Landing Priority: IFR or VFR?

[Tommy3]

Hi everyone--I'm a Private Pilot now, but I've got a question from my Student Pilot days that I've always been curious about.

So I'm flying solo at my non-towered airport, doing pattern work. Midfield downwind I get a radio call on the CTAF from an IFR airplane flying straight in to land. I see him and it seems to me like I'm going to be landing first. I let him know where I am in my pattern, make radio calls turning to base, turning final. No complaints, everything normal.

I land but am still on the runway when he's on short final so he does a go-around. That all seems correct except that he gets on the CTAF and is not pleased that I landed in front of him and lets everyone know it.

Now, from my perspective, the field is VFR and we're all in this nice little pattern and homeboy can't just do a straight-in and get in everyone's way, but I'm not sure about that. Is it correct? Ideally, shouldn't he join the downwind on a 45 just like everyone else? Or do we all have to defer to landing IFR traffic? Thanks!

 

[mikea]

IFR traffic doesn't have priority or any bearing whatsoever (contrary to what they may believe.)

You could have told Mr. IFR to stick it up his IMC where the sun don't shine.

 

[GCA319]

Normal right of way rules apply (who was lower?).

 

[BillTIZ]

Normal right of way rules apply (who was lower?).

I know the "who is lower" may be the correct answer, but I hate it.
To prove a point I may be 2nm out on a long final in my 85knt Pawnee at 500ft AGL when I call "Final" for the runway. (There is no need for a Pawnee to be above 500ft unless he has a glider on tow for altitude.)

So, I'm 2nm out on final at 500ft, two other aircraft on downwind at 800-1000 AGL. To bad so sad, they both could easily land before I get there with no issues. But I'm lower and called final, so the runway is mine!

B.S and some more Double B.S.

Maybe the O.P. Misjudged how fast the IFR inbound was traveling and should have extended his downwind to accommodate.? Maybe he did "cutoff" the inbound and the pilot had a right to be upset, but not just because he was IFR.

And if the weather was good enough for Visual traffic pattern operations, did the "IFR" pilot cancel IFR when he left the center freq so he really is not "IFR"?

Just some other thoughts to consider.

 

[BillTIZ]

Normal right of way rules apply (who was lower?).

Another consideration, I'm in a glider on downwind and get hit hard by a downdraft. That "IFR" on final on a clear blue day is going to be going around.
Radio calls made, response received form the IFR. Sorry dude, lower does not cut it, you got motors, I don't.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It's always going to work out better if we are willing to make reasonable accommodations for 'the other guy'. I've been in both places and it really is not hard to slow, or extend, as necessary, even a 360 - so everyone can get in.
Let's not make it like I-35 Friday pm of a long weekend.

 

[poadeleted20]

Aircraft in the pattern do not have right-of-way over aircraft making a straight-in final approach, and "who was lower" is not controlling in this case. If he was established on final, and you turned in front of him, and he had to go around because of that, you're the one whom the FAA will say violated 91.113(g) even if you were lower.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

This is, regrettably, a point which is often not well-understood or well-taught in primary training, and can lead to situations like yours.

 

[ronnieh]

GCA has it correct. However a few more details might be useful. How far out was the other plane when you turned final?
Also, though not directly relative, what type aircraft was it. If by chance he was with in 3 miles before you turned final then he was on final first and if he was a good bit faster it might have been good form to have extended the down wind. Many times a little common courtesy goes a long ways, on both sides. If the plane was a business jet and you are a 152 it would have been nice for you to have deferred. Not required, just nice. I have on more than one occasion been on a five mile final when somebody on the down wind volunteered to extend and let me in. I always thank them. I have a few times asked if I could "sneek" in ahead of somebody and it has been granted and I thank them. Again GCA is correct normal rules apply and IFR or VFR makes no difference. GCA does not exactly have the rules correct, I see Ron has stepped in and explained it correctly.
EDIT: Ron is correct. However it is generaly considered to be on final once with in 3 miles of the airport.

 

[poadeleted20]

Another consideration, I'm in a glider on downwind and get hit hard by a downdraft. That "IFR" on final on a clear blue day is going to be going around.
Radio calls made, response received form the IFR. Sorry dude, lower does not cut it, you got motors, I don't.

Glider vs powered plane is an exception to the basic 91.113(g) rules.

