landing flaps below 200 AGL?

Nope. Tires and brakes are MINOR, and there is little difference in 1-3 MPH at touchdown.
More like 5-8 mph for the most common light singles. Run the V^2 numbers, and you'll find the increase in KE to be absorbed is on the order of 30%. That's a lot more then "minor."

What IS expensive is the replacement of flap tracks and rollers, which take a beating with full flaps, especially at speed. Most Cessnas have an AD on their flap tracks, since they are often overstressed.
Well, I'm not an A&P, and I don't subscribe to the AD services, so I can't provide evidence, but I've flown a lot of light single-engine Cessnas over the years, and don't recall seeing such an AD listed in their paperwork. Perhaps you can list the light single Cessnas which have such an AD. Or is this one of those OWT's like "slips are prohibited in Cessnas with flaps extended?"
 
My impression was we were talking about going from 1/2 flaps to full which would generally be 1-3 mph. You get most of your lift in the first half, after that it's mostly adding drag.
Right -- and once you start the flare, that drag is what you want.
 
Ok, in my example, I was referring to going from zero flap and gear down to full around 200'
That is not something I recommend. As stated above, I recommend getting the first notch of flap out early in the approach, and then going to normal landing flaps (which for me, in most light singles, is full flaps) when I commit to land around 200-400 AGL. By getting the first notch out early, the majority of the trim change is out of the way, and the change at "commit to land" is the same change you get every VFR day when you go to landing flaps after turning final. Then, the feel and view from half a mile out is just the same as it is every VFR day, and then you're using the Law of Exercise to your advantage, not fighting it.
 
Right -- and once you start the flare, that drag is what you want.
I suppose you do. I was looking at it from the perspective of being able to hold the same speed during short final but when you get into ground effect having the barn doors would help.

I'm going to let other folks with more experience debate this, I'm out of my league. The conversation peaked my interest because I'd just read his article the other day and it seemed appropriate.
 
Nope. Tires and brakes are MINOR, and there is little difference in 1-3 MPH at touchdown.

What IS expensive is the replacement of flap tracks and rollers, which take a beating with full flaps, especially at speed. Most Cessnas have an AD on their flap tracks, since they are often overstressed.

Like I say, flaps are greatly overrated on most light aircraft.

1-3?!? What are you flying? My 310 is 63 dirty vs 77 clean, that's a lot of energy.
 
That is not something I recommend. As stated above, I recommend getting the first notch of flap out early in the approach, and then going to normal landing flaps (which for me, in most light singles, is full flaps) when I commit to land around 200-400 AGL. By getting the first notch out early, the majority of the trim change is out of the way, and the change at "commit to land" is the same change you get every VFR day when you go to landing flaps after turning final. Then, the feel and view from half a mile out is just the same as it is every VFR day, and then you're using the Law of Exercise to your advantage, not fighting it.

I wouldn't say I 'recommend' it - that is just a tool in my belt that I will tend to use when going into a major Class B airport like PHX - if you are comfortable in the airplane, it really helps ATC and the airlines if you can fly a fast approach, land short and clear the runway quickly.

In most planes my normal practice is 1/4 flaps and gear down shortly before FAF and then full around 200'.
 
At the approach speeds they like to use, they're right.
A Bonanza can be slowed quickly with full flaps and gear hanging out.

-35 and 36 model are actually excellent short field birds. Unfortunately some pilots think they need 10.000' to land them.
 
In most planes my normal practice is 1/4 flaps and gear down shortly before FAF and then full around 200'.
Do I read it correctly - 1/4. It means most of the flaps (3/4) you will be dumping at 200 - all flaps dumped so quickly so low?. Wow. Anyway I am amazed at the breath of responses I got.
 
Do I read it correctly - 1/4. It means most of the flaps (3/4) you will be dumping at 200 - all flaps dumped so quickly so low?. Wow. Anyway I am amazed at the breath of responses I got.

