Landing right of way- Scenario

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
9,034
Location
Near DC
Display Name
Display name:
Jaybird180
I saw something very similar happen the other day and thought I'd ask the question. Although this scenario is based on a real-life situation, I've embellished for dramatic effect and discussion. There was no disaster in the real life version and probably no cause for alarm. Here is my version of events:

Two aircraft on IFR flight plan in actual IMC with the same destination talk to approach control. The aircraft were coming from different sectors and in transit they were in communication with different controllers on discrete frequencies. Coincidentally, each aircraft is advised to change frequency to contact tower at the busy Class Bravo at approximately the same time. Visibility is down to minimums at 800 RVR with a solid cloud deck at 1,500 feet.

You are witnessing all the action and can hear with your trusty 2-way radio, when you see aircraft #1, a commuter jet emerge from the soup and on final approach, full flaps, gear down, throttles at low setting and pitched-up to minimum airspeed. Aircraft #2, a fast-moving helicopter is behind, 20 degrees offset, level at 1,000 feet and clearly overtaking the jet. You are close enough to the action that with your binoculars you think you see similarities in the aircraft registration numbers and you believe both aircraft think they are cleared for landing and neither sees the other aircraft. Both aircraft key up the mic to acknowledge to the tower that they understood they are cleared for landing. The tower operator trainee doesn’t know that he’s expecting two dissimilar aircraft with similar call-signs.

You are now watching the makings of a mid-air on final approach and the frequency is eerily silent.

3 Questions: Do you key up your mic and get involved? If this were a NORDO situation, which aircraft has the right of way? A collision is imminent. If you decided to get involved, what do you say?
 
Last edited:
It's a helo. He's not going to keep that speed all the way to the runway. He will slow up and the jet will stay well ahead of him.
 
if they were at an uncontrolled field and vfr I'd speak up.. otherwise in this situation I would probably just stay off the frequency and let the controllers do their job. If you yell something into the radio at the last minute and you are not clear . .. and they hit anyway you could get accused of 'confusing' them. It would be especially bad if you stepped on a controller's transmission
 
If they are IFR then ATC will have radar convergence alarms and he'll get it sorted out pretty quick.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Faith-Based responses???

:stirpot:
Click to expand...

Let's just say that we want to hear the facts from the un-embellished version. As you have laid it out, I have a hard time believing that it would occur that way for a few reasons, some which have already been mentioned.
 
The real-life version is boring, but since you asked:

I saw a helo at lower altitude overtaking an airliner on final. I'm assuming that since I didn't see it on the news nor was there any smoke everthing turned out alright.

I asked my non-pilot wife who she thought had right-of-way and even she had an opinion. No one here has even touched that.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Faith-Based responses???

:stirpot:
Click to expand...

Well, a jet has to carry say...130kts on final approach - all the way to touchdown. I've never seen a helicopter land at 130kts and not end up in a million pieces.
 
Interesting scenario. Me I keep my mouth shut. First How do I know what the respective pilots know and see or what the Controller knows, sees or is going to do. I'd think one has a much greater chance of creating havoc by a voice inexperienced in ATC chiming in and gumming up the freq. Thats just bad juju IMHO.
 
Jaybird180 said:
which aircraft has the right of way?
Click to expand...
I believe the fixed wing a/c generally has the right of way over a helicopter.

The other day a hot air balloon was near my base leg. He had right of way, but was kind enough to realize he was snarling traffic and landed.
 
EdFred said:
Well, a jet has to carry say...130kts on final approach - all the way to touchdown. I've never seen a helicopter land at 130kts and not end up in a million pieces.
Click to expand...

I'm sure he intended to land at 0kts, but in real-life the guy was moving and was overtaking the airplane at higher altitude. I doubt the jet saw him. If it matters to you, the helo was non-reflective drab in color.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I saw something very similar happen the other day and thought I'd ask the question. Although this scenario is based on a real-life situation, I've embellished for dramatic effect and discussion. There was no disaster in the real life version and probably no cause for alarm. Here is my version of events:

Two aircraft on IFR flight plan in actual IMC with the same destination talk to approach control. The aircraft were coming from different sectors and in transit they were in communication with different controllers on discrete frequencies. Coincidentally, each aircraft is advised to change frequency to contact tower at the busy Class Bravo at approximately the same time. Visibility is down to minimums at 800 RVR with a solid cloud deck at 1,500 feet.

