Langewiesche Stick and Rudder for tailwheel training

[alfadog]

Mention of Stick and Rudder in another thread made me think of this:

Recently, I found my old copy of Stick and Rudder (given to me in 1977) and started reading it. I skipped around a bit but was drawn to the chapter on landing. Much of it relates to conventional gear aircraft although Langewiesche also discusses those new-fangled nosewheel jobs which, BTW, he approves of.

Anyway, what I found especially interesting was his discussion of the wheel landing. My tw instructor, whom I greatly benefited from in other areas, was very weak on teaching wheel landings and we did very few of them. So I was left to figure it out on my own, which I tackled with gusto

And I got pretty OK at them but my technique was tentative. Langewiesche recommends a much more assertive wheel landing. He wants you to pick a spot, drive the airplane down on that spot and don't be shy with the forward stick.

So last weekend I went over to X51 with the Luscombe and worked on that with a nice 12G15 direct crosswind on 9/27 turf. Worked out pretty well, too. I put it down on the upwind wheel with a degree of firmness I had not used before and held it down with forward stick, eventually letting the downwind wheel and the tail come down.

But I was using a fair bit of runway with the extra speed of the wheel landing and lack of headwind so braking practice was in order. Down on one wheel, second main wheel down, now work the heels over the brakes without screwing up the rudder control too badly, brake fairly hard while working the stick to keep the ship level (gotta call her a "ship" now - LOL).

Lots of fun

 

[RoscoeT]

Great book. IMO, the timing of the forward stick input is much more important than being firm or aggressive with it. You don't need more than an inch of forward stick in most airplanes to stick a wheel landing. Either you stick it clean or you don't. If you're a little late on the forward stick, aggressive forward stick may only get the pogo stick going harder, depending on the airplane and what kind of landing gear it has. Roll it on super smooth and you don't need any forward stick at all, since the drag of the tires alone is enough to keep the pitch from changing, which would cause you to go flying again. In a strong x-wind, you may want to use more forward stick to get more weight on the wheels to keep the wind from skidding you off the runway until you slow down and kill some lift in the wings. But in general, I feel the most 'artful' way to wheel land is with as little forward stick as possible. I don't think it's very graceful when I see a pilot touch down and then shove the stick way forward while the airplane runs along with the tail super high. But then that's aesthetics (to me), and the only thing that counts is being able to re-use the airplane.

 

[BillTIZ]

It's a lot easier to finesse the braking with toe brakes than heel brakes on a wheel landing in crosswinds.

I know people that will still three point a Pawnee in a stiff gusty crosswind. But I prefer wheel landings in 20 knt crosswinds.

 

[N1347B]

I will be flamed here, but hey, I'm a big girl!

With three Luscombes and over 4000 hours of Luscombe time between us, Henry and I never, ever use the brakes on the landing roll.

The Luscombe airplane is prone to flipping with improper use of braking. In recent years, I know of four that have flipped. If you run out of rudder authority (we have lots of that btw), a burst of power across the tail will help.

If you find yourself too fast on the landing roll, then you approached the landing too fast. Henry used to fly off of a 1400 ft. grass strip. No brakes needed even with the wheel landing. BTW, we both approach the wheel landing and three point at the same speed. We do adjust that speed for crosswinds if needed.

If the possibility of being a member of the Turtle Back Club does not finesse your braking habits, know that Luscombe brake parts are rare and/or extremely expensive.

With the possibility of rusted gear legs or cracked Cleveland wheels or 70 years of age or neglect, I approach each of my landings with as much grace and delicacy as possible and save the aggression for the Cessna pilots.

I also hoard parts.

Fire away,

Deb

 

[alfadog]

I hear ya. I was putting it down at almost 80 and that is prolly too fast by at least 5 even with a xwind.

I was pretty gentle with the brakes but still, I wanted to practice the use of them in that situation; normally, I do not use brakes much and should prolly do without them entirely.

Mainly, I was trying to develop the wheelie technique in the book of picking a spot to put the wheels down rather that my usual method of feeling for the ground in increments while burning runway.

