LASP - Be very afraid

There's one argument that isn't mentioned much. While it's true that the cost burden would be high, etc., the main problem with this proposal is that it constitutes an unproportional response to the problem. Those proposals are unacceptable based on that alone.

That might not seem like a powerful argument to the TSA, but rulemaking that is sensitive to the magnitude of the problem is generally considered a virtue in other regulatory areas. TSA doesn't get a free pass.
 
I wonder what would be required for airports that are only manned during normal business hours yet (as most do) allow operations at other times?
 
jmaynard said:
It didn't, unfortunately. The ... in the middle is in the link, not just in how it's displayed. You should be able to get back to the email, select the link from there, then copy it out of your browser's address bar.

EDIT: The correct link is http://www.avweb.com/pdf/general_aviation_affected_airports_2009-01.pdf (The ...s show up, but aren't in the actual link this time.).
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Even at 6 pages long, it must be incomplete. Sky Acres (44N) is there, but Westchester County (HPN) is missing.
 
Lance F said:
This morning I attended the TSA public comment meeting in Atlanta on the NPRM for LASP (Large Aircraft Security Program). This is scary stuff.

There were 150 - 200 attendees and 5 TSA manager types on the podium to listen. They would not/could not comment, answer questions or give any kind of interpretations, feed back or any information. The 260 page NPRM was available as a handout. Anyone who wanted to make a comment was allowed 3 minutes (and there was a clock).

The details of the LASP are available on AOPA or NBAA websites, and if you want GA to continue you'd better read them. It is now written to apply to part 91 operations for aircraft above 12,500#, but you all know the story of the camel putting his nose under the tent flap.
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Yeah, there are quite a few ways that TSA is going about getting people vetted and getting their biometrics on an ID card. Funny, I just posted something on Red about this. I'm already vetted and carded by the TSA with a TWIC (Transportation Workers Identification Credential). You will not escape "approval". Eventually, everyone will be "approved" one way or another and be handed a secure ID with biometrics to scan by either working agents or automated portals. That is the point to all this. We as a nation have been very resistant to a National ID card with biometrics. This is how they are going about it, bit by bit. My hope is that when you get vetted and carded through one program, that it', you're now "approved" for all the programs. I'd be good with that. If I have to get a different one for each program, I'll be annoyed.
 
kkoran said:
HPN has airline service so it already has to have a security program.
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I don't think that's how it works. My home drome has airline service, and I'm sure as heck not walking through a metal detector. When I fly late at night, nobody even knows it except for the Crash Fire and Rescue folks that the overnight ATIS says are listening. I suppose if I didn't announce on the radio, all they'd know is that some flivver's engine just went whining into the night.

Then, there's Franklin, PA. Funniest thing I've ever seen, TSA-wise. The FBO and the airline terminal are the same building. When you come from the restaurant and head toward the flight line, if you're an airline pax you have to turn left and go through the Big Important TSA Screening Line. If you're a GA pilot, you take the next left and walk out a door less than ten feet from the door you get to go through at the end of the Big Important TSA Screening Line. But you have to be sure to not cross the Big Important Red Line On The Ground That Keeps The Terrorists Out. :rolleyes:
 
Henning said:
You will not escape "approval". Eventually, everyone will be "approved" one way or another and be handed a secure ID with biometrics to scan by either working agents or automated portals. That is the point to all this. We as a nation have been very resistant to a National ID card with biometrics. This is how they are going about it, bit by bit.
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I believe you're correct. Real ID, TWIC, Registered Traveler, Global Entry, HSPD-12, Military ID, RFID passport, etc. etc. are all moves to force a national ID. With the ability to completely revoke your rights for a single criminal infraction (think "one strike and you're out"... you can't even get a Global Entry or Nexus card from CBP if there is ANY criminal infraction on your record, no matter how long in the past and no matter if expunged).

Won't be long before such an ID is required for any purchase you make.

Recall that Chertoff said that an ID has to be "Real ID compliant" to permit it to be used to enter any government facility. The intent was to force states to adopt the Federal National ID standard

My hope is that when you get vetted and carded through one program, that it', you're now "approved" for all the programs. I'd be good with that. If I have to get a different one for each program, I'll be annoyed.
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Not likely. Too much turf. TSA won't even accept a military ID or an HSPD-12 compliant government employee ID to allow access past a checkpoint. The list is so short that some TSA screeners have been playing a game called "ID Bingo", where they keep score of each type of "permitted" ID that they see.... that's how short the list is.

