Lazy Eight's With Gear Down

Flyparrothead

Flyparrothead

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Flyparrothead
So I took a pre checkride last week with my examiner and he jumped all over my for not lowering the gear when I did a lazy eight. For the entire portion of my commercial checkride, I have been taught to do this maneuver with the gear and flaps up. When I did it with the gear down, (and a power setting a little higher, like around a 23" 24 setting) the airplane felt more controllable. I told my instructor and he said he had never heard of doing lazy eights like this. Just wondering if anyone else had been taught to do lazy eights gear down.
 
Flyparrothead said:
So I took a pre checkride last week with my examiner and he jumped all over my for not lowering the gear when I did a lazy eight. For the entire portion of my commercial checkride, I have been taught to do this maneuver with the gear and flaps up. When I did it with the gear down, (and a power setting a little higher, like around a 23" 24 setting) the airplane felt more controllable. I told my instructor and he said he had never heard of doing lazy eights like this. Just wondering if anyone else had been taught to do lazy eights gear down.
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We tried this -- once (I took the comm in an A36).

The point of a Lazy eight is to fly the airplane on the edge of the envelope -- steep turns at fairly slow flight, rapid, yet smooth changes in heading, predictable speeds and resulting altitudes -- all at Va.

You would probably exceed Vle at Va in an A36...
 
Never heard of it, when I did my com the gear stayed up.
 
Checking my notes, it looks like I did my lazy eights with the gear down, too, in a 182RG. At this point, I don't recall why I made that choice, but I know that for some maneuvers I decided to do them gear down because the power setting needed to accommodate the specified entry airspeed required a throttle setting that was so low that it would trigger the gear warning horn. I don't generally like training with the gear warning horn blaring, I worry about becoming desensitized to it (and recall a youtube video where a pair of pilots are practicing a power-off 180 with the gear warning horn blaring the whole time, all the way down to the "oh ****" on touchdown).
-harry
 
Trapper you took my comment...

Gas - yep it's on
Undercarriage - down and welded
Mixture - set
Prop - still turning

I did my ride in my C152 except for the complex hop part......
 
Only time my gear went down on the commercial ride was for the emergency extension drill , for the approach-to-landing stall, and for actual approaches and landings. All the performance and ground reference manuevers were flown in the clean configuration.
 
This is the first I've heard of the idea of doing lazy eights with the gear down other than in a fixed gear airplane. It would be interesting to ask that examiner where in the AFH or CP-A PTS it says lazy eights are to be done that way (and only that way) in RG airplanes.
 
Teller1900 said:
Dangit, you stole my joke! I did my com SE ride in a fixed gear, too, so it wasn't an issue for me. :dunno:
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I've heard you have to demonstrate part of the checkride in a complex aircraft; is this true?

I ask, because I have over 50 hours of complex and HP time; none of the maneuvers in the commercial requirements in part 61 seem to require "proving" to the examiner what I've already been doing for 50+ hours (operating prop and gear controls). Maybe it's in the PTS, or I'm "remembering" something wrong.

Off to delve into the bowels of the Commercial PTS PDF.
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
I've heard you have to demonstrate part of the checkride in a complex aircraft; is this true?
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That is currently true. The CP-A PTS requires that at least a portion of the test be performed in a complex airplane. See item 4 on page 7 of the PTS. You are permitted to perform most of the tasks in a non-complex airplane, but Area IV and IX must be done in a complex plane.

However, several months ago, the FAA issued a NPRM proposing to replace the complex requirement for CP-A with "advanced instrument training." The FAA has said that if/when this rule goes final, they will delete the complex requirement from both the CP-A and CFI-A PTS's. I'm looking for that to happen this summer.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I've heard you have to demonstrate part of the checkride in a complex aircraft; is this true?

