Landing sight picture and multiple airplanes

[Bill]

I don't know if there is an answer for this one, but I'll float it anyway. Our club has three aircraft (172, PA-28, 182), and I find trouble getting good landings from the varying sight picture in roundout and flair. I always land the 172 nicely, as I have the most hours in that plane, including my PP and IR. The others, I can get consistant good landings after flying it for a while, but my first few are fairly rough. My biggest problem is rounding out and stalling a little high, causing a firm touchdown.

For those who fly multiple planes, do you have trouble with the different sight pictures? Any hints and tips?

 

[Henning]

I don't know if there is an answer for this one, but I'll float it anyway. Our club has three aircraft (172, PA-28, 182), and I find trouble getting good landings from the varying sight picture in roundout and flair. I always land the 172 nicely, as I have the most hours in that plane, including my PP and IR. The others, I can get consistant good landings after flying it for a while, but my first few are fairly rough. My biggest problem is rounding out and stalling a little high, causing a firm touchdown.

For those who fly multiple planes, do you have trouble with the different sight pictures? Any hints and tips?

Before your first flight, do a highspeed taxi test. Trim full nose up, hit the throttle till the nose comes off the ground and just keep rolling down the runway in landing attitude. Look around, let your brain absorb the periferal cues. If you can, back taxi doing the same thing. Now, retrim the airplane and go fly.

 

[Bill]

Before your first flight, do a highspeed taxi test. Trim full nose up, hit the throttle till the nose comes off the ground and just keep rolling down the runway in landing attitude. Look around, let your brain absorb the periferal cues. If you can, back taxi doing the same thing. Now, retrim the airplane and go fly.

I could try that at one of the uncontrolled airports, but we're based at a class C, and I'd think the guys in the cab aren't going to let me do that one. (but I'll ask)

Is this one of the things you do when your checking yourself out in an unfamiliar single place plane? (I know you've done that plenty)

 

[Henning]

I could try that at one of the uncontrolled airports, but we're based at a class C, and I'd think the guys in the cab aren't going to let me do that one. (but I'll ask)

Is this one of the things you do when your checking yourself out in an unfamiliar single place plane? (I know you've done that plenty)

It's probably the main part of the routine. The tower will most certainly allow a "High Speed Taxi Test", just call em up and ask for exactly that. They may not give you the high speed back taxi on the runway, but they always will give the proper direction.

 

[gismo]

I could try that at one of the uncontrolled airports, but we're based at a class C, and I'd think the guys in the cab aren't going to let me do that one. (but I'll ask)

If you avoid rush periods, I'll bet they will grant your request for a high speed taxi test. If not you can get the same thing on a long runway without any special request/permission. Just start your normal takeoff roll and pull the power back to runnup RPM just before you rotate. Take in the view for several seconds and then go back to full power when you are at least 1000 ft from the runway end (more if obstructed).

Is this one of the things you do when your checking yourself out in an unfamiliar single place plane? (I know you've done that plenty)

Not Henning, but that's what I try to do the first time in any unfamiliar plane. If I'm not actually flying the takeoff, I take a mental snapshot of the sight picture when the plane rotates. With a taildragger, WYSIWYG from the get go unless you want to do a wheel landing.

One other trick for landing in a not so familiar airplane if you have plenty of runway is to leave enough power on to lengthen the time spent in the flare (about 1300 RPM in most light singles, less in a Mooney). That way you can set up a 50-100 FPM sink from 5-10 ft above the runway just by looking well down the runway without any clear idea of when you will actually touch. And I think anyone can judge 5-10 ft from almost any single and most twins.

Finally, if any or all the planes have height adjustable seats, try adjusting your position so that the glareshield hits the horizon at about the same angle of attack in all three planes you fly regularly. Much of the sight picture difference comes from glareshield height. Assuming the plane sits in a 1-3 degree nose up stance at rest, you can pick out something on the ground about 4 times further from the nose than your glareshield height above the ground. That will be the stalling pitch attitude.

 

[Bill]

Thanks, Lance. Yes, two of the planes have adjustable seat height, I'll give that a try.

 

[infotango]

Nowhere near as experienced as lance and henning, but you might try sitting in the cockpit and having an instructor or other willing person push down on the tail so that it is at the right landing attitude. It's like the high speed taxi test but without the danger.

 

[Bill]

It's like the high speed taxi test but without the danger.

That is not a bad idea at all, as long as you can do it on a taxiway for something where you can get a good runway environment like picture. I like it.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You definitely have to make an effort to remember the sight picture on takeoff, it may be hours til you have to use it...and during takeoff in a new-to-you-plane, its easily forgotten.

 

[poadeleted20]

Biggest thing is to think about this during takeoff, and remember the picture from liftoff, because the landing picture should be pretty much the same.

 

[AirBaker]

Ah, the downside to having soo many aircraft to choose from.

My only recent experience is in a 206 and the Bonanza. The nose on the 206 is less sloped than that of the Bonanza, so I have to make pull back more on that yoke.

 

[Henning]

Nowhere near as experienced as lance and henning, but you might try sitting in the cockpit and having an instructor or other willing person push down on the tail so that it is at the right landing attitude. It's like the high speed taxi test but without the danger.