Even within one agency there is no commonality. For CBP, for example, a Global Entry card can't be used in place of Nexus and neither can be used in place of Sentri - and vice-versa. Even though you can apply for each card separately, and even though you can be approved for a different card based on the first background check, you still have to go through separate processes, pay separate fees, and go through separate interviews.

The agencies are more worried about "turf", so there will essentially never be commonality.

Just look at the security clearance process for the Feds. DOD clearances are different than FBI, are different than NRC, and often involve some reinvestigation if you want to move from one clearance to another.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think that's how it works. My home drome has airline service, and I'm sure as heck not walking through a metal detector. When I fly late at night, nobody even knows it except for the Crash Fire and Rescue folks that the overnight ATIS says are listening. I suppose if I didn't announce on the radio, all they'd know is that some flivver's engine just went whining into the night.

Then, there's Franklin, PA. Funniest thing I've ever seen, TSA-wise. The FBO and the airline terminal are the same building. When you come from the restaurant and head toward the flight line, if you're an airline pax you have to turn left and go through the Big Important TSA Screening Line. If you're a GA pilot, you take the next left and walk out a door less than ten feet from the door you get to go through at the end of the Big Important TSA Screening Line. But you have to be sure to not cross the Big Important Red Line On The Ground That Keeps The Terrorists Out. :rolleyes:
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Hey, it's not too often that I engage in a discussion with another Kent.

Have you actually read the NPRM? Nothing in the LASP would require that people accessing private aircraft at the affected aircraft walk through a magetometer or go through screening similar to what airline passengers go through.
 
kkoran said:
Hey, it's not too often that I engage in a discussion with another Kent.

Have you actually read the NPRM? Nothing in the LASP would require that people accessing private aircraft at the affected aircraft walk through a magetometer or go through screening similar to what airline passengers go through.
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I've read it, and I definitely got the impression that the TSA reserved the right to decide what citizens can carry aboard private carriage. Others (EAA and NBAA and AOPA) have reached the same conclusion, as evidenced by examples in their responses, of concerns that mechanics or business repair crews wouldn't be able to bring their tools on board.
 
Did anyone visit the meeting in Houston the other night? I received an email from AOPA but not until the day it took place, January 28th.
 
TMetzinger said:
I've read it, and I definitely got the impression that the TSA reserved the right to decide what citizens can carry aboard private carriage. Others (EAA and NBAA and AOPA) have reached the same conclusion, as evidenced by examples in their responses, of concerns that mechanics or business repair crews wouldn't be able to bring their tools on board.
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Yes; but, that stupid idea pertains to what the crew can allow passengers to carry on board 12,500 lbs. plus aircraft. It doesn't require airports to screen people.
 
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Sometimes people get confused with two things that the TSA is doing right now. First is this LASP, more or less saying that the TSA gets to decide who rides on your personal 12,500lb or bigger airplane for Part 91 flights (they already had policies in place for Part 135). I believe it also contains language about new measures airports that can handle 12,500lb and up airplanes will have to take (read: fences and more).

The other thing they just did, by decree instead of through proposal (read: it is now a rule, no ifs, ands, or buts), is that all pilots based at an airport with air carrier service now must go get a background check and a security badge. They must now display that security badge whenever entering the airport property to go to their hangar and their plane. This is even if the GA area is completely removed from the air carrier area.

Kenny, I did not go to the meeting (had to work and it was scheduled at about 9:00a, probably to try to keep people from actually coming), but I have some friends who did. It is being discussed over at www.houstonspotters.net (must be a member to see it). The Cliff's notes version is that it was the same as Lance and others have described - the same panel of TSA employees sitting there and listening to people's logical arguments with complete disinterest and no comment back whilst a stenographer records the whole thing.