I ask, because I have over 50 hours of complex and HP time; none of the maneuvers in the commercial requirements in part 61 seem to require "proving" to the examiner what I've already been doing for 50+ hours (operating prop and gear controls). Maybe it's in the PTS, or I'm "remembering" something wrong.
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I believe it is, but I did the SE as an add-on. I had gotten my ME Com first in the Seminole, so the SE ride could be done entirely in the Skyhawk.
 
Ron Levy said:
That is currently true. The CP-A PTS requires that at least a portion of the test be performed in a complex airplane. See item 4 on page 7 of the PTS. You are permitted to perform most of the tasks in a non-complex airplane, but Area IV and IX must be done in a complex plane.

However, several months ago, the FAA issued a NPRM proposing to replace the complex requirement for CP-A with "advanced instrument training." The FAA has said that if/when this rule goes final, they will delete the complex requirement from both the CP-A and CFI-A PTS's. I'm looking for that to happen this summer.
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Great, thanks Ron. I'll work on learning the maneuvers and plugging the last hole I have on the 61 Subpart F requirements, and hope that passes, as my FBO got rid of their TR182RG.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is the first I've heard of the idea of doing lazy eights with the gear down other than in a fixed gear airplane. It would be interesting to ask that examiner where in the AFH or CP-A PTS it says lazy eights are to be done that way (and only that way) in RG airplanes.
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I agree, this is the first time I had heard of it. My examiner told me lowering the gear during this maneuver helps with stability of the aircraft. I am taking my commercial checkride tomorrow, so I will let everyone know the outcome.
 
Flyparrothead said:
I agree, this is the first time I had heard of it. My examiner told me lowering the gear during this maneuver helps with stability of the aircraft.
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I'd like to hear his proof of that statement, too.
I am taking my commercial checkride tomorrow, so I will let everyone know the outcome.
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After it's over and you have your new certificate in hand, please ask those two questions -- where it's written that gear must be down, and how gear down helps stability during a Lazy 8.
 
Jeanie said:
Trapper you took my comment...

Gas - yep it's on
Undercarriage - down and welded
Mixture - set
Prop - still turning

I did my ride in my C152 except for the complex hop part......
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I did my complex sign off in an Mooney and used...

RCGUMPF
Ram Air - Off
Carb Heat - On
Gas - Fullest tank
Undercarriage - Down and Locked
Mixture - Rich
Prop - Forward
Flap - Set

Then I did a check out in a 7AC Champ.
Ram Air -None?
Carb Heat - ON
Gas - Still ON
Undercarriage - Still Down and Welded
Mixture - None
Prop - Still Fixed
Flaps - None

Or interprets to the only action item is - Turn on the Carb Heat.

Brian
 
Gear Down is NOT in the Airplane flying Handbook, which is the guiding AC for teaching, flying and for what the DPEs are to expect.

DPE needs a heads up from the FSDO.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd like to hear his proof of that statement, too.
After it's over and you have your new certificate in hand, please ask those two questions -- where it's written that gear must be down, and how gear down helps stability during a Lazy 8.
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My guess is the DPE is tired of whip stalls at the top of the arc in Lazy 8s...:skeptical:
 
If you were demonstrating a maneuver where stability is important, like an ILS, I'd think the improved stability argument might have merit. 8's don't seem to fall in that category.

When stuff like this is published, the mystery about why so many off-the-wall theories are promulgated throughout GA becomes a little easier to understand.

Ron Levy said:
I'd like to hear his proof of that statement, too.
After it's over and you have your new certificate in hand, please ask those two questions -- where it's written that gear must be down, and how gear down helps stability during a Lazy 8.
Click to expand...
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I've never flown a lazy eight... just read about them, seen the King videos about how they're flown (Comm Checkride video), etc. That said, I like this AOPA Instructor Report tip on how to approach them incrementally, adding one element at a time.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4147
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Sounds excessively complicated to me...I teach a "hands off" lazy eight...hands on the yoke for the first quarter of each turn, then let the airplane's natural stability do the rest (you still work the rudder to stay coordinated).
 