I will be flamed here, but hey, I'm a big girl!

With three Luscombes and over 4000 hours of Luscombe time between us, Henry and I never, ever use the brakes on the landing roll.

The Luscombe airplane is prone to flipping with improper use of braking. In recent years, I know of four that have flipped. If you run out of rudder authority (we have lots of that btw), a burst of power across the tail will help.

If you find yourself too fast on the landing roll, then you approached the landing too fast. Henry used to fly off of a 1400 ft. grass strip. No brakes needed even with the wheel landing. BTW, we both approach the wheel landing and three point at the same speed. We do adjust that speed for crosswinds if needed.

If the possibility of being a member of the Turtle Back Club does not finesse your braking habits, know that Luscombe brake parts are rare and/or extremely expensive.

With the possibility of rusted gear legs or cracked Cleveland wheels or 70 years of age or neglect, I approach each of my landings with as much grace and delicacy as possible and save the aggression for the Cessna pilots.

I also hoard parts.

Fire away,

Deb

 

[DutchessFlier]

save the aggression for the Cessna pilots.

Well, not ALL of us Cessna Pilots ya know!!!!

 

[N1347B]

Mainly, I was trying to develop the wheelie technique in the book of picking a spot to put the wheels down rather that my usual method of feeling for the ground in increments while burning runway.

Practice. Practice. Practice. Henry once won a spot landing contest with his wheel landings. At Sun'n Fun, the controllers love him because he can fly down the runway and on a moment's notice plant it on a spot.

He practices by flying down the runway just above the stall about a foot above the surface with just enough power to keep it flying. Basically, slow flight above the runway. Just before his spot, he pulls the power, looses that last bit of energy then pins it.

I am a three-pointer. I can't do that but it's darned cool to watch him do it.

Deb

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

In general, generalizing about the diverse collection of new and antique flying machines that are known as taildraggers generally doesn't work.

Know the airplane. Some like to three point. Some like to do wheelies. Some have doo-doo brakes and/or like to park on their roof. Others are better behaved. Some have strong rudders and others not.

In my ride, I like to do stop and gos so I stand on the brakes all the time. $25 for a new set of linings from Matco every 10 years is no big deal.

 

[alfadog]

Practice. Practice. Practice. Henry once won a spot landing contest with his wheel landings. At Sun'n Fun, the controllers love him because he can fly down the runway and on a moment's notice plant it on a spot.

He practices by flying down the runway just above the stall about a foot above the surface with just enough power to keep it flying. Basically, slow flight above the runway. Just before his spot, he pulls the power, looses that last bit of energy then pins it.

I am a three-pointer. I can't do that but it's darned cool to watch him do it.

Deb

You've thrown me. What you describe Henry doing would but him in a nose-high three-point attitude, wouldn't it? Not a wheelie.

 

[N1347B]

You've thrown me. What you describe Henry doing would but him in a nose-high three-point attitude, wouldn't it? Not a wheelie.

Envision a cropduster spraying crops. Level. Slow. With enough power on to maintain that attitude. Henry says judging your distance above the runway is the hardest part. Obviously, you don't want to get too slow or you will drop out.

His 8A is light, nimble and beautifully rigged. Mine is not as light or nimble.

And he's had Lucy for 35 years.

Deb

 

[Bill Watson]

Envision a cropduster spraying crops. Level. Slow. With enough power on to maintain that attitude. Henry says judging your distance above the runway is the hardest part. Obviously, you don't want to get too slow or you will drop out.

His 8A is light, nimble and beautifully rigged. Mine is not as light or nimble.

And he's had Lucy for 35 years.

Deb

You are killing me.... I miss my old 180hp Maule!

I once watched (Sky Manor NJ - 80s) a Luscombe pilot touching down on one wheel, lift off and touch down on the other wheel, multiple times. Light and nimble indeed.

Though I've never flown another tail dragger, the Maule struck me as a very loveable truck compared to other draggers. I felt like I had a pretty good handle on it after 1800hrs but it had some idiosyncrasies.