 

[poadeleted20]

GCA has it correct.

No, GCA does not. See the reg posted above -- "established on final" trumps "lower" in this case.

 

[ronnieh]

I fixed what I said. I was talking about IFR verses VFR

 

[Jeanie]

Happened to me and my student just the other day - we're in a C152 turning Base - we are mid base and a twin Cessna calls a 1.5 mile final - I look up and see him coming right on in - we had made all our calls ..... on his initial call up I wasn't sure if he was coming into our aiport and if so he used the wrong runway number so I thought maybe he would be straight in to the longer bigger runway - wind was light...
Anyway, I look up and see him - I take the controls and turn off base to avoid being in front of this faster determined pilot - he finally gets that we're on base only 1/4 from the rwy and diverts for us - I re establish final, give the controls back to the student and it works out OK.... after out touch and go we announce will extend downwind for the twin that is re-establishing his approach.
No paint shared, no harm done - good learning situation for the student.
I'm always in favor of extending downwind, making a turn, s l o w i n g down (ha, yes in the 152- slow? can you say already slow?) or whatever makes sense to stay "out of the way" of the big guy coming in. Just common courtesy - unless they are way out- as in 3-5 miles, then well, short approaches and/or regular patterns are fine.

 

[BillTIZ]

Glider vs powered plane is an exception to the basic 91.113(g) rules.

Agreed, but I've had powered pilots challenge me on the ground after landing.

We also had a temporary tower for a fly-in. We in the glider club had met with the tower operators that when a glider pilot left the local ridge we would call the tower. Please expect that the glider will go straight to a midfield downwind and expect a landing clearance with no delay. If not received we would land on the infield between downwind and the runway.

I was on downwind turning base and had been cleared to land. Tower tried to change the sequence and slip a Cessna in front of me. I had no visual on the Cessna and responded "Negative!"

Tower sent the Cessna around and I saw him climb out. I was in the back seat of an L-13 with limited view forward and down. The tower chief came over and apologized. I took him for a free ride after the tower closed so he could see what I could not see.

 

[Everskyward]

Maybe the O.P. Misjudged how fast the IFR inbound was traveling and should have extended his downwind to accommodate.?

I find that this happens on occasion. There are quite a few airplanes that fly their final twice as fast as some of the slower airplanes. Five mile final is not all that far out for some airplanes.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Glider vs powered plane is an exception to the basic 91.113(g) rules.

Where is this exception in the regs?

In BTIZ's scenario, the glider could reasonably claim to be in distress, therefore having the right of way. But I'm not sure why the material in the section on converging aircraft would apply since it was presumably made a paragraph distinct from landing aircraft. It could apply in some joint manner I suppose, but the organization of 91.113 seems to me to indicate an intent to carve out several mutually exclusive regulatory scenarios.

 

[Morne]

I see him and it seems to me like I'm going to be landing first.

First, there's what is required and THEN there's what is courteous.

Second, unlike on the roads arguing about "right of way" following a collision is rather more traumatic with aircraft. You can be right and dead.

 

[jesse]

First, there's what is required and THEN there's what is courteous.

Second, unlike on the roads arguing about "right of way" following a collision is rather more traumatic with aircraft. You can be right and dead.

+1 -- if I'm on downwind I'll usually try to coordinate with the straight in traffic and I'll generally just extend my downwind and come in behind them.

 

[BellyUpFish]

Levy is right, the guy on final has it.

If a biz jet is 5+ miles he's probably doing 120ish. That's 2 miles a minute, so you've less than 2 minutes to be down and clear.

5 miles is pushing it.
10 miles, my runway.

 

[roncachamp]

Hi everyone--I'm a Private Pilot now, but I've got a question from my Student Pilot days that I've always been curious about.

So I'm flying solo at my non-towered airport, doing pattern work. Midfield downwind I get a radio call on the CTAF from an IFR airplane flying straight in to land. I see him and it seems to me like I'm going to be landing first. I let him know where I am in my pattern, make radio calls turning to base, turning final. No complaints, everything normal.

I land but am still on the runway when he's on short final so he does a go-around. That all seems correct except that he gets on the CTAF and is not pleased that I landed in front of him and lets everyone know it.