dmccormack said:
My guess is the DPE is tired of whip stalls at the top of the arc in Lazy 8s...:skeptical:
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If someone gets anywhere near a whipstall at the top of the arc in a Lazy 8, they've done something seriously wrong already. The pitch rates in a PTS-textbook-standard Lazy 8 just aren't anywhere near great enough to do that -- there's a good reason they call them Lazy 8's. And having the gear down isn't going to help that anyway -- if anything, it will make a stall more likely as it will increase drag and thus increase deceleration during the nose-up portion of the maneuver.
 
Ron Levy said:
If someone gets anywhere near a whipstall at the top of the arc in a Lazy 8, they've done something seriously wrong already. The pitch rates in a PTS-textbook-standard Lazy 8 just aren't anywhere near great enough to do that -- there's a good reason they call them Lazy 8's. And having the gear down isn't going to help that anyway -- if anything, it will make a stall more likely as it will increase drag and thus increase deceleration during the nose-up portion of the maneuver.
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Properly done -- you're right.

I'm guessing some DPEs encounter less than perfect form. :eek:
 
dmccormack said:
Properly done -- you're right.

I'm guessing some DPEs encounter less than perfect form. :eek:
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In that case, the DPE should take control of the plane from that one hamburger before it gets to that critical point (since the maneuver is already way outside PTS tolerances and a violation of 91.9(a) is imminent), and promptly flunk him/her, not try to invent his own bizarre requirement for the performance of the maneuver by all the other folks who really are ready to pass the test.
 
Ron Levy said:
In that case, the DPE should take control of the plane from that one hamburger before it gets to that critical point (since the maneuver is already way outside PTS tolerances and a violation of 91.9(a) is imminent), and promptly flunk him/her, not try to invent his own bizarre requirement for the performance of the maneuver by all the other folks who really are ready to pass the test.
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Good grief, Ron -- I think the "gear down" requirement is downright stupid -- I'm only guessing why any DPE would require it....:skeptical:
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounds excessively complicated to me...I teach a "hands off" lazy eight...hands on the yoke for the first quarter of each turn, then let the airplane's natural stability do the rest (you still work the rudder to stay coordinated).
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Neither 8083 nor 6121-AC has anything about a required vertical profile. So I teach the whole thing witin a 400 foot vertical profile. Things happen Sllllllllllooooooooowwwwwly. So slowly the students can figure it out with narration.

David has the right idea.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounds excessively complicated to me...I teach a "hands off" lazy eight...hands on the yoke for the first quarter of each turn, then let the airplane's natural stability do the rest (you still work the rudder to stay coordinated).
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That is the way I was taught them and still do. The airplane will do what it supposed to do at the top of the arc which is to drop the nose, or the appearance of which is what you want. I just visualize a radio wave for example that has an up, then a down arc for the upper half of it and a down arc and an up arc for the second half of it. Each arc is a quarter of the maneuver.

I have done these in a Warrior, Archer, Arrow and Skyhawk, and it all works the same way.

This is what a lazy eight would look like on two dimensional paper.

David
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd like to hear his proof of that statement, too.
After it's over and you have your new certificate in hand, please ask those two questions -- where it's written that gear must be down, and how gear down helps stability during a Lazy 8.
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After it was over me, the DE told my instructor for that particular aircraft, a cutlass, the gear needs to be down. The three of us then got into a lively debate about it, and I brought up the PTS and the airplane flying handbook. Again, he said the lowering of the gear increases the stability. Whatever, when I start teaching, the gear will be up and the power will be around 19", not gear down and the power set at 22".
 