It really preferred to be 3 pointed. Of course with reflex flaps, it could be 3 pointed at slow cruise speeds if needed. For reasons that were never explicitly stated, even the factory avoided teaching wheelies to Maule newbies. On the other hand, after a couple of hundred hours, I taught myself to do wheelies with it which came in handy when I had a spate of tail wheel flats. But even after becoming confident with them, I had to agree that it was always easier to 3 point it, no matter what xwind, no matter what surface. Knowing how to wheel it only came in handy when you completely screwed up a landing and hit mains first.

Despite the STOL rep, it was challenging to really land short. The flaps were big and my model had an extreme setting that some others didn't, but they were aerodynamically deficient... a C150 has a much better set. Coming in steep required getting real slow and getting real slow meant that you didn't have enough elevator to flare. A bit of power was required to get the elevator to work for the round out. It slipped well too but still a C150 could get steeper. Of course if there were no obstacles, it could be dragged in and dropped on a spot.

My most memorable moment in it was a xwind landing in Key West. It was a rare circumstance when I was alone, was fully briefed on the 90 degree gusting xwind, and it was a flight where I was fully prepared before takeoff for a return to my wind friendly takeoff point. On long final into KEYW, I setup the slip and quickly realilzed that I didn't have enough rudder to get it straight. I still didn't have it until I got within a wingspan of the ground where the wind gradient, combined with full left rudder, finally let me get it straight for the touchdown. To get off the runway I had to do a 270 to do a 90deg exit.

The tower gave me kudos for the landing and then mentioned that a Malibu had ground looped earlier that day and punched the gear up thru a wing. Ouch!

I miss driving that 'ol Maule around.

 

[iflyblog.com]

That's an excellent book! Amazing how relevant it is after all these years.
Good on ya for exploring technique with your Luscombe, which is an airplane near-and-dear to my heart as well - taught in them for a couple of years.

 

[RoscoeT]

I hear ya. I was putting it down at almost 80 and that is prolly too fast by at least 5 even with a xwind.

What's the stall speed of the Luscombe you fly...mid 40's?? An 80 mph touchdown seems too fast by at least 25 for a wheel landing in a Luscombe! If you were touching down at 80 what were you approaching at?

 

[CRAZEDpilot]

It is an excellent book - (Hey Brent long time no see, may appear I'm following you around the internet but I'm not!). I find the feel of the wheel landing changes a lot with different weight aircraft. We have a light two seater here, and without the weight to settle in it is twitchy.

It's always hard to get over the 'stick forward' mentality. If you have the option, get an A&P or a friend to help you lift the tail up to level flight attitude and see just how much prop clearance there really is - We run a 3 blade prop so we have a TON of room, even most two blades have sufficient clearance that the visual of seeing that can help your brain get over the stick forward risk.

 

[alfadog]

What's the stall speed of the Luscombe you fly...mid 40's?? An 80 mph touchdown seems too fast by at least 25 for a wheel landing in a Luscombe! If you were touching down at 80 what were you approaching at?

80 all the way down. I admit a tad fast but I was taught to 3-point at 70 and, I believe, 65-70 is what most Luscombe drivers 3-point at.

 

[dell30rb]

80 all the way down. I admit a tad fast but I was taught to 3-point at 70 and, I believe, 65-70 is what most Luscombe drivers 3-point at.

is this in MPH? three pointing at 70 is awful fast

maybe you approach at 70 and three point around 50?

 

[N1347B]

80 all the way down. I admit a tad fast but I was taught to 3-point at 70 and, I believe, 65-70 is what most Luscombe drivers 3-point at.

Aren't you flying an 8A? Henry's ragwing stalls at 39 mph. Final at 70. Short final at 65 mph. The airplane gets mushy at 55. It will trim well for final.

My 8E stalls at 48 mph. I approach at 70-75 mph. My bird gets mushy at 60. After I cross the fence I don't really look at the airspeed. Mine is harder to slow down and will not trim for a hands off final.

I've flown a metal wing 8A that handles somewhere between our two. I have found that the falling leaf is an excellent exercise to get the feel of the Luscombe landing in the three point. After some practice at altitude, you will want to do that falling leaf about 6 inches above the runway.