Danger in a taxi test?

 

[infotango]

Danger in a taxi test?

You wouldn't think so, but when I used to work at an airport we ended up having to fix the fence at the end of our runway two or three times due to high speed taxi tests. Maybe we just had a bunch of inept pilots or our runway was unusually short, (3000) but running into a fence in a Grumman or Piper is not too nice to your prop and nose gear. (And wasn't too nice to the wallets of the pilots either.)

 

[kevin47881]

Thanks, Lance. Yes, two of the planes have adjustable seat height, I'll give that a try.

Bill, that was the biggest problem I had going from the archer to the 172. I'm quite short (5'5")and had a better sight picture in the archer. Once I got the seat adjusted properly in the 172 (can't go up or down in the arhcer I rented) my landings improved dramatically.

 

[Bill]

I'm starting to wonder if my trouble Saturday was more a day/night issue than airplane issue. Granted, I hadn't flown the Skylane in about a month, but it had also been almost three months since I've made a daylight flight. All of my flights since mid-December have been at night.

Case in point: Saturday, 182, daylight, two fairly firm landings. Last night, 182, 10kt crosswind at 80 degrees, and I put it on smooth as a babies bottom.

Could it be day/night?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Good thread, Bill!

I fly 3-4 times as many hours a year in helicopters versus airplanes. What screws me up if I'm not careful is that the sight picture leads me to fly a tighter, steeper approach in an airplane than I should, which makes me come in high. I have to force myself to extend my downwind so this doesn't happen.

(In the R22, I fly my downwind about 1/2 mile from the runway, and turn base no more than a couple hundred feet past the numbers. Unless I plan to land on the numbers, I don't even start my descent from pattern altitude (500 AGL) until well along the base leg or even after the turn to final if I want to get off at a more distant intersection).

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Hey, and all this time I've been usin grease pencils and hats! These are great suggestions!

Grease pencils are great. Like Dave said, it could be hours before you see the sight picture again--just mark it with a grease pencil. That's how we calibrated our rocket firings on the Cobra canopy---opps! That may still be classified!

Hats are great for crabbing! 'Specially in rotary wing!! Line up the bill with the nose--face to the runway. Allows you to practice crabbing on the ground!!

Best,

Dave

 

[jdwatson]

Bill,
I feel for you. I fly 3 Cessnas, 172, 172RG & T206H and all three look different out the window. What I've learned to do is to find something in each cockpit that I can align my eyes to to get the seat in the same spot for that plane. The other is I basically fly like it's an IFR approach, by the numbers all the way to the flare. Like others, when I'm rusty I'll leave a little power in and just ease my way to touchdown.

I'd like to try a high speed taxi sometime. There's not a day that goes by when I don't pick up something new here. Thanks !

 

[Steve]

I guess I'm a little different from the rest of the herd. As a renter I've flown many different airframes, low/high wing included. I don't recall consciously trying to accomodate a different "sight picture" for different aircraft. I do try to fly the plane to establish a common "sight picture" with reference to the runway, adjusting it for length and width differences, and primarily aiming to establish and maintain a familiar "sight line" of the far and near ends of the runway. The differences in the planes I've flown have more to do with how much time I have to set up a "stabilized" approach to get to the desired sight line on final, with these considerations, which I consider a factor of approach speed. The C320 did it at 105kts, the IAR does it at 150kph (81kts). I still try to set them both down at the same point on the runway. A faster plane takes more room (line up further out) to make the time the same as a slower plane. We're talking VFR landings here. IFR you fly the approach profile and take what you get (which is usually pretty benign if the ceilings are legal).

It's not like we're switching between 747's and J-3's.

I think Bill's on track with the perception differences of day/night conditions.

My 2¢

 

[Chas]

I've only flown C152s, C172s and an Ercoupe to date, but here's my .02:
I agree with the last post that it's all about the sight picture out the front and side windows in the flare for me. Also, lately what I've been doing, esp. if I haven't flown for a while and need to get the head straight, is getting clearance for a "low approach" or "cleared for the option", coming in as usual to mid-flare, then add power as appropriate to maintain a precise airspeed (e.g. 65KIAS, or 55KIAS) and fly along about 10 ft above the runway centerline, until you get about 1000 ft from the end of the runway. Then go TOGA of course, just don't raise any flaps until you've got the airspeed and some altitude. This is a wonderful exercise for many reasons, one of which is to really nail that landing sight picture. Also, you can go from 10 ft to 0 ft (ever so soft TD), then up to 10 ft again, then down and up again, if you've got enough runway of course . Do it with and without various degrees of flap. Great stuff.

 

[bbchien]

For those who fly multiple planes, do you have trouble with the different sight pictures? Any hints and tips?

I frequently get asked if I would ferry a aircraft. Never mind the insurance considerations....which is what makes these not pure fun.

Not only what Henning suggest (which is STANDARD in a new type or a low time type) but then the airwork....will it talk to me or will it just rollover? How much warning- how much mush....all done enroute in the ferry. Gotta know before the landing....