200' is not low. I have spent well over 1000 hrs never getting above half that. The plane only knows of 2 operational differences in altitude, on the ground and not on the ground. The plane flies and reacts the same to control inputs at any altitude once the wheels leave the ground. At 200' if you are descending 400 fpm, that's a full 30 seconds before you reach your TD flare. Count to 30.... That's a damned long time, well more than sufficient to retrim and restabilize which usually takes 5-7 seconds from the time you move the flap switch.
 
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Using full flaps on a long runway is a waste of money and wear and tear on the airplane. And if there is any crosswind it is contrary to most POHs.

Flaps are GREATLY over rated on most GA aircraft

Wow. That's a new one. (or two.)

I can tell you that in the years I was paying the bills, we replaced MANY sets of tires and brakes, and one measly flap roller. I would bet Ron is right that there is less overall wear and tear when landing slower.

Also, I'm a "full-flaps-all-the-time" guy. I've landed the 182 with a direct crosswind gusting over 30 knots, and yes I used full flaps.

I also am based at an airport where the shortest runway is 5800' long - Yup, full flaps. But, I usually don't use the brakes at all unless I'm doing short field landings.

As to the original issue - In the 182, I fly the ILS with no flaps. I have on occasion landed out of an ILS with less than full flaps, but generally I still add the flaps prior to landing. There's still plenty of time to get them in after breaking out, especially if the visibility below the clouds is good. Also, more often than not I'm flying a fast approach so that the jet behind me can get in quicker; full flaps allows me to get in closer before I have to slow down, because I can slow down faster.

In the DA40, I'll likely change my practice to flying the ILS with approach flaps. With no flaps, the darn thing is just too slippery! With no flaps, it'll maintain speed on the glideslope with very little power.

As usual in aviation, the answer is "It depends."
 
unlike in an Arrow, 120 knots isn't fast for the Bo as far as flap and gear speeds are concerned.

Easy there, Beech boy - The lowest gear speed for any flavor of Arrow is 129 KIAS. Considering they only cruise at about 135 KTAS, you can probably throw the gear out any time you want except for in a high-power descent.

My favorite gear speed is on the DA42. Vle = Vne = 194 KIAS. :D
 
200' is not low. I have spent well over 1000 hrs never getting above half that. The plane only knows of 2 operational differences in altitude, on the ground and not on the ground. The plane flies and reacts the same to control inputs at any altitude once the wheels leave the ground. At 200' if you are descending 400 fpm, that's a full 30 seconds before you reach your TD flare. Count to 30.... That's a damned long time, well more than sufficient to retrim and restabilize which usually takes 5-7 seconds from the time you move the flap switch.
Well, maybe a third if you count ground effect separately. But I agree. I had this discussion with my CFII a year ago when I was starting instrument training. I was afraid that 200 AGL was too close to the ground to be making major configuration changes, and I told him so. He said we'll work on it. Then I was at PTK in the 172 and said, why not try it myself? I did and it was not a big deal. As long as you have lots of runway and you haven't accepted a LAHSO clearance, it is much easier than it sounds if you relax and just fly the airplane. You do have to be comfortable in the make and model you're flying, but if you are doing IR training or flying instruments that is probably a good idea anyway.
 
This is the way I was trained (did my instrument training in the cherokee 140) and I'm quite comfortable with my cherokee 140.

I think this is very common. Unless there is a really compelling reason to change, I think most of us just stick to whatever we were originally trained to do. If it worked during training and worked during the checkride, why change it? That being said, next time I am doing practice approaches in VFR conditions, I am going to try changing up how I use the flaps.

Ryan
 
And so there are no POHs that prohibit full flaps in crosswinds, such as asserted earlier.

In all the Cessna POH's I have flaps at landing range is 0 to max available 30 or 40.

I beleive the concern is/was in some Cessnas Full Flaps and slipping could blank out the rudder and they were placarded with some to that extent.

Slips and Crosswind landings are not the same.

I suppose crabbing into a strong crosswind, then kicking into the slip at touchdown and loosing your rudder authority would not be a nice turn of events.