You seem to be handling the crosswind very well, but on a normal landing speed is not your friend. Tail wheel brackets are heck to replace and they are prone to cracking.

Keep learning and have fun. There are so few Luscombe owners/pilots on general forums that's its refreshing to be able to correspond with one.

Deb

 

[N1347B]

You are killing me.... I miss my old 180hp Maule!

I once watched (Sky Manor NJ - 80s) a Luscombe pilot touching down on one wheel, lift off and touch down on the other wheel, multiple times. Light and nimble indeed.

Though I've never flown another tail dragger, the Maule struck me as a very loveable truck compared to other draggers. I felt like I had a pretty good handle on it after 1800hrs but it had some idiosyncrasies.

It really preferred to be 3 pointed. Of course with reflex flaps, it could be 3 pointed at slow cruise speeds if needed. For reasons that were never explicitly stated, even the factory avoided teaching wheelies to Maule newbies. On the other hand, after a couple of hundred hours, I taught myself to do wheelies with it which came in handy when I had a spate of tail wheel flats. But even after becoming confident with them, I had to agree that it was always easier to 3 point it, no matter what xwind, no matter what surface. Knowing how to wheel it only came in handy when you completely screwed up a landing and hit mains first.

Despite the STOL rep, it was challenging to really land short. The flaps were big and my model had an extreme setting that some others didn't, but they were aerodynamically deficient... a C150 has a much better set. Coming in steep required getting real slow and getting real slow meant that you didn't have enough elevator to flare. A bit of power was required to get the elevator to work for the round out. It slipped well too but still a C150 could get steeper. Of course if there were no obstacles, it could be dragged in and dropped on a spot.

My most memorable moment in it was a xwind landing in Key West. It was a rare circumstance when I was alone, was fully briefed on the 90 degree gusting xwind, and it was a flight where I was fully prepared before takeoff for a return to my wind friendly takeoff point. On long final into KEYW, I setup the slip and quickly realilzed that I didn't have enough rudder to get it straight. I still didn't have it until I got within a wingspan of the ground where the wind gradient, combined with full left rudder, finally let me get it straight for the touchdown. To get off the runway I had to do a 270 to do a 90deg exit.

The tower gave me kudos for the landing and then mentioned that a Malibu had ground looped earlier that day and punched the gear up thru a wing. Ouch!

I miss driving that 'ol Maule around.

Bill,

What great memories! We almost bought a new Maule at one time. Wish we had. I've had the opportunity to fly in one. It was a truck!

.

Deb

 

[alfadog]

is this in MPH? three pointing at 70 is awful fast

maybe you approach at 70 and three point around 50?

My 8E stalls at 48 mph. I approach at 70-75 mph. My bird gets mushy at 60. After I cross the fence I don't really look at the airspeed. Mine is harder to slow down and will not trim for a hands off final.

Yes, mph and metal 8A. Full nose-up trim gives me 70 and, if I intend to three-point, I carry that all the way to the round out. Certainly by the time I round out and flare to three-point, I am slower but I never looked to see what I am touching down at, maybe just under 60? I will try to figure that out next time I fly and see how the wheelies feel at 70 in a crosswind.

 

[stearmann4]

Deb,

I'm kind of with you, being spring loaded to "stabbing" the brakes in most of the old tailwheel planes is asking for trouble, especially if you're wheel landing. I guess the caveat is if you have barely-there brakes on a Cub or Champ. I know in a Steaman if you jam on the brakes you'd better have the tail below the point-of-no-return angle or else you can easily put it on the nose. I teach managing your approach speed for the length and type of landing area so there aren't any surprises on roll-out. I was taught by old crop dusters and using the brakes for anything other than the run-up got a sharp rap against the back of my melon. My boys love it when I perpetuate the technique.

Mike-

 

[Silvaire]

...Coming in steep required getting real slow and getting real slow meant that you didn't have enough elevator to flare....

