Leaning for high density altitude take off

I think your mixture may be adjusted wrong. Again, you keep talking about 'your' situation, which is fine for you, but please note - you are on a public forum, having said this: "I just don't understand why people don't lean for max RPM at all elevations." Which produced my counterpoint. Leaning for max RPM at all elevations can, and in some cases of high C/R situations absolutely will produce detonation. further detonation can be catastrophic even in small doses.

Yes I admitted that there could be situations in which it isn't appropriate, but I also think that those situations would be quite rare.

Your admonition about this being a "public forum" is silly. Yes, it's the internet. Take it all with a grain of... pick a substance... or not. Anyone who hasn't figured out the concept of caveat emptor probably isn't a certificated pilot to begin with.
 
At altitude it seems to lean the same way at ANY rpm.

The answer is complicated, but the prop gives enough of an rpm drop to let you know when its getting too lean. The reason it works like that is SO YOU CAN LEAN IT.

I dont know if all constant speed props work that way or not. I would think they would. Why? So you can lean them.



Now you've piqued my curiosity. How does your constant speed prop "know" to give you an rpm drop at "ANY rpm" when you're adjusting power by pulling on the mixture knob, but not when you are adjusting power by pulling on the throttle knob?
 
Yes I admitted that there could be situations in which it isn't appropriate, but I also think that those situations would be quite rare.

Your admonition about this being a "public forum" is silly. Yes, it's the internet. Take it all with a grain of... pick a substance... or not. Anyone who hasn't figured out the concept of caveat emptor probably isn't a certificated pilot to begin with.

You were completely right, I was completely wrong, everyone should lean before takeoff all the time, at every elevation and I'm being silly by bringing up a counterpoint about engine operations on a public forum. Just remember, that you read it from the above quoted member first, and I'm simply following his advice.
 
Unless you have a turbocharger, you're not doing a "FULL POWER" anything at high density altitude.

WOT is not Full Power. Once you get at or below max recommended cruise power, you can set the mixture any place you want from ICO to full rich (subject to the performance degredation).
Semantics. "Full power" is not the same as rated horsepower of the engine. You could consider it full available power. I think that most folks with a pilot certificate are smart enough to differentiate.
 
You get an rpm drop when you pull the throttle too. Not much at full throttle, but some. At runup RPM you get way more rpm drop than at full throttle. You get rpm drop if you reduce power by pulling the mixture knob also.

Airplane: 1996 Aviat Husky, Carbed Lycoming 0-360, Hartzel Constant Speed Prop.

This was all with the prop knob all the way in.

Experiment 1 (done in the air flying at 100mph indicated, 6000'):
I ran the following experiment. I set it for 20" and 2650rpm. Then I pulled the throttle back to 18" and the RPM went to from 2650rpm to 2600rpm, then climbed back up to 2625rpm.

Experiment 2 (again done in the air)
I ran the following experiment. I set it for 10" and it gave me 2000rpm (this is runup rpm). Then I pulled the throttle back to 9" and the rpm went from 2000 to 1950. Went back up to 1975rpm

Experiment 3 (normal runup done on the ground)
I set it for 2000rpm which is about 15" (static is a bit different you see). I LEANED for an rpm drop and it went to 1900rpm and 13" mainifold. When I pulled the power back to 13" it did the same thing.

Conclusion: The higher the power settings the LESS rpm drop when you reduce throttle (or an equivalent reduction in power with the mixture knob) the closer to NO loss of rpm you get. But you get SOME rpm reduction regardless of the power setting and more at lower power settings. Static runup is a bit different than in air "runup"

Comment: There is no connection to the prop governor from the mixture knob, so to the extent that pulling the mixture is the same as pulling the throttle back, they have the same effect. The way I understand the constant speed prop is the oil pressure moves the prop and the governor controls the oil pressure so there is a valve. It takes time for that valve to open so there is "lag" in returning it to the same "constant speed rpm". Want more lag? Make the valve open and close slower.

Like I said, its complicated.

Good thing it does give you an rpm drop. Otherwise you couldnt lean. At least not like this. And I suspect they do it this way on purpose, but Im not really sure. Almost all control systems seem to have some lag and "hunting".

One thing. Not ALL constant speed props are the same. So different props might exhibit different behavior. But Ive flown a 182, 172RG, 185 and a Mooney and they all exhibited an rpm drop when I pulled the mixture in runup.

Hope I got all this right.
 
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Its similar to the effect of turning on air conditioning while idling in your car. Note idle speed, turn on air conditioning. You will see a little decrease in rpm, then a return to normal. The air conditioning compresser puts a load on the engine. That load decreases rpm.The idle control returns it to normal. If it doesnt do this, you have a really sophisticated control system!
 
