Learn to Learn to Fly- not a typo

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
We've all seen this sign at the local airports. The airport I was driving to has a sign permanently affixed as a road sign directing the passerby to the airport. As I thought about this from the non-flyer perspective, I asked myself, 'at what point is it safe to say 'I know how to fly'?' Since we always talk about keeping a learning attitude regardless of number of hours flown, how do you explain to the non-flyer this seemingly strange concept of learning to fly vs knowing how to fly vs always learning?
 
Well, there's:

Learn to fly

And there's

Learn to fly WELL.

One stops, the other never does.

Like any other skill, you can always refine it.
 
There's a big difference between being good and being good enough.

Being good enough to pass a PPL checkride isn't even close to being good, and the bigger problem for many pilots is that the check-ride is their all-time peak performance in terms of preparation, recent training and adherence to tolerances. A year later, most couldn't pass it again if their life depended on it, which unfortunately it does every time they strap in.

In addition, most pilots give only lip service to the "license to learn" credo that is expounded by their teachers and examiners, and blithely venture off to make the stupid decisions (or non-decisions) that result in the horseshlt safety record that now plagues our segment of the industry.
Then they ***** about the requirements for recurrent training, and only grudgingly submit the the FR which currently requires only an hour in the airplane.

If you ask a group of CFI's how much they thought they knew about flying prior to starting their instructor training compared to what they knew when the training was completed, they will express amazement that their knowledge level was so superficial and under-developed. The problem facing the PPL is that he/she is trapped into the unconscious-incompetent mode of "don't know that you don't know" without any defined path to improve that doesn't require additional investment of time and money.
 
wabower said:
There's a big difference between being good and being good enough.

Being good enough to pass a PPL checkride isn't even close to being good, and the bigger problem for many pilots is that the check-ride is their all-time peak performance in terms of preparation, recent training and adherence to tolerances. A year later, most couldn't pass it again if their life depended on it, which unfortunately it does every time they strap in.

In addition, most pilots give only lip service to the "license to learn" credo that is expounded by their teachers and examiners, and blithely venture off to make the stupid decisions (or non-decisions) that result in the horseshlt safety record that now plagues our segment of the industry.
Then they ***** about the requirements for recurrent training, and only grudgingly submit the the FR which currently requires only an hour in the airplane.

If you ask a group of CFI's how much they thought they knew about flying prior to starting their instructor training compared to what they knew when the training was completed, they will express amazement that their knowledge level was so superficial and under-developed. The problem facing the PPL is that he/she is trapped into the unconscious-incompetent mode of "don't know that you don't know" without any defined path to improve that doesn't require additional investment of time and money.
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You bring about some good discussion on other topics that we've recently discussed, but since you went THERE, I'd like to know if you have any quanitifiable data to support your assertions.
 
I agree with it. So so far the sample size is one. Let's ask other CFIs if the process of studying/learning for the CFI increased their knowledge substantially.

But even as a CFI, I know very little about 121/135 ops compared to someone like R&W or Mari or Greg or...


Bottom line for me is that if you care about something and think about it while you're doing it, you'll always be learning. I only race my car a few times a year. But I practice the racing techniques (though not the speeds) when doing my normal driving. I look ahead, I pick the line I want to follow, the braking point and acceleration point, etc. And when I go to the track I'm not as good as guys who race all the time but I'm still better than I was the last time I left it.
 
Well, you can double the sample size with my vote even though I'm no CFI! I think Wayne is right on the money. I'm one of those new Private Pilots he talks about and I fully realize that I've merely scratched the surface of flying knowledge.

Luckily there are people around like Wayne who are generous with their time and knowledge so that rookies like me have a fighting chance. I have had the distinct pleasure and learning that comes from flying with Wayne, so I know first hand what he has to offer and how generously he offers it.

As far as data to back up what Wayne is saying, try a book "The Killing Zone." It's chocked full of such data. I would highly recommend it to ANY budding pilot. In addition to lot's of good, life saving information in it, the accident statistics are plentiful.
 
Go read Tony Kern's books for further evidence that even after 1000's of hours people are still learning/relearning.
 
It is difficult to learn how to be smooth, and efficient.

When I give FRs to my friends I always have to remind myself that these pilots are not pros, and will never be as smooth as pilots who do it full time.

I have to keep my da₥₥ed mouth shut and just worry about if they are going to kill themselves.
 
Or perhaps it is simply the cost, time, and effort, that keeps most new pilots from advancing their skills. I try to run through all the maneuvers at least once a month, but I haven't really flown for several months while my medical winds it's way through the bureaucracy at OKC.

That also brings up another issue. While I am waiting on my medical, it's been several months now, am I not losing the competency that I had? Is the FAA itself the cause of many accidents or incidents by keeping qualified airmen out of the air?

Of course when I am once again meeting all the requirements that are imposed on us, I will go up with my instructor to make sure I am still safe, but will I be as safe as if I had not taken so much time off?

I remain convinced that becoming a pilot has more to do with becoming a bureaucrat than actually learning to operate an aircraft.