It's not really the slow speed that causes that, it's because you were trimming for that speed on final and when you do that (with any aircraft that uses a servo tab for pitch trim) you are reducing the elevator surface area because you have cranked the the trim tab all the way down. So when you pull back on the yoke and the elevator goes up that whole section which is the servo tab has no effect, as if it had been removed.

We had an M7-235C which had the spring gear and it did wheel landings pretty good despite the fact that Ray Maule would expressly tell any new owner to never do wheel landings in a Maule. Obviously that was just his opinion but personally I'm not big on wheel landings anyway for any purpose other than to keep the tailwheel off of rough terrain. Watch that guy with his 180 on Flying Wild Alaska when he lands on tundra or rocks - he just slams the mains on and keeps the tailwheel low but not contacting, even if he bounces a bit. Of course he had bushwheels which probably makes that a bit easier to do but as I said, other than that I don't see any advantage to wheelies, certainly not for crosswinds or gusts or anything like that because regardless - the tailwheel's got to come down eventually.

 

[zaitcev]

BTW, we both approach the wheel landing and three point at the same speed. We do adjust that speed for crosswinds if needed.

I have no beef with the rest of it, but this piques my curiosity. What is the point of doing it? My t/w instructor said that wheelies are done in case of crosswind, and that I must arrive at the touchdown with and excessive energy that is used to roll on the upwind wheel. If I do not have that energy, I will have no choice but plop it into a 3-point landing, because I won't have the aileron authority to counter the wind, and an attempt at a kickout is a guaranteed groundloop at my skill level. So for wheelies we either added power or dived to build up speed.

 

[Bill Watson]

I have no beef with the rest of it, but this piques my curiosity. What is the point of doing it? My t/w instructor said that wheelies are done in case of crosswind, and that I must arrive at the touchdown with and excessive energy that is used to roll on the upwind wheel. If I do not have that energy, I will have no choice but plop it into a 3-point landing, because I won't have the aileron authority to counter the wind, and an attempt at a kickout is a guaranteed groundloop at my skill level. So for wheelies we either added power or dived to build up speed.

I think Light and Sporty Guy said it - it all depends on the aircraft. But I've only flown one taildragger so my opinion is less than informed.

Some types prefer wheelies, some 3 pointers. The Maule is not stalled or out of control authority when 3 pointed unless it's brought in very slow. It took me a few hours before I learned the 3 point attitude versus holding it off until it stalled. Holding it off while bleeding speed in the flare meant a tail first belly whop - not a bad way to arrive but not elegant. In a crosswind, you 2 point it with the upwind wheel and the tailwheel while keeping it straight - no problem. In the end, Ray Maule knows what he is saying about 3 pointing the Maule... but that doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft.

I've watched hundreds of Birdog and Pawnee landings at gliderports. In friendly conditions they land the way they come in, that is, every which way. When the wind is up and things are more dicey, they seem to wheel them all on. In the same dicey conditions, I'd be 3 pointing the Maule with the same confidence.

Planes are different and tail draggers demand paying attention to the type I guess. Interestingly tail dragging gliders don't fly like taildraggers at all - they are way easier.

 

[wabower]

I've flown Cessna 180's off-and-on since 1957 and have found that shallowing the descent rate on final (at least for the last half-mile) produces the most predictable and satisfying wheelies without any planting or pinning other than moving the stick forward very slightly after the main starts rolling.

 

[Silvaire]

This is a fairly good example of what I mean by a tail low wheel landing with the only intent as being to keep the tailwheel off the rough terrain although, in this case there is no rough terrain, he's just demonstrating the technique.

Maule short wheel landing

 

[whifferdill]

I have no beef with the rest of it, but this piques my curiosity. What is the point of doing it? My t/w instructor said that wheelies are done in case of crosswind, and that I must arrive at the touchdown with and excessive energy that is used to roll on the upwind wheel. If I do not have that energy, I will have no choice but plop it into a 3-point landing, because I won't have the aileron authority to counter the wind, and an attempt at a kickout is a guaranteed groundloop at my skill level. So for wheelies we either added power or dived to build up speed.

