Landing Cordination

gkaiser

Pre-takeoff checklist
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gkaiser
I've got 9 landings under my belt so far..and I'm just having a horrible time maintaining the center line..my instructor said I'm letting the plane fly me instead of me flying the plane and I need to be more authoritive on my inputs. My last landing I used the rudder more and that helped a lot..I realized how important all my slow flight training comes into play on the landing portion...So, any tips for maintaining the center line? More rudder? Just seems like I'm getting bounced all over the place..and the wind was only at like 5 kt crosswind!

:mad2:
 
A drill that I've found useful is flying over the runway at 8-10 knots above stall and 5-10 feet over the runway. The longer you do it, the better your feet get wired to your brain.
 
I've got 9 landings under my belt so far..and I'm just having a horrible time maintaining the center line..my instructor said I'm letting the plane fly me instead of me flying the plane and I need to be more authoritive on my inputs. My last landing I used the rudder more and that helped a lot..I realized how important all my slow flight training comes into play on the landing portion...So, any tips for maintaining the center line? More rudder? Just seems like I'm getting bounced all over the place..and the wind was only at like 5 kt crosswind!

:mad2:

Could be PIO. (Pilot induced oscillation) Your control inputs are fighting against each other. I know this sounds silly now, as when close to the ground it seems you need to be quick, but what you need to be is slower and smoother. The tip about tracking the centerline at low speed without touching down seems like a good one. I never did it but it makes sense to me.
 
Try this drill - make a normal approach, flare but add some power and slow fly the plane down the runway 1-2 feet up in the air on the backside of the power curve. Do this for the whole length of the runway a couple times.

If you have only made nine landings you have nothing to worry about!

IMO learning to land the plane should be a mix of a bunch of landing practice interspersed with air work and drills like the one I mentioned. Make a couple tries at landing next time and then ask your instructor if you can slow fly the plane down the runway once or twice
 
The mental game that works for me that leads to those "more authoritative" inputs is, "Put the nose where you want it pointed with the rudder and use whatever inputs necessary to KEEP it there. Don't LET it move."

Aileron for left-right drift, rudder to point straight down the runway. Drift to put the center line between your legs. (Later you might offset that a bit to the right but at first it's a good stating point.)

At only 9 landings you're just barely getting started on figuring out "how much" of each to use. Your instructor will probably at some point have you do a low-approach without landing and "fly down the runway". You'll find the relative motion will be easier to see when you're down close to the ground.

Meanwhile, the words of my first instructor are still in my head... "Whatever it takes."

Eventually you'll get to where it's comfortable in light winds, and then you'll get a day when you literally "run out of rudder" in a crosswind. You can push the pedal all the way to the floor and the nose will still swing the other direction. ;)
 
I've got 9 landings under my belt so far..and I'm just having a horrible time maintaining the center line..my instructor said I'm letting the plane fly me instead of me flying the plane and I need to be more authoritive on my inputs. My last landing I used the rudder more and that helped a lot..I realized how important all my slow flight training comes into play on the landing portion...So, any tips for maintaining the center line? More rudder? Just seems like I'm getting bounced all over the place..and the wind was only at like 5 kt crosswind!

:mad2:

Do you think you're landing in a bit of a crab?

If so, on final transition to a slip such that rudder has you straight down the runway and aileron banks into the wind to correct for drift. Do it early. By early I mean early enough to have time to figure out how to get the nose straight, not drift, and get lined up on center line. Then keep it together by holding the plane straight with rudder and not drifting with aileron corrections. Do this all the way through the flare.

If there is an x-wind you'll hear 3 chirps as the upwind, downwind and nose touchdown and you'll roll straight out.
 
These guys will tell you all sorts of things, most of them correct. The one thing I can add is I went through the same thing. It is intensely frustrating, but don't worry. You'll work through it. You'll get there. Good luck.
 
Could be PIO. (Pilot induced oscillation) Your control inputs are fighting against each other. I know this sounds silly now, as when close to the ground it seems you need to be quick, but what you need to be is slower and smoother. The tip about tracking the centerline at low speed without touching down seems like a good one. I never did it but it makes sense to me.

I took his post to mean that he feels he is getting bounced around like kite in the wind and not literally bouncing off the runway.

If there is wind and there are hills or trees near your field, the wind will swirl off of the trees and it will be a little bumpy, gusty down near the surface. If you get blown off centerline or balloon because of a gust during the flare, add a little power and keep the plane flying (like you are slow flying it down the runway in the drill) while you get things straightened out, then pull the power out and set it down. Sounds easy right? it will be once you have a lot more than 9 landings!

Note you can only do that if you have plenty of runway remaining
 
We did the low pass thing for a lesson as well..and it was better then my landings but not by much...I was worried I was too low doing my low pass until I realized the worst thing that could happen would be we actually land! Maybe I'm just beating myself up too much considering I'm only at 9 landings. I'm flying 2-3 times a week, 2 hours a time..and we're averaging 5-6 landings an hour..at least (in my opinion) each landing is getting SLIGHTLY better...maybe i'm setting my expectations too high for myself considering my low time with landings..
 
maybe i'm setting my expectations too high for myself considering my low time with landings..

If you have actually kept it on the runway and the gear is still attached to the plane i'd say you're doin fine
 
I took his post to mean that he feels he is getting bounced around like kite in the wind and not literally bouncing off the runway.

Nope, I'm not literally bouncing..none of my landings have resulted in bouncing/porpising/etc..Once we've been down we've stayed down..and only 1 was a harder then I would of liked landing...

Both the airports we've been practicing at has hills/trees all around it..the main airport we've been practicing at (KBUU) thankfully has a nice long wide runway (4,300 x 75)..but our homefield (5K6) is 2,849 x 38..
 