My humble suggestion for preparing to operate from a 9K' DA field ...

Do a little research with your airplane from your home field. Go up to 9,000' density altitude. Pretend you're taking off there, gear down, throttle and prop full forward, cowl flaps open, then clean up and set up a Vx climb, then lean for best power. Make note of fuel flow, EGT readings, and notice how far the mixture knob is pulled out. Also notice your rate of climb.

Then when you take off from 9K' DA for real, pull the mixture out to that same spot, and it'll be close enough for government work. After takeoff when readings stabilize you can fine tune to the fuel flow and EGT you experienced on your test -- and you won't be unpleasantly surprised at the rate of climb.
 
Not an expert, but that is what Deakin says - there is no red box at higher altitudes/low BHP. In most NA pistons, you can put the mixture anywhere above 7--8k and you won't be in the red zone.

There's no "red box" if you're not flying a Lycoming either. Continental doesn't believe in that magic.
 
Semantics. "Full power" is not the same as rated horsepower of the engine. You could consider it full available power. I think that most folks with a pilot certificate are smart enough to differentiate.

Well obviously not considering the drivel in this tread. You're not going to harm the engine by leaning it at 6000+ DA's.
 
Peteolero, you're making constant speed props way too hard.

http://youtu.be/Z9M_KuP-fbI

When you're doing say, a 1700 RPM run-up and you've got the prop control full forward, you've requested an RPM the prop can't get to with available power. So you are pumping oil through the fine pitch tube, because the spring is holding it open, and the fly-weights aren't being thrown out hard enough by centrifugal force to close it.

The spring is holding the fine pitch tube open and that prop is being held solidly at the finest pitch by engine oil pressure. The prop therefore is essentially not acting as a constant speed prop, but it's acting like a fixed pitch fine/climb prop, because it's being held there by force.

That's what's happening at run-up RPM. You've applied enough power to speed it up but you haven't reached the point where the flyweights will match the spring yet, and the fine pitch valve is open and making sure the prop stays at low pitch. So it's essentially fixed pitch, because oil pressure is holding it there.

As you add throttle, the flyweights start to move out but they still haven't been balanced by the spring and you're still pumping oil to hold that prop fixed at low/fine pitch.

So for run up, it's behaving just like a fixed pitch climb prop.

Now later...

When you push the throttle up to full power, at some point in adding power, the centrifugal force on the flyweights equals the spring force and the prop is turning as fast as it'll go because that's where the prop control is set. Full forward. Redline. It was adjusted by the mechanic to limit RPM there.

Any additional power now added will throw the flyweights out harder and overcome the spring, and open the coarse tube and start pushing the blades more coarse/bigger angle, to try maintain the RPM the mechanic set "full forward" on the prop control to be.

Continue to add power, they'll continue to dig harder. Until you run out of throttle. Once the prop is at an angle that holds that RPM, the flyweights will be balancing the spring again and no oil will flow. Static state. Full throttle, redline.

Okay now we are sitting here at full throttle throwing rocks into our tail and overheating the engine for a while and suddenly a big gust of headwind comes along.

(Or we are flying at any setting of the prop control and we dive, adding airspeed over the prop so the engine power plus the wind is more power than is needed to spin the prop at the RPM we selected)...

The prop now accelerates a bit, and the flyweights go out again from being spun harder, and overcome the big spring and let some more oil flow through the coarse tube, the blades dig a little harder and we find an equilibrium again between the flyweights and the spring after the prop returns to the RPM set by the control. Oil stops flowing and the prop holds this new coarser pitch while this big steady state hypothetical gust is blowing. Flyweights balance the spring and no oil flows.

Headwind dies , prop slows a bit, flywheels come back in a bit, spring wins and we open the fine tube a bit. Prop moves toward a finer pitch and speeds up. Flywheels go back to balanced with the spring and oil stops flowing and the RPM is back where we set it.

Obviously in flight this is happening constantly unless it's super calm out. And even pitch changes to the aircraft will change the airspeed over the prop and change how hard it needs to dig or not dig to maintain a particular RPM. And the flyweights and spring will keep finding equilibrium.

Now we go to land. We pull the throttle back and the flyweights aren't being spun outward as hard. The spring wins and the fine tube is opened until we find equilibrium again. The RPM remains constant for a while as we slowly pull back the power and manifold pressure drops.

Eventually we reduce the engine power enough (plus air flowing over the prop from being in flight) that the flyweights stay in and the spring is stronger. We're back to pumping oil constantly to hold the prop at the finest pitch possible. And the RPM starts to fall. We are essentially a fixed pitch climb/fine prop again, unless we dive harder or add engine power.