It's a myth that wheelies should be done in x-winds, or that they're better in x-wind. It depends on the airplane, the pilot, the wind strength, and also the pilot's preference. In the Pitts, I really don't do wheel landings period, regardless of wind...which I don't avoid. There are a whole lot of reasons for my 3-point preference in this airplane which are unrelated to x-wind, so I won't go into it. But if I'm going to 3-point in a x-wind, there's no need to carry excess speed on final just because of the x-wind. In this case, a little extra speed is usually there simply because when there's a decent x-wind, there's also usually some mechanical turbulence down low. So I'll adjust for that, but not necessarily pure x-wind. And just so the non-TW pilots are clear, "3-pointing" in a x-wind is a misnomer. You're really touching down on one main and the tailwheel (2-point). But you're in the 3-point attitude, so it's still called "3-point".

The Clipped Cub I fly is a different matter. I've flown it in direct x-winds 18G27KT and found that in this range of wind, that I cannot 3-point it. I can three point it just fine in direct x-wind up to about 15KT, but above that, there is too little weight on the tires during the initial landing roll at high speed in the 3-point attitude with that much wind, even with the aileron fully deflected into the wind. The tires don't have enough grip until the airplane slows a bit, and the airplane will get skidded sideways toward the downwind side of the runway. In this much wind, I will wheel land the Cub so that weight can be kept on the main wheels until the airplane slows to the point where rolling in a 3-point attitude will put enough weight on the tires to maintain grip and keep the airplane from skidding uncontrollably sideways.

Of course, the tail must come down eventually, and the consequence of wheel landing in a x-wind is that you must have the rudder authority to GET the tailwheel down without the wind weathervaning you into the ditch. The Cub's huge rudder helps with that. In other airplanes, brake can help you with this, but not in the Cub...its brakes are very marginal.

And in airplanes with insufficient control authority to control crab/drift at touchdown in the 3-point attitude, the only thing you can do is increase your speed and do a wheelie. I think this is where the "myth" regarding wheel landings and x-winds comes from. But again, in this case, you have the issue of safely lowering the tail. Again, too many variables regarding wind speed, pilot, and airplane to generalize.

So I generally prefer to 3-point in x-winds regardless of what I'm flying. But then I prefer to 3-point period, for various reasons. Some pilots simply like extra speed on landing whether there's wind or not. But don't let anyone generalize that wheel landings are better in x-wind. Too many complexities to make blanket statements like that. You just have to learn each airplane's characteristics and find what you're comfortable and safe doing. Some pilots, in some airplanes, will only 3-point when x-wind gets really nasty.

 

[Bill Watson]

This is a fairly good example of what I mean by a tail low wheel landing with the only intent as being to keep the tailwheel off the rough terrain although, in this case there is no rough terrain, he's just demonstrating the technique.

Maule short wheel landing

Pretty cool video, never saw that one before.

I'm thinking that a Maule with tundra tires is a slightly different animal. Even with a bigger tailwheel than normal, it looks like it's sitting a good bit more nose high than it would with normal tires. The attitude required for a 3 pointer with tundras looks like it would produce a belly flop with normal tires. Conversely, the attitude required for a 3 pointer in my MX7 would be a wheelie with tail low but off the ground in that tundra example, no?

Apparently the tundras provide a great deal more braking on grass than what I get. I live on grass and there is no way I could brake like that without sliding, even on dry grass.

But, having said all that, I found out I could wheel it on and keep the tail off until slowed to a walk with elevator, then power and brakes (all hard surface). But I learned it just trying to save flat tailwheels from destruction when far from home.

Man, I wish I had tried some tundra tires on mine before I gave it up. Looks like great fun!

Whoops, I fell in a Maule hole...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS8i5gQOiRw
An excellent sales pitch on the MX7180b. Everything true and on target except for the reflex flaps increasing cruise speeds. They do not increase cruise speeds but they do provide great descent capability. I swear he was doing a silent prayer before opening the door... the door latch has a long history of sucking.

I had a '96 a-model with fixed pitch. If you are thinking Super Cub or a Scout, the Maule can be a better choice. Used 180hp models can be had pretty cheap.