Here's one account that I found particularly funny:

Originally posted by RickH
Lastly a gentleman set up a video camera. 1st speaker started his say and the young guy moderating tried to have the camera shutoff. He was told that TSA PA said it was OK. Others reminded them that it was a public, open meeting. Some in the crowd reminded them of this fact, someone asked what they did they have to hide ? Finally they decided to allow the taping. This was all in the first minute and a half ! No one said to get a rope but I'm sure a few were thinkin' it ! This is, afterall, Texas !
grin.gif
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Oh, and who are these people listening, you might ask? My friends over at HS.net did some research:

I did a Google Search and found this ! I don't believe it, this guy is tasked with making these kinds of decisions and his only qualification is that he's worked for the POST OFFICE ?
Dominick Caridi
Director, Regulatory & Economic Analysis
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Current Director, Regulatory & Economic Analysis at Transportation Security Administration
Chief Economist & Director Reg Devel & Econ Anal at TSA/DHS
Past Principal Economist at United States Postal Service
Education New School University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dominick Caridi’s Experience
Director, Regulatory & Economic Analysis
Transportation Security Administration
(Government Agency; 10,001 or more employees; Government Administration industry)
May 2008 — Present (9 months)
Chief Economist & Director Reg Devel & Econ Anal
TSA/DHS
(Government Administration industry)
2006 — Present (3 years)
Principal Economist
United States Postal Service
(Government Agency; 10,001 or more employees; Government Administration industry)
September 1970 — May 2006 (35 years 9 months)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dominick Caridi’s Education
New School University
1972 — 1975
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This one has never done anything in aviation !
Vicki ReederAsst General Manager - General Aviation at Transportation Security Administration
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Current Asst General Manager - General Aviation at Transportation Security Administration
Education USNA
Industry Airlines/Aviation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vicki Reeder’s Experience
Asst General Manager - General Aviation
Transportation Security Administration
(Airlines/Aviation industry)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vicki Reeder’s Education
USNA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Information
Vicki Reeder’s Groups:
Federal Executive Institute Alumni Association (FEIAA)
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Couldn't find anything on Shauna Lawrence but I already see a pattern here.... :bh:
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Yeah, I'd say an economist for the post office would be an excellent choice to review such things. An economist over an agency that continually raises rates because they are going broke while paying more than three times the entry-level earnings over the private sector. Oh yeah, he's an excellent choice for the TSA to use.

As for the second one, an education from the Naval Academy is great. But, what did she do in the Navy? Wouldn't that be something one would want to highlight in their CV?
 
t0r0nad0 said:
The other thing they just did, by decree instead of through proposal (read: it is now a rule, no ifs, ands, or buts), is that all pilots based at an airport with air carrier service now must go get a background check and a security badge. They must now display that security badge whenever entering the airport property to go to their hangar and their plane. This is even if the GA area is completely removed from the air carrier area.
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When does this take effect? I haven't even been notified of anything like that and we're at a class C air carrier field.

I did not go to the meeting (had to work and it was scheduled at about 9:00a, probably to try to keep people from actually coming)
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Word is 500 people showed up anyway.
 
The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.-- Ronald Reagan

Best,

Dave
 
TMetzinger said:
I've read it, and I definitely got the impression that the TSA reserved the right to decide what citizens can carry aboard private carriage. Others (EAA and NBAA and AOPA) have reached the same conclusion, as evidenced by examples in their responses, of concerns that mechanics or business repair crews wouldn't be able to bring their tools on board.
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I believe you're correct. IIRC, the rule specifically prohibits any weapons or potential weapons in any area accessible to the passengers. No more golf clubs riding as cargo in the lav....
 
flyingcheesehead said:
When does this take effect? I haven't even been notified of anything like that and we're at a class C air carrier field.

Word is 500 people showed up anyway.
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Interesting. According to this article, it it's effective March 1st. Maybe that's start date for a 90-day implementation period or something.
 
AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is anyone else getting frustrated here????!!!!!!???!!??!


#$#(@*&$(@)*&#$)(!^*$)(!*^#@%$)(!^#%)$(!*^@$%)(!^%

And those are just the polite words I want to use....

Our government, of the people, by the people, for the people, is being subverted by a bunch of people with little education (New School University???) and even less intelligence. HOW ON GOD'S EARTH DO WE STOP THIS ENCROACHMENT INTO THE ENJOYMENT OF EVERYDAY AMERICAN LIFE????????????????????????????????? WHEN WILL IT STOP??????????

Do we really need another revolution? I mean, seriously, what in the F is going on in DC??????
 
kkoran said:
Interesting. According to this article, it it's effective March 1st. Maybe that's start date for a 90-day implementation period or something.
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I think that's the end of the comment period. Keep in mind that writing your senators with all your constitutional and emotional and financial objections is fine.

Writing the TSA and commenting needs to be done too, and to be effective, comments must address the assumptions make in the NPRM. Attack their cost estimates. Attack the fact that there's no detail that lets you figure out what your cost for security enhancements or "third party audit" will be. Attack the fact that even their underestimated costs will cripple/kill small business operators.