What is not discussed in the video or above is how the prop control actually sets the desired RPM. There really are two things pushing on the spring. The flyweights and engine oil pressure as set by the prop control. The flyweights by themselves aren't enough. The spring is big and powerful.

I don't know if they'll let anyone in the shop but worth asking to see the guts of on at Rocky Mtn Propeller if you're up at KEIK sometime. They're really simple devices. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting with a spring to move a piston that has two valve openings in it. You'll notice with the engine shut down on the ground your prop is at the finest pitch or close to it. The spring was winning at shutdown.

(Turboprops and some aircraft do this differently and their blades will often be full coarse on the ground when there's no power wing applied. But we're talking about what's on most piston singles like our 182s. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting a big tough spring.)
 
You can lean to RPM drop with Constant Speed props because even though they are "Constant Speed" they exhibit SOME NOTICABLE decrease in RPM when you lean for less power or when you pull the throttle back.
 
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You were completely right, I was completely wrong, everyone should lean before takeoff all the time, at every elevation and I'm being silly by bringing up a counterpoint about engine operations on a public forum. Just remember, that you read it from the above quoted member first, and I'm simply following his advice.

Juvenile much? :rolleyes2:

I agreed with your point that there could be cases where leaning might lead to problems. I am not about to research every possible situation so I agreed to caveat my statement exactly as you suggested - by saying, variously, caveat emptor or YMMV. Scroll up and look. Or don't.

Repeating myself: What was silly was your admonition that this is a "public forum" as if that implies some duty on the part of posters to give perfectly precise advice. If people don't think twice before taking internet advice I doubt they'll survive life long enough to become pilots. But thankfully we have guys like you on here to keep us all safe. :thumbsup:
 
Peteolero, you're making constant speed props way too hard.

http://youtu.be/Z9M_KuP-fbI

When you're doing say, a 1700 RPM run-up and you've got the prop control full forward, you've requested an RPM the prop can't get to with available power. So you are pumping oil through the fine pitch tube, because the spring is holding it open, and the fly-weights aren't being thrown out hard enough by centrifugal force to close it.

The spring is holding the fine pitch tube open and that prop is being held solidly at the finest pitch by engine oil pressure. The prop therefore is essentially not acting as a constant speed prop, but it's acting like a fixed pitch fine/climb prop, because it's being held there by force.

That's what's happening at run-up RPM. You've applied enough power to speed it up but you haven't reached the point where the flyweights will match the spring yet, and the fine pitch valve is open and making sure the prop stays at low pitch. So it's essentially fixed pitch, because oil pressure is holding it there.

As you add throttle, the flyweights start to move out but they still haven't been balanced by the spring and you're still pumping oil to hold that prop fixed at low/fine pitch.

So for run up, it's behaving just like a fixed pitch climb prop.

Now later...

When you push the throttle up to full power, at some point in adding power, the centrifugal force on the flyweights equals the spring force and the prop is turning as fast as it'll go because that's where the prop control is set. Full forward. Redline. It was adjusted by the mechanic to limit RPM there.

Any additional power now added will throw the flyweights out harder and overcome the spring, and open the coarse tube and start pushing the blades more coarse/bigger angle, to try maintain the RPM the mechanic set "full forward" on the prop control to be.

Continue to add power, they'll continue to dig harder. Until you run out of throttle. Once the prop is at an angle that holds that RPM, the flyweights will be balancing the spring again and no oil will flow. Static state. Full throttle, redline.

Okay now we are sitting here at full throttle throwing rocks into our tail and overheating the engine for a while and suddenly a big gust of headwind comes along.

(Or we are flying at any setting of the prop control and we dive, adding airspeed over the prop so the engine power plus the wind is more power than is needed to spin the prop at the RPM we selected)...

The prop now accelerates a bit, and the flyweights go out again from being spun harder, and overcome the big spring and let some more oil flow through the coarse tube, the blades dig a little harder and we find an equilibrium again between the flyweights and the spring after the prop returns to the RPM set by the control. Oil stops flowing and the prop holds this new coarser pitch while this big steady state hypothetical gust is blowing. Flyweights balance the spring and no oil flows.

Headwind dies , prop slows a bit, flywheels come back in a bit, spring wins and we open the fine tube a bit. Prop moves toward a finer pitch and speeds up. Flywheels go back to balanced with the spring and oil stops flowing and the RPM is back where we set it.

Obviously in flight this is happening constantly unless it's super calm out. And even pitch changes to the aircraft will change the airspeed over the prop and change how hard it needs to dig or not dig to maintain a particular RPM. And the flyweights and spring will keep finding equilibrium.