Thus the crosswind landing technique I was taught was higher speed, allow for custs with even more speed, less flaps and kick out of the crab early to verify you have the rudder authority to hold centerline. If not try another runway or airport with better wind alignment.
 
Do I read it correctly - 1/4. It means most of the flaps (3/4) you will be dumping at 200 - all flaps dumped so quickly so low?
Next time you fly an ILS, start the timer at the MM and stop it on touchdown. It's a lot longer time than most folks think.
 
I beleive the concern is/was in some Cessnas Full Flaps and slipping could blank out the rudder and they were placarded with some to that extent.
Cessna 172's (and only 172's) have a note in the POH and placard near the flap swich/handle that says to "avoid" slips with flaps extended. The problem is not rudder blanking, but an oscillation which can develop. Personally, after 40 years of slippin 172's with flaps extended, I've never experienced it, but some folks have. If it happens, just center the rudder and it goes away.

Slips and Crosswind landings are not the same.
In nearly all light GA airplanes, a proper crosswind landing entails slipping the plane, at least right before touchdown. It's not a big slip (unless the crosswind component is huge), but it is a slip.

I suppose crabbing into a strong crosswind, then kicking into the slip at touchdown and loosing your rudder authority would not be a nice turn of events.
I suppose it would, but I know of no light plane which loses its rudder authority in a slip. Heck -- if it did, it couldn't slip!

Thus the crosswind landing technique I was taught was higher speed, allow for custs with even more speed, less flaps and kick out of the crab early to verify you have the rudder authority to hold centerline. If not try another runway or airport with better wind alignment.
There are those who teach higher approach speeds for crosswind landings, but I'm not one of them. While there are good reasons for increasing approach speed in gusty conditions (typically by half the gust factor*), the only reason I would increase speed for a crosswind would be if I lacked sufficient control authority to hold the necessary slip -- and in that case, the crosswind is probably so strong that you'd be unwise not to find another runway more aligned with the wind. My experience as an instructor is that when folks start adding 5 knots for this, and 3 knots for that, and 4 knots for something else, they end up coming in so bloody fast they overcontrol the plane in the flare and end up ballooning or porpoising or banging the nosewheel down first (not to mention landing 2000 feet down the runway) or jam it onto the runway going so fast they overcontrol the rudder pedals and end up off the runway -- and that doesn't even begin to address the tire/brake wear issues.

*Gust factor is the difference between steady state wind and the gusting wind. E.g., wind 14G24, GF = (24 - 14)/2 = 5, so add 5 to your final approach speed.
 
Next time you fly an ILS, start the timer at the MM and stop it on touchdown. It's a lot longer time than most folks think.
'specially when you can barely see the approach lights and you gotta pee real bad.
 
I beleive the concern is/was in some Cessnas Full Flaps and slipping could blank out the rudder and they were placarded with some to that extent.

Slips and Crosswind landings are not the same.

Cessna 172's (and only 172's) have a note in the POH and placard near the flap swich/handle that says to "avoid" slips with flaps extended. The problem is not rudder blanking, but an oscillation which can develop. Personally, after 40 years of slippin 172's with flaps extended, I've never experienced it, but some folks have. If it happens, just center the rudder and it goes away.

Here’s what Bill Thompson, former Manager of Flight Test & Aerodynamics at Cessna, had to say about the issue of slipping with full flaps in the 172 (Cessna — Wings for The World, by William D. Thompson, Maverick Press, 1991, p. 41):
With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180, and C-172 we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner’s manuals under “Landings” reading “Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30 deg. due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle, and center of gravity loadings”. Since wing-low drift correction in crosswind landings is normally performed with a minimum flap setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the transition of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative “upwash increment” from the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although not stated in the owner’s manuals, we privately encouraged flight instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass on the information to their students. This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate, but it was thought that a pilot should be aware of its existence and know how to counteract it if it occurs close to the ground.
The “oscillation” mentioned in this thread is an unrelated phenomenon that Thompson described in newer models in full-flap slips: “a mild pitch ‘pumping’ motion resulting from flap outboard-end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of side-slip angle, power, and airspeed.”