Now, from my perspective, the field is VFR and we're all in this nice little pattern and homeboy can't just do a straight-in and get in everyone's way, but I'm not sure about that. Is it correct? Ideally, shouldn't he join the downwind on a 45 just like everyone else? Or do we all have to defer to landing IFR traffic? Thanks!

A straight-in approach is perfectly legal. "Homeboy" had the right-of-way not because he was IFR but because he was on final.


§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.


(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

 

[roncachamp]

IFR traffic doesn't have priority or any bearing whatsoever (contrary to what they may believe.)

The lower aircraft has the right of way.

You could have told Mr. IFR to stick it up his IMC where the sun don't shine.

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.


(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

 

[Geico266]

+1 -- if I'm on downwind I'll usually try to coordinate with the straight in traffic and I'll generally just extend my downwind and come in behind them.

Exactly. I am VFR, but I get that IFR guys need to stay current. If I can accomidate a straight in no problem, extend the down wind or leave the pattern for 10 mins. I am just flying, they are working.

 

[rottydaddy]

Glider vs powered plane is an exception to the basic 91.113(g) rules.

It may be an exception to (g), but (d) indicates why that is so: maneuverability. Gliders are extremely limited in the ability to go up... that hampers a go-around considerably. It can also be an issue in any scenario where a glider and a powered aircraft are converging.

I think that whole right-of-way section lacks clarity- but when it comes to glider vs airplane in the landing phase, it's a matter of common sense.

 

[ronnieh]

Geico, IFR guys need to stay current? What does that mean?

 

[Geico266]

Geico, IFR guys need to stay current? What does that mean?

An IFR rating requires X number of precision instrument approachs in a given period of time to remain current. If I hear a pilot flying a straight in approach or GPS approach I assume the are " staying current' " and give way. I routinely fly safety pilot with these guys. They are under the hood, I am along for the ride having a beer.

Kidding about the beer.

 

[poadeleted20]

An IFR rating requires X number of precision instrument approachs in a given period of time to remain current. If I hear a pilot flying a straight in approach or GPS approach I assume the are " staying current' " and give way. I routinely fly safety pilot with these guys. They are under the hood, I am along for the ride having a beer.

Kidding about the beer.

While the FAA some time back proposed minimum numbers of precision and nonprecision approaches for IFR currency, they dropped that idea and stuck with six approaches of any kind.

 

[N801BH]

Hi everyone--I'm a Private Pilot now, but I've got a question from my Student Pilot days that I've always been curious about.

So I'm flying solo at my non-towered airport, doing pattern work. Midfield downwind I get a radio call on the CTAF from an IFR airplane flying straight in to land. I see him and it seems to me like I'm going to be landing first. I let him know where I am in my pattern, make radio calls turning to base, turning final. No complaints, everything normal.

I land but am still on the runway when he's on short final so he does a go-around. That all seems correct except that he gets on the CTAF and is not pleased that I landed in front of him and lets everyone know it.

Now, from my perspective, the field is VFR and we're all in this nice little pattern and homeboy can't just do a straight-in and get in everyone's way, but I'm not sure about that. Is it correct? Ideally, shouldn't he join the downwind on a 45 just like everyone else? Or do we all have to defer to landing IFR traffic? Thanks!

The fact this is your first post is interesting.

Just extending your downwind would have seemed to be the safe and prudent thing to do. What would have happened Just added another two minutes to your flight.

... By calling him " homeboy" iced the cake for me in determining your attitude....

Next time give way to traffic on final....

 

[taters]

IFR traffic is supposedly given "first come first serve" per the FAA. Ya..right...even in a turboprop I ALWAYS got the shaft at a class b

 

[taters]

Exactly. I am VFR, but I get that IFR guys need to stay current. If I can accomidate a straight in no problem, extend the down wind or leave the pattern for 10 mins. I am just flying, they are working.

That is a very welcome attitude ....however be mindful of the guys that are on a "practice approach" and think just because "I'm IFR, I dont have to play by the rules"..even though there approach should break them off in class G airspace (many times in NE) where they should play by the rules. Many of them think they are so cool that they wont even call CTAF... All the reason to check your base-to final.


Pet Peave--IFR guys not making good and meaningful CTAF calls

 

[bobmrg]

I can count the number of times that I broke off an approach to enter on the 45, or saw any other IFR flight do so, on the fingers of one hand...with a few fingers left over.