Now we go to land. We pull the throttle back and the flyweights aren't being spun outward as hard. The spring wins and the fine tube is opened until we find equilibrium again. The RPM remains constant for a while as we slowly pull back the power and manifold pressure drops.

Eventually we reduce the engine power enough (plus air flowing over the prop from being in flight) that the flyweights stay in and the spring is stronger. We're back to pumping oil constantly to hold the prop at the finest pitch possible. And the RPM starts to fall. We are essentially a fixed pitch climb/fine prop again, unless we dive harder or add engine power.

What is not discussed in the video or above is how the prop control actually sets the desired RPM. There really are two things pushing on the spring. The flyweights and engine oil pressure as set by the prop control. The flyweights by themselves aren't enough. The spring is big and powerful.

I don't know if they'll let anyone in the shop but worth asking to see the guts of on at Rocky Mtn Propeller if you're up at KEIK sometime. They're really simple devices. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting with a spring to move a piston that has two valve openings in it. You'll notice with the engine shut down on the ground your prop is at the finest pitch or close to it. The spring was winning at shutdown.

(Turboprops and some aircraft do this differently and their blades will often be full coarse on the ground when there's no power wing applied. But we're talking about what's on most piston singles like our 182s. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting a big tough spring.)

And you say I'm making it too hard? :D

Actually I understand all that in general. The point I was making that docmirror took exception to, and which actually applies to fixed and CS props, was that it's worth leaning for max RPM (plus a half turn rich of that) during runup even at sea level. It has helped in every plane I've flown but I will concede, as docmirror pointed out, that there could be cases where it gets someone into a detonation situation once they go to full power. :dunno:
 
And you say I'm making it too hard? :D

Actually I understand all that in general. The point I was making that docmirror took exception to, and which actually applies to fixed and CS props, was that it's worth leaning for max RPM (plus a half turn rich of that) during runup even at sea level. It has helped in every plane I've flown but I will concede, as docmirror pointed out, that there could be cases where it gets someone into a detonation situation once they go to full power. :dunno:


Ok. Yeah the text was long but the video is the simple part. Text was just supporting it.

And yeah, below certain altitudes I'll just use full rich like everyone else does down there.

When in Rome... Use the procedure that they use all the time and no engines are blowing up. Up here, they have to use our procedures or suffer different problems. ;)
 
Ok. Yeah the text was long but the video is the simple part. Text was just supporting it.

And yeah, below certain altitudes I'll just use full rich like everyone else does down there.

When in Rome... Use the procedure that they use all the time and no engines are blowing up. Up here, they have to use our procedures or suffer different problems. ;)

Jus' git a turbo and set everything the same every time...sheesh it's easy.
 
Juvenile much? :rolleyes2:

Man, you just can't take yes for an answer can you? Not only do you want to be right, you also need to rub it in, and then call someone else juvenile.

whatev
 
Not an expert, but that is what Deakin says - there is no red box at higher altitudes/low BHP. In most NA pistons, you can put the mixture anywhere above 7--8k and you won't be in the red zone.
There's a caveat with that recommendation. It was based on the assumption that your RPM is in the cruise power range (e.g. 2300-2400 on most big bore TCMs). With high RPM many of these engines will be well inside the red box at 25°F ROP.
 
Peteolero, you're making constant speed props way too hard.

http://youtu.be/Z9M_KuP-fbI

When you're doing say, a 1700 RPM run-up and you've got the prop control full forward, you've requested an RPM the prop can't get to with available power. So you are pumping oil through the fine pitch tube, because the spring is holding it open, and the fly-weights aren't being thrown out hard enough by centrifugal force to close it.

The spring is holding the fine pitch tube open and that prop is being held solidly at the finest pitch by engine oil pressure. The prop therefore is essentially not acting as a constant speed prop, but it's acting like a fixed pitch fine/climb prop, because it's being held there by force.

That's what's happening at run-up RPM. You've applied enough power to speed it up but you haven't reached the point where the flyweights will match the spring yet, and the fine pitch valve is open and making sure the prop stays at low pitch. So it's essentially fixed pitch, because oil pressure is holding it there.

As you add throttle, the flyweights start to move out but they still haven't been balanced by the spring and you're still pumping oil to hold that prop fixed at low/fine pitch.

So for run up, it's behaving just like a fixed pitch climb prop.

Now later...

When you push the throttle up to full power, at some point in adding power, the centrifugal force on the flyweights equals the spring force and the prop is turning as fast as it'll go because that's where the prop control is set. Full forward. Redline. It was adjusted by the mechanic to limit RPM there.