You are witnessing all the action and can hear with your trusty 2-way radio, when you see aircraft #1, a commuter jet emerge from the soup and on final approach, full flaps, gear down, throttles at low setting and pitched-up to minimum airspeed. Aircraft #2, a fast-moving helicopter is behind, 20 degrees offset, level at 1,000 feet and clearly overtaking the jet. You are close enough to the action that with your binoculars you think you see similarities in the aircraft registration numbers and you believe both aircraft think they are cleared for landing and neither sees the other aircraft. Both aircraft key up the mic to acknowledge to the tower that they understood they are cleared for landing. The tower operator trainee doesn’t know that he’s expecting two dissimilar aircraft with similar call-signs.

You are now watching the makings of a mid-air on final approach and the frequency is eerily silent.

3 Questions: Do you key up your mic and get involved? If this were a NORDO situation, which aircraft has the right of way? A collision is imminent. If you decided to get involved, what do you say?
Click to expand...

I got involved once when I was witnessing a Seneca trailing an Arrow trailing a 150 on downwind all flying into the sun with a controller whose voice I didn't recognize (also looking into the sun at them) & on top of that we were landing 07R&L which happens maybe twice a year. I told the Seneca to make left 720, the Arrow to turn base and the 150 to extend. 15 seconds later after clearing things up a voice I most certainly recognized told me to taxi to the tower. I thought I cost myself my ticket. Instead the old man comes out and thanked me. "I was coming back from the bathroom when I heard you."
 
Last edited:
Jaybird180 said:
The real-life version is boring, but since you asked:

I saw a helo at lower altitude overtaking an airliner on final. I'm assuming that since I didn't see it on the news nor was there any smoke everthing turned out alright.

I asked my non-pilot wife who she thought had right-of-way and even she had an opinion. No one here has even touched that.
Click to expand...

Typically Helos and Fixed wing don't share a pattern.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The real-life version is boring, but since you asked:

I saw a helo at lower altitude overtaking an airliner on final. I'm assuming that since I didn't see it on the news nor was there any smoke everthing turned out alright.

I asked my non-pilot wife who she thought had right-of-way and even she had an opinion. No one here has even touched that.
Click to expand...

How did you know the helicopter was IFR? If the ceiling was 1,500 and RVR was 800, how were you able to see both? If you were able to see both, how do you know the helicopter, who was higher, didn't have visual contact on the regional jet?

Did you make up the tail number part? Airliners don't use tail numbers as call signs so there'd be no confusion there. How do you know the controller is a trainee?

Piecing things together, I'm guessing you witnessed this at DCA, presumeably from the ground (Gravelly point or Wilson Bridge) while listening to your handheld. that's one of the few airports where airliners and military helicopter traffic frequent the same airspace on a frequent basis. Helicopter routes run up and down the river, and helicopter traffic follows up and down the river at 200ft and below, or directly over the airport at 1,000ft. Helicopters are generally on a different tower frequency, and must make visual contact with arrivals and departures if their paths intersect.

To answer your question, I would do absolutely nothing. In the scenario you described, you'd be more likely to cause confusion rather than prevent a collision. In weather conditions described, dissimilar aircraft moving at different speeds can present optical illusions. I have to imagine the controller and the two crews would have better situational awreness than someone observing from the ground.
 
According to 91.113(f), if the helo was overtaking the commuter,the commuter had the right-of-way and the helo was required to alter course to the right. Then you get into (g) and the question of who is lower, but in this situation it seems pretty clear that the onus is on the helo to stay clear.

Bob Gardner
 
Based on my (limited) experience at JNU we have separate traffic patterns for helo's (lot of helo traffic there) and fixed wing (lot of small planes, as well as 737's).

The 737's all go by "Alaska 61" as in Alaska Airlines flight #61. They don't use a tail number.

The helo's go by "Coastal something something" (I tune out once I know it's a helo really) which is the helo's company. I don't know if the "something something" is a flight number or tail number or otherwise. PS I don't tune all the way out, but I'm usually trying to land at that point.

I wouldn't go on the radio any more than necessary (required). I will leave it to the pros.

Interesting scenario to think about tho.
 
I think I'd stay off the frequency.

The tower controller had to *accept* both of those arrivals from the other controllers. They also have probably been watching them both on their DBRITE.

The system ain't perfect (Henning's story) but there's a lot more going on than what you hear on the radio.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top