So although the 172L’s larger dorsal apparently solved the pitch-down issue, they kept the cautionary note in the POH because of the latter phenomenon.

Unfortunately Cessna contributed to the “end of the world” fear of slips with flaps, by not explaining the phenomenon in the manuals; and in fact, many earlier C-172 manuals expressly said that slips with full flap were "prohibited." I rummaged through my collection of old Cessna owners manuals:

1958 C-172: “prohibited”
1959 C-175: “prohibited”
1966 C-172F: “prohibited”
1972 C-172L (first year of the big dorsal): “should be avoided”

Ron has correctly pointed out that these old owners manuals aren't the TCDS and don't carry the force of law, but that’s what a lot of us old-timers read back then and remember.
 
I would also point out that the prohibitions Jeff mentioned were deleted from the TCDS, and so no longer apply to those early models even if there are still old copies of the owner's manuals including the obsolete prohibition kicking around. Thus, it is today completely legal to slip any model of Cessna 172 with full flaps selected (unless some weird after-market modification from a third party has created such a limitation, and I've not heard of such).
 
Well, maybe a third if you count ground effect separately.

What changes when in ground effect? Rudder, ailerons and elevator still do the same thing. The rates may change a bit but the way hand-eye biofeedback works in a human it doesn't really matter because we automatically adjust our control inputs until we achieve the results we desire.

Actually, GE makes things easier as you can keep a couple of inches of float going such as in an overpowering gust of crosswind by adding just a touch of throttle (and this is where full flaps are advantageous since it won't be over sensitive to too much throttle) and keeping it off the ground till the nose settles back in then cutting the power to land. One thing flying Ag teaches you is to not be afraid to manipulate the plane next to the ground.
 
Strong crosswinds are rarely ever steady - they are usually always gusty. For every smooth steady crosswind landing that I have made, I have made a thousand gusty crosswind landings. So I usually always add 5 or 10 kts for the usual 10 to 20k gust factor. When I turn final and set up a crab or slip (crab for personel or pax flying, slip when training a new pilot), I note also how gusty it is and set flaps and speed as appropriate for the conditions.

I never rely on the old "go somewhere else to find a runway more closely aligned with the wind" theory. Where does that come from? I don't fly around thinking, "If I get low on gas, I'll just stop somewhere and refuel."

I know that the day may come when the x/wind is stronger than I ever would plan on intentionally flying in, and another day will come when I cannot do a go-around, such as no gas, bad wx, etc, so I had better be at least able to get it on the ground in very strong gusty x/winds.

Less flaps in slow flight off the runway and landing on one upwind wheel is a necessary skill except for those who are extremely cautious about flying in any wind or when there is the remote possibility of a tstm.

We learn to practice a skill in a given constant condition, because it is the repetition and exercise that builds the initial proficiency, and the familiarity can create a safer environment -

-but it can also breed a false sense of safety and make you totally unprepared for the 'unusual'.

I like to set my flaps early on the approach, but different situations require different solutions.

A sudden updraft coming through 300' (in a light single) just as you were getting glimpses of the runway, and suddenly it disappears, and the g/s needle bottoms out and you know if you point the nose down and pull full flaps you will come back out on g/s and on speed with full flaps for landing, and there is usually not much gusty x/wind when the ceiling/vis is so low as to cause this situation.

Another good situation for this is a non-precision where you are perpendicular to a short runway crossing at 400AGL at mid-field downwind and have to make a 270 turn from xwind to downwind to base to final and have to suddenly put down full flaps at a low final position.

This stuff happens, and we should all be well practiced at performing in these instances, just as we are trained and prompted in making engine failure forced landings and such other emergency procedures.

To sum it up: be proficient at making various kinds of landings with various flaps settings and putting the flaps in at any point where you see that you would like to.

The power-off 180 is a good way to practice this. You should plan the approach with no flaps, using your judgment on when to final and using a slip technique to burn off excess altitude to fly it to your spot with no flaps, the at some specific point right before or during the flare, you put down flaps, full-at-once, or incrementally, so as to arrive at the spot stalling with full flaps.