Don't bother saying "we think you're the Gestapo for the 21st Century". They KNOW that, and they LIKE it. There response will be "So... what's your point?". Save that stuff for the politicians who do respond to it.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think that's the end of the comment period. Keep in mind that writing your senators with all your constitutional and emotional and financial objections is fine.

Writing the TSA and commenting needs to be done too, and to be effective, comments must address the assumptions make in the NPRM. Attack their cost estimates. Attack the fact that there's no detail that lets you figure out what your cost for security enhancements or "third party audit" will be. Attack the fact that even their underestimated costs will cripple/kill small business operators.

Don't bother saying "we think you're the Gestapo for the 21st Century". They KNOW that, and they LIKE it. There response will be "So... what's your point?". Save that stuff for the politicians who do respond to it.
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There was no comment period since this wasn't a rule-making action. I think what they did was to tell all of the airline airports that they had to modify their existing security plans so the Security Identification Display Area (SIDA) encompasses all of the Airport Operations Area (AOA).
 
Interesting how TSA's handling of the LASP is exactly the opposite of how the Dept. of Homeland Security views small vessel secuity. Here's an excerpt from DHS's Small Vessel Security Strategy.

Risk mitigation efforts must be designed so as to strike the delicate balance and tradeoffs between personal freedom, national security, and commerce.
​
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT][/FONT]Small vessel risk reduction efforts should not impede the lawful use of the maritime domain or the free flow of legitimate commerce.

[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT][/FONT]Small vessel risk reduction effots will include ongoing engagement with the small vessel community, as well as other key stakeholders in order to ensure that potential solutions reflect their interests and to benefit from the collected wisdom of the small vessel community in crafting solutions.

[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT][/FONT]Successful small vessel risk reduction will require close coordination and cooperation between Federal agencies, state, local, and Tribal governments, as well as private and international partners.
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Of course, maritime security is the province of the Coast Guard, an organization that understands the activity it regulates.
 
kkoran said:
There was no comment period since this wasn't a rule-making action. I think what they did was to tell all of the airline airports that they had to modify their existing security plans so the Security Identification Display Area (SIDA) encompasses all of the Airport Operations Area (AOA).
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Oh, THAT. I thought we were still talking about LASP. I remember that discussion on UCAP a while back. Another thing to write Congress about.

I'm really fed up with Congress. I think I'm gonna start throwthebumsout.org to urge everyone to vote against the incumbent for the next six years, and essentially get a fresh Congress that remembers who they work for.
 
>"The only way around it is to take the battery out of the thing."

huh?
 
Bob Noel said:
>"The only way around it is to take the battery out of the thing."

huh?
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It's a quote from the video, alleging that the FBI has the ability to use the microphone in someone's cell-phone to eavesdrop, even if the unit is powered off.
 
Another interesting aspect of LASP - how will it affect charity flights? Angel Flight and Mercy Medical, and similar. Will the pilot be responsible for the background check or will the coordinating office? How will this impact these programs? True, most of us don't fly 12.5K aircraft, but there are some.

Whether you like your congresscritter or not is irrelevant - Congress holds the purse strings. That's the approach. There are issues of economics and SAFETY!
 
Today I got a letter back from Congressman Frank Wolf. It's attached.

Guess I'll be voting for someone else next election - the guy can't even arrange to have his letters properly proofread.

I'll post any other replies I get. I really want to see what Senator Webb says.
 

Attachments

  • frank_wolf_LASP_reply.pdf
    359 KB · Views: 18
TMetzinger said:
Today I got a letter back from Congressman Frank Wolf. It's attached.

Guess I'll be voting for someone else next election - the guy can't even arrange to have his letters properly proofread.

I'll post any other replies I get. I really want to see what Senator Webb says.
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At least he responded Tim and sent it on to TSA. It'll be interesting to see if they address any of your points.

BTW, you might ask how they are going to screen us GA pilots that have CCW permits when going to our aircraft. There was a case here recently where they tried to seize the knife from a paramedic going to his helo.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
At least he responded Tim and sent it on to TSA. It'll be interesting to see if they address any of your points.

BTW, you might ask how they are going to screen us GA pilots that have CCW permits when going to our aircraft. There was a case here recently where they tried to seize the knife from a paramedic going to his helo.

Best,

Dave
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Or folks carrying openly - which is fine here in Virginia.
 
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