Every advancement in an airman's ratings can mount into the many thousands of dollars. Our flying industry and our flying bureaucracies are probably the main cause of pilot incompetency. We have made it too expensive and too complicated for it to ever be an actually safe endeavor.

John
 
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As the old saying goes. The pilot that knows it all is a dead pilot. I have been flying flying close to 20 years. I still keep learning.
 
Jaybird180 said:
You bring about some good discussion on other topics that we've recently discussed, but since you went THERE, I'd like to know if you have any quanitifiable data to support your assertions.
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Personal experience and conversation with numerous other instructors for 35 years is all I've got. Maybe other instructors will provide input.
 
You sound just like my instructor. He told me my 172 checkout would be "easy" because I just passed a checkride and was at my peak performance.

After a flight with Teller where I almost forgot to do something fundamental until he asked me if I was going to do it, I didn't realize how correct my instructor was. I was "losing" my skills.

Solo, or with non pilot passengers, it is easy to relax and not stick to the strict tolerances you were taught as a student.
 
Bet we've all been there.

Yelling "Clear!" out the window and then realizing the keys are in your pocket was a common one for me. ;)

So common in years past, that I created a new habit. Keys go on the glareshield where anyone near the prop can see them and that they're not in the ignition, during the cockpit portion of the pre-flight routine.

Safer? Sure. But the mistake drove me to find a better "system" for me.

Now the furthest away they are if I forget, is the top of the glareshield. Not buried under a seatbelt in my pants pocket. ;)
 
You can learn to play golf, but you never master it. If you become an MD you practice medicine. You may learn to fly, but really you are practicing the skill of aviation.
 
denverpilot said:
Bet we've all been there.

Yelling "Clear!" out the window and then realizing the keys are in your pocket was a common one for me. ;)

So common in years past, that I created a new habit. Keys go on the glareshield where anyone near the prop can see them and that they're not in the ignition, during the cockpit portion of the pre-flight routine.

Safer? Sure. But the mistake drove me to find a better "system" for me.

Now the furthest away they are if I forget, is the top of the glareshield. Not buried under a seatbelt in my pants pocket. ;)
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Or how about repeatedly turning the key with nothing happening because you missed the checklist item that says MASTER ON.
 
Or forgetting to turn the magnetos on an Archer (on the overhead) on and trying and trying to start it, getting the external power hooked up, still not starting, and only THEN backing up to the "before start" part of the checklist and trying again.

Nothing stings like the realization that YES, you are THAT stupid.
 
TMetzinger said:
I agree with it. So so far the sample size is one. Let's ask other CFIs if the process of studying/learning for the CFI increased their knowledge substantially.

.
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Training to be an instructor definitely increases your knowledge substantially. To the point that you realize that you didn't even know enough to realize what you didn't know before. But you really start learning once you start teaching!! Every student can teach you something. Even if it's just a new way to try to kill you. Learned from 20 years as a 2x military instructor and CFI/II.
 
denverpilot said:
Bet we've all been there.

Yelling "Clear!" out the window and then realizing the keys are in your pocket was a common one for me. ;)

So common in years past, that I created a new habit. Keys go on the glareshield where anyone near the prop can see them and that they're not in the ignition, during the cockpit portion of the pre-flight routine.

Safer? Sure. But the mistake drove me to find a better "system" for me.

Now the furthest away they are if I forget, is the top of the glareshield. Not buried under a seatbelt in my pants pocket. ;)
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I like yelling "CONTACT" personally.
 
What's the current record for deplaning/reboarding to get something else you forgot out of the truck or hangar or desk or FBO or fridge or catering office or fax machine or fuel desk or MX desk or whatever?
 
I've never deplaned for that but i did have to shut down and get out and remove he chock at the nose wheel once that someone helpfully put there for me and I didn't notice before I got all settled with the engine running, DUH. I do a walk around now...
 
Jeanie said:
I've never deplaned for that but i did have to shut down and get out and remove he chock at the nose wheel once that someone helpfully put there for me and I didn't notice before I got all settled with the engine running, DUH. I do a walk around now...
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I've had that happen too. Someone else put chocks out... I now do a double walk around. My normal walk around and inspection and then I walk around once more looking for dumb obvious stuff like chocks, tie downs or other "big picture" type stuff.
 
wabower said:
What's the current record for deplaning/reboarding to get something else you forgot out of the truck or hangar or desk or FBO or fridge or catering office or fax machine or fuel desk or MX desk or whatever?
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How about this? Starting the flight portion of my checkride last month in a Cherokee 140, the DPE had to get out twice. First, because I walked out and left my headset inside the flight school. Second, the foggles fell out of my bag as I zipped it up to go out to the plane. We found them inside by the front desk.

Thankfully, he was a good sport about it.
 
The line service guys at Houston Hooks are diligent to a fault regarding chocks. As I prepared to leave, they re-chocked my King Air and drove away between the time I shut the door and moved forward to the seat. Maybe they didn't notice the set of chocks that I had just removed.

ajstoner21 said:
I've had that happen too. Someone else put chocks out... I now do a double walk around. My normal walk around and inspection and then I walk around once more looking for dumb obvious stuff like chocks, tie downs or other "big picture" type stuff.
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Flying, driving, motorcycling... any skill, especially involving a motor vehicle of any sort, is something that you will never stop learning.