You are now returned to your regular programming.

 

[whifferdill]

I'm thinking that a Maule with tundra tires is a slightly different animal. Even with a bigger tailwheel than normal, it looks like it's sitting a good bit more nose high than it would with normal tires. The attitude required for a 3 pointer with tundras looks like it would produce a belly flop with normal tires. Conversely, the attitude required for a 3 pointer in my MX7 would be a wheelie with tail low but off the ground in that tundra example, no?

Yep, he's only doing a "wheel" landing in the video because the tires are too big to get to the true 3-point attitude in this airplane. That would be a 3-pointer in anything with normal sized tires. If you watch the winners of the STOL landing contests, they typically touch down 3-point for min. speed and then push over onto the wheels for max. braking. The "Maule" in the video looks like Greg Miller's (of 'Big Rocks & Long Props' videos) highly-modified Maule. Note the huge flaps and tiny ailerons.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Of course, the tail must come down eventually, and the consequence of wheel landing in a x-wind, is that you must have the rudder authority to GET the tailwheel down without the wind weathervaning you into the ditch. The Cub's huge rudder helps with that. In other airplanes, brake can help you with this, but not in the Cub...its brakes are very marginal.

That's where the Cessna 120 I used to fly was real nice. When the old man got it, it had the original (Goodyear?) brakes - one day he ended up off the runway and on the nose with mom in the right seat. His claim was the brakes grabbed - that's possible, but I have to wonder if some of it was that the 120 was just not as stable on roll out as the Navions that he used to own. But, it wasn't long after that a nice set of Cleaveland disks showed up. With those setting the tail down was never an issue - you could steer with the brakes all day long and even hold the tail up if you wanted (at least until you came to a stop). That airplane really liked to wheel land.

On a related note:

 

[N1347B]

It's a myth that wheelies should be done in x-winds, or that they're better in x-wind. It depends on the airplane, the pilot, the wind strength, and also the pilot's preference. In the Pitts, I really don't do wheel landings period, regardless of wind...which I don't avoid. There are a whole lot of reasons for my 3-point preference in this airplane which are unrelated to x-wind, so I won't go into it. But if I'm going to 3-point in a x-wind, there's no need to carry excess speed on final just because of the x-wind. In this case, a little extra speed is usually there simply because when there's a decent x-wind, there's also usually some mechanical turbulence down low. So I'll adjust for that, but not necessarily pure x-wind. And just so the non-TW pilots are clear, "3-pointing" in a x-wind is a misnomer. You're really touching down on one main and the tailwheel (2-point). But you're in the 3-point attitude, so it's still called "3-point".

The Clipped Cub I fly is a different matter. I've flown it in direct x-winds 18G27KT and found that in this range of wind, that I cannot 3-point it. I can three point it just fine in direct x-wind up to about 15KT, but above that, there is too little weight on the tires during the initial landing roll at high speed in the 3-point attitude with that much wind, even with the aileron fully deflected into the wind. The tires don't have enough grip until the airplane slows a bit, and the airplane will get skidded sideways toward the downwind side of the runway. In this much wind, I will wheel land the Cub so that weight can be kept on the main wheels until the airplane slows to the point where rolling in a 3-point attitude will put enough weight on the tires to maintain grip and keep the airplane from skidding uncontrollably sideways.

Of course, the tail must come down eventually, and the consequence of wheel landing in a x-wind is that you must have the rudder authority to GET the tailwheel down without the wind weathervaning you into the ditch. The Cub's huge rudder helps with that. In other airplanes, brake can help you with this, but not in the Cub...its brakes are very marginal.

And in airplanes with insufficient control authority to control crab/drift at touchdown in the 3-point attitude, the only thing you can do is increase your speed and do a wheelie. I think this is where the "myth" regarding wheel landings and x-winds comes from. But again, in this case, you have the issue of safely lowering the tail. Again, too many variables regarding wind speed, pilot, and airplane to generalize.

