Landing tail low?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by alaskan9974, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Isn't the stall defined as that AOA where any increase in AOA causes a decrease in lift?

    Landing the Citabria and rolling the tailwheel on, you smoothly get the stick all the way back, and the wings and mains come down regardless. Maybe it's just semantics, but when that happens it sure seems like one is in the stall region, by definition, whether all or part of the wing is stalled.
     
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  2. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Compare it to an actual stall at altitude.
     
  3. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    Right, we talk about stall speed, but in reality it is (or should be, for a well designed airplane) a gradual process, with the region of separated flow starting at the wing root and progressing outward as AOA increases. Most aircraft can maintain level flight with some part of the wing stalled (that's the "pre-stall buffett"). Also some airfoils have a sharp break with rapid decrease of lift and increase of drag while with others it's much more gradual.
     
  4. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    In my Cessna I wheel land tail low almost exclusively. It provides the slowest speed with the best view forward and is a good position to be in for a go-around. Unless you’re carrying power and dragging it in on the prop the tail low attitude is very easy to achieve and maintain all the way down on final. It you’re hitting tail first I’d bet you’re flaring? In my book that means you had excess speed on final. And probably not steep enough on final. The earlier comment about relative wind was spot-on. Steeper allows slower forward speeds and the shortest landings.

    In my Cub when I try to scrub speed by flaring I’m guaranteed to hit tail first. The tail rebounds into the air and AOA changes dramatically. Not the stuff of precise landings, let alone short landings. Hitting tail first is a mistake. Or an indication that you need more static AOA. Big tires help. So does extending the gear. I use both. If I hit tail first now? My final leg wasn’t steep enough.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  5. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    B.D. Maule advocated the tail first double womp landing.
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    He also recommended against wheel landings, in part because Maules are more tail-heavy than a lot of airplanes, so they’re more difficult...so difficult, in fact, that my nephew did a perfect one when he was 2 1/2. ;)
     
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  7. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    My Husky A1 POH doesn't have a wheel landing procedure for any circumstance.
    (That hasn't stopped me from doing them, but it's the exception)
     
  8. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And taxiing out of the hangar.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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  10. alaskan9974

    alaskan9974 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I prefer to drag it in under power, chop the power once the tail hits, the mains drop almost immediately. Probably doesn't look pretty but sure stops quicker.

    First CFI said come in on mains first tail low for short field, second CFI taught me full stall with tail hitting first followed shortly by mains is better.

    Probably pretty close between each but it feels like a slower final approach speed and rollout with the first method. Not that it matters in the end I still need more length to take off.
     
  11. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    If you've been to the Maule factory you'll know that hangar is about 300 feet long and open at both ends with a good length of pavement at each so old Belford had a good run and was probably doing 70 mph when he came out that door.

    As far as tail high, low, first... this is for students who, over the past twenty years or so have been forced to read overly lengthy textbooks and think way too much about the physics of landing a conventional geared aircraft. When I learned to fly they'd put a sixteen year old kid in a J3 after about five hours of teaching and let him solo. You think he had time to read any of those books? Once you have a decent amount of time in your plane (and I mean yours because they are not all the same) you will pretty much do it however you want whenever you want and not think much about it.
     
  12. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    It matters when you go someplace short with obstacles and A- need full control to miss things like logs or holes and B- to be ready to go around instantly when A didn’t work.
     
  13. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pattern Altitude

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    Joy at Texas Tail Draggers taught me tail wheel. No books, no ground. She said the CG is behind the mains, then we jumped in the 7GCBC. 3 pointers, 2 pointers, one wheelers down the length of the runway, her pressing on the rudder pedals (the wrong way) to get me out of wack. 7 hours later she signed my endorsement and cautioned me to get additional training in the plane I buy. No two are alike. Every landing requires adaptation to the conditions.

    I ended up with a C170B, and after 5 hours of dual I felt confident to solo. That was 100 hours ago. I’m loving the three point landings, but practice the two pointers for fun. At this point, crosswind landings don’t worry me, but I avoid exceeding a 15 kt crosswind component if able.
     
  14. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    This is a great comment. I’ve met a number of pilots who need to read and re-read this.

    “Sink rate. Sink rate.”
     
  15. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    The story as someone else researched and found quotes about here, years ago, also included attaching a 4 x 4 to the floor just inside the shadow line in the photo.

    The aircraft was bounced into the air for the shot. It then flew fine after that, but it got a little bump to get it airborne.

    No idea where that thread is in the archives now.
     
  16. rwellner98

    rwellner98 Line Up and Wait

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    True story

    Yeah, I mean, I get that when the guy who designed the plane says to do it one way, then a lot of people will take that advice. I know I did. But I'm a much happier and, I believe, safer pilot being able to do both. And, having both in my toolbox, I do find myself doing a lot more wheelies than three points.