Landing Woes...

[sbonek]

today was perfect day for flying in Central Indiana, temps were in the high 50's F, winds pretty light (7-8 from the South), Sky clear. So I scheduled a plane to work on some landings before a long X-C I'm planning for Sunday.

After working with my Instructor (before he left for the airlines) on getting checked out in the 182T with G1000 and he pointed out that I seemed to be looking too close and needed to look farther down the runway, I've been working on where I'm looking during the flare to try and smooth out my landings. The good news is, I'm getting better at that, and not being as ground shy.

Here is my other issue, I'm curious if anybody has seen this. When I get down in ground effect, even with light winds right down the runway I'm landing on, the nose will invariably swing to the left. Today, I anticipated that happening, and was prepared to stomp on the right-rudder, and the nose swung all the way around to the right of the centerline.

Is it just as simple as needing to hold more right-rudder when getting into Ground Effect? Sometimes this has happened when I'm getting ready to flare, which results in some interesting landings on the left side of the runway. Maybe I need to hold more right-rudder when pulling the throttle back to idle, and not be as aggressive on the rudder if I notice it's still wandering to the left?

 

[spiderweb]

Don't stomp. Use the sight picture and make it look right. It really is as simple as that. For the C182, you will need a bit more right leg--no stomping.

Also, don't forget PERIPHERAL vision!!!! You won't get anything harder than a firm landing if you use it, and you will often get a soft landing in anything less than a lot of turb.

 

[CJones]

Just out of curiosity, do you drive a stick-shift (car)?

This may seem random, but my PPL instructor told a story about one of his students that, just as the wheels would touch the ground, he would veer off to the left of the runway. They kept working on landings and working on landings and he couldn't figure out why this guy - on every landing - would veer to the left just as the wheels touched the ground. He said at one point it was so bad that he (instructor) had to take the plane and do a go-around b/c they were headed for a taxiway sign.

Finally, completely out of the blue, it donned on him (instructor): The student drives a stick shift. When he starts to slow down in his car (landing in an airplane) he uses the clutch (left rudder) to slow down. His 'natural' feel for slowing his vehicle (car or plane) included his left leg extending on whatever peddle it was placed on. Once he figured this out, he simply had to harp on "Don't clutch it" during landings. I'm sure that led to some interesting driving stories, but at least he was able to land the airplane safely.

Just another option to consider.

 

[sbonek]

Just out of curiosity, do you drive a stick-shift (car)?

This may seem random..

..snip..

that's interesting... I don't anymore, but I did several years ago. It is possible that I sub-consciously am applying left rudder. It's definately something I will think about when I fly on Sunday.

 

[BobS]

I think everybody goes through this while learning to land. The problem with landing is that you only get a few seconds of practice each time. One way to get more practice is to do a low pass. Get down to about 10 feet off the runway, right as you'd normally flare, and hold the plane about 10 kts over the landing speed so you don't have to worry about stalling and fly the whole length of the runway. As you fly over the white center strap force that nose to do what you want it to. Keep it pointing straight with the rudders, and use the aerilons to keep the plane tracking over the center. This will give you a lot more practice time with the rudders. It will finally all start to come together.

 

[sbonek]

I think everybody goes through this while learning to land. The problem with landing is that you only get a few seconds of practice each time. One way to get more practice is to do a low pass. Get down to about 10 feet off the runway, right as you'd normally flare, and hold the plane about 10 kts over the landing speed so you don't have to worry about stalling and fly the whole length of the runway. As you fly over the white center strap force that nose to do what you want it to. Keep it pointing straight with the rudders, and use the aerilons to keep the plane tracking over the center. This will give you a lot more practice time with the rudders. It will finally all start to come together.

Good suggestion Bob. It seems like every time I go out, I have it in my head that I've got it figured out without having to do the low approach practice method, but it doesn't seem to have happened yet.

 

[jesse]

Honestly most people I've observed have problems because of too much airspeed. They will come in fast, start their flare way high, and bleed off airspeed as they do this really high long flare thing fighting it the whole time.

I fly the airplane down to a few feet before I flare. I have very little airspeed so the flare is quick. I don't let it touch until the yoke/stick hits the stops. Works well in what I've flown so far.

 

[sbonek]

Honestly most people I've observed have problems because of too much airspeed. They will come in fast, start their flare way high, and bleed off airspeed as they do this really high long flare thing fighting it the whole time.

I fly the airplane down to a few feet before I flare. I have very little airspeed so the flare is quick. I don't let it touch until the yoke/stick hits the stops. Works well in what I've flown so far.

That's something else that might be a factor. I made sure to look at my speed on short final, and it was basically pegged at about 70 (in a 172R). So when I pulled back to idle, I should have been right in that 60 - 65 range, but I need to look at this a little closer as I cross the threshold.

 

[Kaye]

Just out of curiosity, do you drive a stick-shift (car)?

This may seem random, but my PPL instructor told a story about one of his students that, just as the wheels would touch the ground, he would veer off to the left of the runway. They kept working on landings and working on landings and he couldn't figure out why this guy - on every landing - would veer to the left just as the wheels touched the ground. He said at one point it was so bad that he (instructor) had to take the plane and do a go-around b/c they were headed for a taxiway sign.