So I generally prefer to 3-point in x-winds regardless of what I'm flying. But then I prefer to 3-point period, for various reasons. Some pilots simply like extra speed on landing whether there's wind or not. But don't let anyone generalize that wheel landings are better in x-wind. Too many complexities to make blanket statements like that. You just have to learn each airplane's characteristics and find what you're comfortable and safe doing. Some pilots, in some airplanes, will only 3-point when x-wind gets really nasty.

Excellent explanation!

We are an equal opportunity family. Henry wheel lands because his airplane likes it. I three point because my plane just does that better. We don't change for crosswinds. We're both gonna land on that windward wheel anyway.

To add confusion to this topic, I TAKE OFF three point as well. Henry's tail pops up as soon as he adds power so it's a wheelie take off for him.

:-D

Deb

 

[alfadog]

Excellent explanation!

We are an equal opportunity family. Henry wheel lands because his airplane likes it. I three point because my plane just does that better. We don't change for crosswinds. We're both gonna land on that windward wheel anyway.

To add confusion to this topic, I TAKE OFF three point as well. Henry's tail pops up as soon as he adds power so it's a wheelie take off for him.

:-D

Deb

Do you ever swap airplanes? What happens then? Is it the airplane or the pilot that has the clear preference?

 

[N1347B]

Do you ever swap airplanes? What happens then? Is it the airplane or the pilot that has the clear preference?

I learned to fly tail wheel in his. He taught me wheel landings. I had 70 hours in the 8a when I bought my 8E.

I wheel landed it for a few hours and hated the way it felt. Started three pointing it after some pointers from a friend and it became love at first landing.

Over the years, we have flown each others airplanes when during down times. We typically use the landing preferred by the airplane.

However, mine is down right now and I am flying his. I've been three-pointing.

Deb

 

[CRAZEDpilot]

....for anyone watching the video above, FYI Steve Henry is a reseller for Highlander. That Highlander has a beefed up Rotax 912 ULS turning 140 horsepower, extended gear, and 31" bushwheels last I talked to Steve.
He's a great guy, excellent pilot. We sell his Extreme Bush Pilot DVD, it's full of these escapades you see in that video above. Great fun..... but people who aren't experienced in this shouldn't do this kinda thing.

If you want to see the DVD preview it's at http://www.crazedpilot.com/extreme-bush-pilot-dvd-deadstick-takeoff/

Regarding 3point or wheel, I have a plane similar to Steve's in the video, and I land tail low then roll up on the mains. It's a comfortable, high visiblity position. Adjusting your flaps during that position will either quickly lower it for hard braking, or if you leave a fair bit of flaps in you can retain that tail high position for a long time without much power and controlled braking. Buyer-be-ware, I'm not telling you to go out and do this

 

[Silvaire]

Man, I wish I had tried some tundra tires on mine before I gave it up. Looks like great fun!

We had 8.50's on ours which were decent but you still wouldn't want to do a lot of touch and go practice on pavement since they were about $250 a piece. For the Bushwheels you're looking at around five grand $$$ so if you're not actually utilizing them they are a very expensive ornament. Landing on asphalt really tears them up too so doing that would be considered a sin.

That video was Greg's highly modified Experimental M7 which is built specifically for doing exhibition stuff like that. I took it at the Cub Crafters open house up at Yakima a few years ago. Yes, there was a bit of wind that day, here's a video of the Carbon Cub prototype doing a short field take off.

Carbon Cub

 

[N1347B]

This is a fairly good example of what I mean by a tail low wheel landing with the only intent as being to keep the tailwheel off the rough terrain although, in this case there is no rough terrain, he's just demonstrating the technique.

Maule short wheel landing

Envy the flaps. Envy the tires.

Deb

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've flown Cessna 180's off-and-on since 1957 and have found that shallowing the descent rate on final (at least for the last half-mile) produces the most predictable and satisfying wheelies without any planting or pinning other than moving the stick forward very slightly after the main starts rolling.

Haven't flown a 180 yet, but that is very similar to my experience in the 170. I've found that rather than pushing the stick forward, it works better to have the trim set to need a slight back pressure to start the flare and as soon as the mains touch, you simply relax the back pressure. Works quite well.