It just takes practice. Everyone who is adamant about 'one-way' is not learning to use their tool in the most effective way in each individual case.
 
Strong crosswinds are rarely ever steady - they are usually always gusty.
Perhaps you can explain the meteorological phenomenon which makes crosswinds gustier than winds aligned with the runway.

For every smooth steady crosswind landing that I have made, I have made a thousand gusty crosswind landings. So I usually always add 5 or 10 kts for the usual 10 to 20k gust factor. When I turn final and set up a crab or slip (crab for personel or pax flying, slip when training a new pilot), I note also how gusty it is and set flaps and speed as appropriate for the conditions.
Me, too, but I make the decision to increase approach speed based solely on the gust factor, not the alignment of the runway with the wind.

I never rely on the old "go somewhere else to find a runway more closely aligned with the wind" theory. Where does that come from?
Experience and good judgement.

I don't fly around thinking, "If I get low on gas, I'll just stop somewhere and refuel."
I sure do. And I suspect that many (or most, or even nearly all) fuel exhaustion accidents would have been prevented by such thinking.

I know that the day may come when the x/wind is stronger than I ever would plan on intentionally flying in, and another day will come when I cannot do a go-around, such as no gas, bad wx, etc, so I had better be at least able to get it on the ground in very strong gusty x/winds.
Nothing wrong with expanding your envelope as long as you have an "out" in case the envelope proves to be inelastic.
 
I sure do. And I suspect that many (or most, or even nearly all) fuel exhaustion accidents would have been prevented by such thinking.
I mean that I don't take off without planning on fuel consumption and specific fuel stops. If there were plenty of refueling stops every 10 or 15 miles, like driving, I might have the mindset that I could stop for fuel whenever it is convenient, which is the type of midset it must take to believe that you can just go somewhere else when the x/wind is too much.

Of course, IF that option is available it may be the wisest move, but I am talking about the case where that is not an option. Like engine failure.

Another MAJOR point that I forgot to bring out in being ultra-prepared for the emergency situations is the peace-of-mind.

Bean counters will weigh the possibilities of the emergency and the cost/effort in being prepared for the possible emergency, and decide based on that ratio.

But, when you are in total control of the machine you are flying, ie., able to fly it to the ground in a landing attitude regardless of the environment, you have a peace-of-mind that allows you to perform at peak. You lose that subtle uneasiness that creeps up when the wind gets up or the wx goes down.

This mental feeling of a lack of control is not an official statistic that I know of in accident investigations, but I know it is a factor that leads to the actual loss of control.
 
I mean that I don't take off without planning on fuel consumption and specific fuel stops.
Neither do I, but I still keep thinking throughout the flight about actual consumption versus progress so I know if I'm staying on plan, and where I'd go if I'm not.
 
Thus the crosswind landing technique I was taught was higher speed, allow for custs with even more speed, less flaps and kick out of the crab early to verify you have the rudder authority to hold centerline. If not try another runway or airport with better wind alignment.

Higher speed for the gust factor (increase speed by 1/2 the gust factor) makes sense... But higher speed for a crosswind? That makes no sense at all.

If you are going faster for a crosswind, you simply increase the time you have to fight the crosswind in the flare, and you still have to slow down through your normal approach speed, so if you don't have enough rudder authority at your normal approach speed, you won't have enough to take it all the way to touchdown even if you do approach at a higher speed.

When there's a high, gusty crosswind I use normal approach speed (plus half the gust factor) and full flaps so that when I get down into the flare, the plane stops flying quickly and won't be attempting to fly again. Get it down, and plant it on the ground, and don't forget to fly it all the way to the chocks.

BTW, the 1/2 the gust factor should actually be 1/2 the *headwind component* gust factor. We're doing this because we want to fly a normal approach speed for the *average* wind, and we should expect our airspeed to vary by ±1/2 the headwind component gust factor. If you have a direct gusting crosswind, the headwind component is going to be low to zero and the extra speed is not going to do you any good.
 