Flyparrothead said:
After it was over me, the DE told my instructor for that particular aircraft, a cutlass, the gear needs to be down. The three of us then got into a lively debate about it, and I brought up the PTS and the airplane flying handbook. Again, he said the lowering of the gear increases the stability. Whatever, when I start teaching, the gear will be up and the power will be around 19", not gear down and the power set at 22".
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Other than flying slower dropping the Gear in the Cutlass does nothing for stability. My local CFI in my Cutlass and the School where I took my IR in their commercial handbook flying a Cutlass do not specifcy lowering the Gear for Lazy Eights.

I suspect individual preference being preached here.
 
Flyparrothead said:
After it was over me, the DE told my instructor for that particular aircraft, a cutlass, the gear needs to be down. The three of us then got into a lively debate about it, and I brought up the PTS and the airplane flying handbook. Again, he said the lowering of the gear increases the stability.
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You and your instructor should bring this to the attention of this DPE's supervising Inspector at the FSDO, and let the FSDO take care of the problem. DPE's are simply not permitted to make up their own rules for PTS maneuvers, and when one does so, it violates the integrity of the PTS/designee system.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounds excessively complicated to me...I teach a "hands off" lazy eight...hands on the yoke for the first quarter of each turn, then let the airplane's natural stability do the rest (you still work the rudder to stay coordinated).
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I also was taught this way, really keeps it simple..I remember how fast you got screwed if you didn't stay coordinated.
 
dmccormack said:
The point of a Lazy eight is to fly the airplane on the edge of the envelope -- steep turns at fairly slow flight, rapid, yet smooth changes in heading, predictable speeds and resulting altitudes -- all at Va.
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Uhh, really?!? We never exceeded 30 degrees bank and all of the inputs were molasses slow. Hence the term "Lazy" in Lazy 8. And the speed was not to EXCEED Va at the bottom of the maneuver. It was never to MAINTAIN Va throughout the maneuver.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Uhh, really?!? We never exceeded 30 degrees bank and all of the inputs were molasses slow. Hence the term "Lazy" in Lazy 8. And the speed was not to EXCEED Va at the bottom of the maneuver. It was never to MAINTAIN Va throughout the maneuver.
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My mistake ..I meant to type "never to exceed Va..."
 
dmccormack said:
My mistake ..I meant to type "never to exceed Va..."
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Ok, accepted, but other parts of that post weren't quite accurate, IMO. There is nothing in a Lazy 8 that happens particularly fast. Pitch is slow, initial bank change is slow, heading change is slow. In other words, "LAZY". I think Doc Bruce calls them "Lethargic 8's".
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Ok, accepted, but other parts of that post weren't quite accurate, IMO. There is nothing in a Lazy 8 that happens particularly fast. Pitch is slow, initial bank change is slow, heading change is slow. In other words, "LAZY". I think Doc Bruce calls them "Lethargic 8's".
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My CFI examiner called it a "comatose eight". Then he asked to let him demonstrate...he did basically a double wingover USN style.... and busted >200 feet low.

I didn't say a thing, just tapped the altimeter at the end, which said, 3785 feet (Originated at 4000).

The rest of the checkride was about .3 :)
 
bbchien said:
My CFI examiner called it a "comatose eight". Then he asked to let him demonstrate...he did basically a double wingover USN style.... and busted >200 feet low.

I didn't say a thing, just tapped the altimeter at the end, which said, 3785 feet (Originated at 4000).

The rest of the checkride was about .3 :)
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I've coined a new phrase for those exact moments.... wait for it ....

And that happened :lol:.

Works well anytime someone says, I have a plan. You don't have to say anything other than ... And that happened.... after things go awry.

I always felt I had a good instructor for my commercial. He showed me both ways - fast and about as slow as you could go - He told me up front that fast is not the way to do them, but he used it as an aid for showing common errors and their effect on the maneuver's profile. Everything is exaggerated when it goes fast. It isn't like the maneuver is hard anyway, but Bob's words of attempted wisdom are always... Fast is slow, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Just my way of saying, if you need speed it will come from practicing things correctly at a steady pace. If you need to do a lazy 8, why rush a good thing :skeptical:
 
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