I'd agree with Wayne about a number of people having peak performance at their checkride. What I also see is people who learn more details about flying and become better in certain aspects of flying, but then lose practice for other (critical) aspects of flying.

Example: The instrument pilot who's very good on the radio, but cant hand fly an approach for **** because (s)he uses the autopilot all the time.

You will always have stupid little mistakes happen, just like the rest of us. The catch is checking yourself consistently and giving yourself enough margin that you catch the mistake before it becomes a major problem.

As an example, the other day I departed from a field without a functioning AWOS. So I set my altimeter on departure to field elevation (which is 700 MSL). It was about OVC002, with terrain around, so I flew the departure procedure with a good climb rate. Get into the clouds, and realize that I'm passing 2000 MSL awfully quickly. Oh, right, I set the field elevation to 1700 MSL. Reset the altimeter, and was shortly thereafter talking to Center, who gave me the local altimeter. It was a non-issue in this case because I was going to be climbing well above all obstacles anyway, kept an aggressive climb rate, and realized that there was a problem early on. My co-pilot made the same mistake, too, so it wasn't an isolated pilot failure.

That same mistake killed a plane load of people in a 310 up in Canada in the fall of 2010 in a CFIT crash. Fortunately, I wasn't fly that 310. Many others have suffered the fate of CFIT because of an altimeter that was set 1" off. Since it was a flight between non-towered fields with no AWOS up in that area, flying at night, I'd bet that they departed with the same error, the pilot didn't realize that there was an issue with the altimeter setting, and it didn't cause an issue until he went to land. Better believe I learned something.
 
ScottK said:
How about this? Starting the flight portion of my checkride last month in a Cherokee 140, the DPE had to get out twice. First, because I walked out and left my headset inside the flight school. Second, the foggles fell out of my bag as I zipped it up to go out to the plane. We found them inside by the front desk.

Thankfully, he was a good sport about it.
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~~~~~~. That sounds like nerves and I imagine he's seen it before :wink2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Flying, driving, motorcycling... any skill, especially involving a motor vehicle of any sort, is something that you will never stop learning.

I'd agree with Wayne about a number of people having peak performance at their checkride. What I also see is people who learn more details about flying and become better in certain aspects of flying, but then lose practice for other (critical) aspects of flying.

Example: The instrument pilot who's very good on the radio, but cant hand fly an approach for **** because (s)he uses the autopilot all the time.

You will always have stupid little mistakes happen, just like the rest of us. The catch is checking yourself consistently and giving yourself enough margin that you catch the mistake before it becomes a major problem.

As an example, the other day I departed from a field without a functioning AWOS. So I set my altimeter on departure to field elevation (which is 700 MSL). It was about OVC002, with terrain around, so I flew the departure procedure with a good climb rate. Get into the clouds, and realize that I'm passing 2000 MSL awfully quickly. Oh, right, I set the field elevation to 1700 MSL. Reset the altimeter, and was shortly thereafter talking to Center, who gave me the local altimeter. It was a non-issue in this case because I was going to be climbing well above all obstacles anyway, kept an aggressive climb rate, and realized that there was a problem early on. My co-pilot made the same mistake, too, so it wasn't an isolated pilot failure.

That same mistake killed a plane load of people in a 310 up in Canada in the fall of 2010 in a CFIT crash. Fortunately, I wasn't fly that 310. Many others have suffered the fate of CFIT because of an altimeter that was set 1" off. Since it was a flight between non-towered fields with no AWOS up in that area, flying at night, I'd bet that they departed with the same error, the pilot didn't realize that there was an issue with the altimeter setting, and it didn't cause an issue until he went to land. Better believe I learned something.
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What mitigation strategy did you initiate since?
 
Jaybird180 said:
What mitigation strategy did you initiate since?
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What would you propose for a mitigation action?

- There was no AWOS, so it wasn't that I was given an altimeter and put it wrong in the window
- I had set to proper field elevation, and I knew the proper field elevation
- I know what the big needle and little needle mean on an altimeter, so it wasn't that I didn't know
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What would you propose for a mitigation action?

- There was no AWOS, so it wasn't that I was given an altimeter and put it wrong in the window
- I had set to proper field elevation, and I knew the proper field elevation
- I know what the big needle and little needle mean on an altimeter, so it wasn't that I didn't know
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The only thing I see here as a possibility is pilot error. Pilot set the Kollsman incorrectly.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The only thing I see here as a possibility is pilot error. Pilot set the Kollsman incorrectly.
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It'd be hard to argue any other way, which was my point.

So, what would you recommend as corrective action?

Me, it's a reminder to be vigilant.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It'd be hard to argue any other way, which was my point.

So, what would you recommend as corrective action?

Me, it's a reminder to be vigilant.
Click to expand...

In my case, the KLN94 GPS asks for altimeter setting. I could use it as a reminder and a confirmation of altitude when taking off in 0/0 if I should have a simultaneous static system failure on takeoff.

Unless someone else has another or better idea.
 
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