Finally, completely out of the blue, it donned on him (instructor): The student drives a stick shift. When he starts to slow down in his car (landing in an airplane) he uses the clutch (left rudder) to slow down. His 'natural' feel for slowing his vehicle (car or plane) included his left leg extending on whatever peddle it was placed on. Once he figured this out, he simply had to harp on "Don't clutch it" during landings. I'm sure that led to some interesting driving stories, but at least he was able to land the airplane safely.

Just another option to consider.

Wow, Chris. I frequently find my left foot jammed against the rudder.....I'm always having to check and correct for that. Never thought about the fact that I have always driven a stick.

 

[jesse]

That's something else that might be a factor. I made sure to look at my speed on short final, and it was basically pegged at about 70 (in a 172R). So when I pulled back to idle, I should have been right in that 60 - 65 range, but I need to look at this a little closer as I cross the threshold.

I fly 65 at gross and slower for anything less. Some fields put me at 50 knots. 60 to 65 is a good place to start. 70 is going to just cause all kinds of problems for you. I bet if you slow it up things will fall in place.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's something else that might be a factor. I made sure to look at my speed on short final, and it was basically pegged at about 70 (in a 172R). So when I pulled back to idle, I should have been right in that 60 - 65 range, but I need to look at this a little closer as I cross the threshold.

70 sounds kinda fast. Try 65, or better yet 60 if you're not at gross. You won't float as much, and thus you won't have to do as much rudder-dancing. It really makes things much easier.

 

[jason]

One thing that helped me when i was fighting these kind of dances in ground effect was to keep in just a little bit of power clear to the squawk of the wheels. Just that little tiny touch of power makes all the difference in a Cherokee as it helps keep elevator authority clear through the flare. Even with that power I'm at the stops when I touch down.

 

[sbonek]

I fly 65 at gross and slower for anything less. Some fields put me at 50 knots. 60 to 65 is a good place to start. 70 is going to just cause all kinds of problems for you. I bet if you slow it up things will fall in place.

that could be part of it then. One thing I noticed when I first started flying the 182, was that it was harder to slow down when coming in to land, until you drop the 30's, then it got really slow. Maybe from flying the 182 for awhile, I'm expecting the 172 to be faster and I'm not slowing it down enough.

Before I take off on my X-C on Sunday, I'll probably do some pattern work to see if I can get this ironed out.

 

[Steve]

Another nuance to consider is do you unconciously add left aileron by lowering your arm as you pull back on the yoke during flare . This only applies if you use left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

As somebody pointed out, stomping on the rudder isn't going to help. If it really is a yaw problem, then you need to train your eyes, brain and feet to make immediate corrections, just like you have to do in an x-wind landing. It's impossible to say how much pedal you need -- you need just enough to keep the aircraft straight -- no more, no less. I would think a good CFI might help you get over the problem.

FWIW, we have a similar problem in helicopters. Every power change we make (with the collective) will induce a yaw which we have to correct for immediately, especially in a hover. How big a correction depends on a whole slew of variables -- weight, DA, winds, you name it. So we have to train ourselves to make automatic corrections without having to think about them.

And every puff of wind tries to make the bird weathercock which gives another dimension to the pedal corrections. But practice makes the use of the feet easy.

 

[AirBaker]

Is this only in the 182? I had this problem for the longest time and it mysteriously went away one day.

 

[sbonek]

Another nuance to consider is do you unconciously add left aileron by lowering your arm as you pull back on the yoke during flare . This only applies if you use left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle.

that's something else to consider. When I go out tomorrow, I will watch for that as well.

 

[sbonek]

As somebody pointed out, stomping on the rudder isn't going to help. If it really is a yaw problem, then you need to train your eyes, brain and feet to make immediate corrections, just like you have to do in an x-wind landing. It's impossible to say how much pedal you need -- you need just enough to keep the aircraft straight -- no more, no less. I would think a good CFI might help you get over the problem.

..snip..

Stomp might have been an over-statement on my part... I think I just need to anticipate the right-rudder a little more, and prevent the nose moving left to begin with. I'm usually focused on my airrspeed, a little nose up trim, watching the VASI or PAPI... I probably just need to add checking where my feet our as I'm crossing the fence to my mental list.

If I don't make any progress tomorrow, I will be getting with the Flight School manager to get me hooked up with a CFI (since my one and only one left a few weeks ago for the airlines) to get this figured out.

Thanks.

 

[sbonek]

Is this only in the 182? I had this problem for the longest time and it mysteriously went away one day.

it's actually more in the 172... with the 182, the biggest issue I have is getting ground shy and making sure I use enough trim to make it easier to flare... which leads me to believe it may really be an airspeed issue, or maybe it's just because I know that I have to be on the right-rudder even more in the 182, maybe that is why it hasn't occurred in the 182.

I think it's just something I'm subconsiously doing recently, and I'm hoping to get it cleared up tomorrow.

We'll see.