Bob Gardner

 

[roncachamp]

IFR traffic is supposedly given "first come first serve" per the FAA.

Where did you get that idea?

Ya..right...even in a turboprop I ALWAYS got the shaft at a class b

How so?

 

[roncachamp]

That is a very welcome attitude ....however be mindful of the guys that are on a "practice approach" and think just because "I'm IFR, I dont have to play by the rules"..even though there approach should break them off in class G airspace (many times in NE) where they should play by the rules. Many of them think they are so cool that they wont even call CTAF... All the reason to check your base-to final.

What rules are they not playing by?

Pet Peave--IFR guys not making good and meaningful CTAF calls

Do you mean like the VFR guys make? "Over the hospital for three five", "coming up on Wal-Mart landing one seven", etc., etc., etc.?

 

[Tommy3]

Except for this idiot, I appreciate everyone's advice! It was my first post because it was something that I was always curious about and I thought this might be a good forum to learn something from my fellow pilots. And I did! From the little bit of confusion in the thread, it sounds like other pilots learned something too. That's good. I understand now that I made a mistake and I won't do it again.

And yeah, sorry, I wasn't on the message board sooner to chat with you over the Internetz, I was probably on deployment in Iraq at the time, if that's okay with you, Holmes. . . .

The fact this is your first post is interesting.

Just entending your downwind would have seemed to be the safe and prudent thing to do. What would have happened Just added another two minutes to your flight.

... By calling him " homeboy" iced the cake for me in determining your attitude....

Next time give way to traffic on final....

 

[taters]

I can count the number of times that I broke off an approach to enter on the 45, or saw any other IFR flight do so, on the fingers of one hand...with a few fingers left over.

Bob Gardner

That is nice....I cannot count how many times I have watched the pattern get "compromised" by no-talk or weak talk IFR traffic. In-fact it happened yesterday by a foreigner coming into MLE (Omaha Millard )...he made one call and said he was East when in fact he was West..right on our damn way.

 

[roncachamp]

That is nice....I cannot count how many times I have watched the pattern get "compromised" by no-talk or weak talk IFR traffic. In-fact it happened yesterday by a foreigner coming into MLE (Omaha Millard )...he made one call and said he was East when in fact he was West..right on our damn way.

Perhaps you should rely a little less on your ears and a bit more on your eyes.

 

[poadeleted20]

IFR traffic is supposedly given "first come first serve" per the FAA. Ya..right...even in a turboprop I ALWAYS got the shaft at a class b

There is no priority given IFR traffic versus VFR traffic in terms of sequencing, but the guidance to controllers does tell them it's "first come, first served" among IFR traffic. IOW, if a 172 is going to reach the IAF first, the controller doesn't break off the 172 to hold and allow a 757 behind the 172 to fly the approach first.

 

[taters]

Perhaps you shoul rely a little less on your ears and a bit more on your eyes.

My eyes figured that out... look with your ears..confirm with your eyes

I experienced this problem on the west coast far more than anywhere else..but if you fly into congested airports enough..this happens far more than you probably realize.

 

[taters]

There is no priority given IFR traffic versus VFR traffic in terms of sequencing, but the guidance to controllers does tell them it's "first come, first served" among IFR traffic. IOW, if a 172 is going to reach the IAF first, the controller doesn't break off the 172 to hold and allow a 757 behind the 172 to fly the approach first.

Yes exactly...so why does a 737 on a 25 mile final into PDX get "priority" over a BE99 10 miles out?

 

[roncachamp]

My eyes figured that out... look with your ears..confirm with your eyes

I experienced this problem on the west coast far more than anywhere else..but if you fly into congested airports enough..this happens far more than you probably realize.

That pilots in the pattern feel they have priority over straight in arrivals? I think that happens often. Am I wrong? Does it happen more than that?

 

[taters]

That pilots in the pattern feel they have priority over straight in arrivals? I think that happens often. Am I wrong? Does it happen more than that?

Ya...go to a busy non-controlled airport on a IAP..see how "safe" you feel going straight in with no radio calls.

 

[poadeleted20]

That pilots in the pattern feel they have priority over straight in arrivals? I think that happens often. Am I wrong? Does it happen more than that?

You think right. Need proof? Just ask the question at a pilot meeting with a show of hands for each answer before you explain the rule.