right rudder. The root cause of that is not actionable. It might be interesting for learning purposes, but that's gone when people start arguing about who is "wrong."
 
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