Any additional power now added will throw the flyweights out harder and overcome the spring, and open the coarse tube and start pushing the blades more coarse/bigger angle, to try maintain the RPM the mechanic set "full forward" on the prop control to be.

Continue to add power, they'll continue to dig harder. Until you run out of throttle. Once the prop is at an angle that holds that RPM, the flyweights will be balancing the spring again and no oil will flow. Static state. Full throttle, redline.

Okay now we are sitting here at full throttle throwing rocks into our tail and overheating the engine for a while and suddenly a big gust of headwind comes along.

(Or we are flying at any setting of the prop control and we dive, adding airspeed over the prop so the engine power plus the wind is more power than is needed to spin the prop at the RPM we selected)...

The prop now accelerates a bit, and the flyweights go out again from being spun harder, and overcome the big spring and let some more oil flow through the coarse tube, the blades dig a little harder and we find an equilibrium again between the flyweights and the spring after the prop returns to the RPM set by the control. Oil stops flowing and the prop holds this new coarser pitch while this big steady state hypothetical gust is blowing. Flyweights balance the spring and no oil flows.

Headwind dies , prop slows a bit, flywheels come back in a bit, spring wins and we open the fine tube a bit. Prop moves toward a finer pitch and speeds up. Flywheels go back to balanced with the spring and oil stops flowing and the RPM is back where we set it.

Obviously in flight this is happening constantly unless it's super calm out. And even pitch changes to the aircraft will change the airspeed over the prop and change how hard it needs to dig or not dig to maintain a particular RPM. And the flyweights and spring will keep finding equilibrium.

Now we go to land. We pull the throttle back and the flyweights aren't being spun outward as hard. The spring wins and the fine tube is opened until we find equilibrium again. The RPM remains constant for a while as we slowly pull back the power and manifold pressure drops.

Eventually we reduce the engine power enough (plus air flowing over the prop from being in flight) that the flyweights stay in and the spring is stronger. We're back to pumping oil constantly to hold the prop at the finest pitch possible. And the RPM starts to fall. We are essentially a fixed pitch climb/fine prop again, unless we dive harder or add engine power.

What is not discussed in the video or above is how the prop control actually sets the desired RPM. There really are two things pushing on the spring. The flyweights and engine oil pressure as set by the prop control. The flyweights by themselves aren't enough. The spring is big and powerful.

I don't know if they'll let anyone in the shop but worth asking to see the guts of on at Rocky Mtn Propeller if you're up at KEIK sometime. They're really simple devices. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting with a spring to move a piston that has two valve openings in it. You'll notice with the engine shut down on the ground your prop is at the finest pitch or close to it. The spring was winning at shutdown.

(Turboprops and some aircraft do this differently and their blades will often be full coarse on the ground when there's no power wing applied. But we're talking about what's on most piston singles like our 182s. Just flyweights and oil pressure fighting a big tough spring.)

If I understand what you wrote, I think you've got it backwards. On most singles (the E series TCM powered Bonanzas with a Hartzel prop is one example) the some combination of springs, gas pressure, and "centrifugal force" holds the blades in fine pitch (high RPM) and high pressure oil from the governor opposes that pushing the blades to coarse pitch. Also on any hydraulic C/S prop for a HO engine there's only one path for oil to the prop so oil flows both ways through that single path.

It's on the twins like mine where the opposite is the norm (pressure from the governor pushes the blades to fine pitch) so that the prop will feather if oil pressure is lost.
 
If I understand what you wrote, I think you've got it backwards. On most singles (the E series TCM powered Bonanzas with a Hartzel prop is one example) the some combination of springs, gas pressure, and "centrifugal force" holds the blades in fine pitch (high RPM) and high pressure oil from the governor opposes that pushing the blades to coarse pitch. Also on any hydraulic C/S prop for a HO engine there's only one path for oil to the prop so oil flows both ways through that single path.

It's on the twins like mine where the opposite is the norm (pressure from the governor pushes the blades to fine pitch) so that the prop will feather if oil pressure is lost.


Spring works against the flyweights.

Flyweights attempt to move valve to allow coarser pitch to slow RPM as the prop goes faster and centrifugal force moves them outward. Prop slows they move inward.

Spring pushes toward fine pitch. Against the flyweights.

Oil pressure pushes against the spring and assists the flyweights toward coarse pitch. (Prop control changes oil pressure pushing on the spring.)

Gas pressure? What gas?

If you lose all oil pressure, where does the prop go? With the spring. Fine pitch.

Did you watch the video? It's easier to see it than describe it in text. Really simple.

(I already stated twins and turboprops are different.)
 
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