 

[poadeleted20]

To reiterate the first point, don't think in advance about what control input to make -- just make them as needed to put the plane where you want it. On the speed issue, don't look at the ASI -- instead, learn the attitude the plane should be in at the proper approach speed, set it, trim it, and then use power (not pitch) to manage your glide path/touchdown point. The keys are knowing the proper attitude for the approach, and flying the plane all the way through touchdown and rollout.

 

[sbonek]

I made some pretty good progress on this on Sunday. I took one trip around the pattern before launching on my X-C. I slowed it up a little so my speed on short final was about 65. As I got into ground effect, the nose swung to the left a little, but a little right rudder brought it back and all was good.

Had an interesting thing happen after I taxied back before leaving on my X-C. I was sitting at the hold-short line for a landing 172. Once the 172 had landed and cleared the runway, I did a check on to the south to see if I saw the Hawker that called 20 miles out as I was taxing, and I didn't, so I knew they were still out far enough for me to depart before they got close to airport. So I take a quick look down the length of the runway to see if anybody else is inbound and not talking, and low and behold, here comes an a/c from the opposite direction (landing runway 7 even though the calm wind runway is 25 and the winds were 3 - 4 knots). He never made any calls, so I assumed NORDO, but then after he landed and started taxing to his hangar, I hear him call UNICOM and ask for the Fuel truck to go to his hangar.... nice... just goes to show you that you always need to be looking in every direction at all times. Never assume anything.

Anyway, back to my story. After the guy landed on 7 and cleared the runway, I looked for the Hawker again (I believe they called being 10 miles out while the guy landed on 7) and didn't see them or anybody else, so off I went.

My X-C was to Mid Ohio Valley Regional in Parkersbug, WV. Had a good flight, a little bumpy at times, but all in all it was good flight. I snapped some pictures of beautiful Downtown Dayton on the way, and a couple airports I overflew. I'll have to get them off the camera to see if any of them are any good, and if so, I will post them.

My landing a PKB was good, had a little confusion on the runway that tower wanted me to line up on, but we worked out, and the landing was very good. I watched the nose closely to be ready to bring in some right rudder if it wandered to the left, and the landing was right down the centerline.

After taking my picture for the CONUS challenge, was back on my way back to MQJ. My landing there was also right down the centerline, but I had a moment of ground shy-ness and had to bring a little power in to smooth it out.

All in all a good trip. I'll continue to work on my landings, and hopefully the yaw-ing in ground effect will no longer be an issue.

Thanks for everybody's suggestions.

 

[gprellwitz]

Had an interesting thing happen after I taxied back before leaving on my X-C. I was sitting at the hold-short line for a landing 172. Once the 172 had landed and cleared the runway, I did a check on to the south to see if I saw the Hawker that called 20 miles out as I was taxing, and I didn't, so I knew they were still out far enough for me to depart before they got close to airport. So I take a quick look down the length of the runway to see if anybody else is inbound and not talking, and low and behold, here comes an a/c from the opposite direction (landing runway 7 even though the calm wind runway is 25 and the winds were 3 - 4 knots). He never made any calls, so I assumed NORDO, but then after he landed and started taxing to his hangar, I hear him call UNICOM and ask for the Fuel truck to go to his hangar.... nice... just goes to show you that you always need to be looking in every direction at all times. Never assume anything.

Legal, but scary. You're right. You DO need to look both ways!

 

[sbonek]

Legal, but scary. You're right. You DO need to look both ways!

I was shocked to see somebody actually landing on Runway 7. The wind is almost never out of the East... in the almost 2 years I've been flying, I've never departed or landed on 7.... the one time me and my instructor tried to use it, we had an issue with a mag on the runup, and ended up taxing back and calling it a night....

 

[jesse]

I was shocked to see somebody actually landing on Runway 7. The wind is almost never out of the East... in the almost 2 years I've been flying, I've never departed or landed on 7.... the one time me and my instructor tried to use it, we had an issue with a mag on the runup, and ended up taxing back and calling it a night....

I might land downwind if it were only a couple of knots. Being unfamiliar with the area would mean that I'd have no idea what the "calm wind" runway was. Just keep your eyes open.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

He never made any calls, so I assumed NORDO, but then after he landed and started taxing to his hangar, I hear him call UNICOM and ask for the Fuel truck to go to his hangar.... nice... just goes to show you that you always need to be looking in every direction at all times. Never assume anything.

Some people just don't like the radio, period. I had the same thing happen only slightly worse... The guy didn't even have his radio tuned. Twin landing DLL fairly late at night, I was in an Archer. I called taxiing out and saw the guy's landing light when I got near the runway. He landed opposite of the direction we were going to take off, and despite my position reports he landed, taxied all the way to the end of the runway (probably close to his hangar), and got nose-to-nose with me on the taxiway before he finally noticed. He stopped, turned on his radio, and chastised me for being in his way. He'd even shut an engine down by the time he noticed me, so I had to turn around on the taxiway and go back around and backtaxi on the runway.

You're darn right... Never assume anything. There's NORDO, and there's NOBRN.