Does slipping flight change the stall speed of the aircraft?
I would say yes but by a negligible amount - anytime your wings are not exactly level (like in slipping) your stall speed goes up.
 
Neither do I, but I still keep thinking throughout the flight about actual consumption versus progress so I know if I'm staying on plan, and where I'd go if I'm not.
I'm startin' to wonder about you. Are you saying that you can always plan to go to another airport if the x/wind exceeds your comfort level?
 
I'm startin' to wonder about you. Are you saying that you can always plan to go to another airport if the x/wind exceeds your comfort level?


It depends on where and what you're flying.

Along the east coast, where there are lots of airports, and the Eastern Shore, where there are lots of nice, flat fields, there are plenty of options for fuel, runways, and prudent off-airport landings.

That's not true everywhere.

Anyway, finding a runway that will accommodate your max crosswind level shouldn't be too hard.
 
Anyway, finding a runway that will accommodate your max crosswind level shouldn't be too hard.
This brings some memories from my own VFR flying experience. Probably about two decades ago I was planning a trip in an Archer from the San Francisco Bay Area to Bishop, Ca. This airport is tough to get into due to very high terrain all around it. When I called the airport just before departure the manager told me they had very strong X-winds (about 30 kts) and no prognosis for things getting better. There was but a single runway yet the airport sits in a notoriously high-wind area. I had no choice but to cancel my trip, there were no other suitable airports in the general area that would work as reasonable alternatives for my plans. But just recently I discovered they added two more runways in different directions....
 
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Does slipping flight change the stall speed of the aircraft?

I would say yes but by a negligible amount - anytime your wings are not exactly level (like in slipping) your stall speed goes up.

... and does slipping flight affect the accuracy of the airspeed indicator ... ?

:wink2: :ihih:
 
Are you saying that you can always plan to go to another airport if the x/wind exceeds your comfort level?
I hope we all do that -- always being prepared to go to Plan B is Plan A ain't working. As I said, the NTSB accident report database is full of pilots who hung onto Plan A long after they should have given up on it and done something else.
 
I hope we all do that -- always being prepared to go to Plan B is Plan A ain't working. As I said, the NTSB accident report database is full of pilots who hung onto Plan A long after they should have given up on it and done something else.

Amen! We should all be flying with 2 plan A's. We should all feel that they are both equally valid options to continue or end our flight safely. Then you can have plan B.

I had to divert after running into a light rain right in front of Pike's peak (Flgiht visibility was OK, but the windshield was hard to see through). My options quickly dwindled to 1: turn around and head to Pueblo KPUB. I hated the feeling of only having 1 option left. At that point I had spent all of the safety margin that I had planned into the flight. Never again!
 
Are you saying that you can always plan to go to another airport if the x/wind exceeds your comfort level?
No, no, I didn't say "Do you always plan...", I said "Can you always plan...", meaning, to put it another way, "You cannot always expect your plans to work out".

Your plans for an alternate may not work out. I know you are emphasizing having a plan, and I endorse that, but I also plan on the plan not working and I have a worse case scenario; I have to get it down. I've been there. Doesn't matter, for this discussion, how I got there, but the fact remains that we wind up in precarious positions, no matter how much planning goes on.
 
I hope we all do that -- always being prepared to go to Plan B is Plan A ain't working. As I said, the NTSB accident report database is full of pilots who hung onto Plan A long after they should have given up on it and done something else.
Like Jack Rousch, they "commit to the accident".
 
Your plans for an alternate may not work out. I know you are emphasizing having a plan, and I endorse that, but I also plan on the plan not working and I have a worse case scenario; I have to get it down. I've been there. Doesn't matter, for this discussion, how I got there, but the fact remains that we wind up in precarious positions, no matter how much planning goes on.

That's a very important distinction.

How many pilots have plowed on to fuel exhaustion or VMC into IMC while flying over thousands of acres of field-expedient runways?
 
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