If you have actually kept it on the runway and the gear is still attached to the plane i'd say you're doin fine


Hah, yep..kept it on the runway every time..gear still attached..and only once was a hard smack...otherwise short of doing s-turns over the runway I made it down...
 
The mental game that works for me that leads to those "more authoritative" inputs is, "Put the nose where you want it pointed with the rudder and use whatever inputs necessary to KEEP it there. Don't LET it move."

Aileron for left-right drift, rudder to point straight down the runway. Drift to put the center line between your legs. (Later you might offset that a bit to the right but at first it's a good stating point.)

Thanks DenverPilot! Your explanation of using the aileron for left/right left and primarily the rudder to keep it straight is kind of what I'm thinking I need to do. I'm so use to driving a car that I think I'm subconsciously just using the yoke and forgetting about the rudder or not using the rudder enough...
 
Try this drill - make a normal approach, flare but add some power and slow fly the plane down the runway 1-2 feet up in the air on the backside of the power curve. Do this for the whole length of the runway a couple times.

This. I waited until right before my checkride to do this exercise. Wish I'd done it sooner.

These guys will tell you all sorts of things, most of them correct. The one thing I can add is I went through the same thing. It is intensely frustrating, but don't worry. You'll work through it. You'll get there. Good luck.

Also this.
 
At nine landings don't sweat it too much. Some days the only time I'm on the centerline is when I'm crossing it!

The slow flight down the runway suggested by others can be a good exercise. While the "aim point" is important, remember that you're headed towards the far end of the runway and keep looking there. Learn to recognize the "skewed" view of the runway when you're off the centerline after turning from the base leg. That bit of recognition can help a lot.
 
One practice technique (and this isn't my idea, I got it from the Kings, can't remember if it is John or Martha) is to fly down to some reasonably long runway with a good centerline and fly 5-10' above the runway holding your self centered on the runway and the body of the aircraft aligned with the centerlien. A little crosswind would help build the skill. THIS is the attitude you want to be in when the wheels touch. Whether you fly it in this way all the way down final (slipping approach) or fly in a crab and kick it out, THIS IS THE WAY YOU WANT TO TOUCH DOWN. Wheels parallel with the direction of travel and travelling down the centerline.
 
If your'e thinking about the specifics of how to make that landing, you're thinking too much.

9 landings is a few trips around the pattern. I still learn about landings every time I land. I made six flights yesterday, and learned something different each time. I've made thousands of landings. Of those many thousands, the only one that counts is the next one.

Not too long ago I operated in and out of a smallish airport in a narrow valley. It had a stiff crosswind, but also a lot of dead spots, shears, and rotors due to hills, trees, and buildings around the airport. It was one-way in, one-way out. My landings were entertaining to me, and apparently entertaining to locals who came out of their hangars to watch. Several of us were making those landings, and no one else was doing any better. After eight or so of those, I went to another airport, where the wind was straight down the runway. Some of my landings were glassy smooth. Others were decidedly not.

Maintaining the centerline of the runway is very secondary to keeping the aircraft going straight when you land. That is, aligning the long axis of the airplane with the direction of travel.

You can approach to land by keeping the airplane crabbed into the wind until just before touchdown, then kicking it out with the rudders and using the aileron to keep the wings level. Some call this the crab and kick-out method. You can also fly the approach to landing with one wing low, which is uncomfortable and silly-looking, but works. You can't get away with that on all aircraft, either. Some aircraft, like the Ercoupe and the 747 and Cesssna 195 can be flown onto the runway in a crab and landed that way, each for different reasons.

Each aircraft you fly will be a little different.

For now, if you do end up getting off center on the runway as you're approaching, try to do it upwind of the centerline; you can always drift back to it. When you're landing, especially as you begin to arrest your descent in the "round-out" and flare, don't be overly concerned about where on the runway you are in relation to the centerline so much as how you're lined up with your direction of travel. If your landing direction is parallel to the centerline, then keep the long axis of the airplane pointed that way; you don't have to be on the centerline to do that.

Pretend you're sitting on a bicycle, and ride that bicycle along the centerline of the runway. Your feet are on the rudder pedals, just like the pedals on a bike. If you ride a bicycle on the centerline, your feet go either side of the centerline. Same for the airplane. Just straddle the centerline.

A good exercise with a students is having them fly the length of the runway at a few feet above the runway. A few passes like that helps get used to maintaining altitude, but it's not that which is important here. Get used to flying down the runway, and then practice in calm winds. Keep the wings level and slew the nose right, while holding the centerline. Now swing the nose left. Keep the wings level. A few tries of this, then go fly an approach to a landing again in a crosswind, and see if it isn't a little more intuitive.

I learned about keeping my line as a kid, when spraying (crop dusting). We did a lot of it in formation, where the boss could keep an eye on me, and save on flags (markers we kicked out of the airplane to help us stay oriented in the field). Flying close to the ground and in formation didn't leave much room for banking around to change direction. While flying down the field, keeping wings level was a necessity, but changes in the crab angle were also necessary to deal with winds, or to make slight course corrections in the field. This meant holding the wings level with ailerons, and using the rudders. This is the same exercise you can try over the runway, without having to worry about tractors, standpipes, circle irrigation, or powerlines.

It won't take very much of that practice before you begin to feel right at home. For now, you need to get out and do landings. Lots of them. Try them high, low, long, short, crosswind, still, on the numbers, and so on. Only by doing them, experimenting with them, observing, learning, doing, will you begin to develop the feel you need to land an airplane.

If twenty or thirty years or more from now you still feel like your landings need work and are a learning experience with every one, then welcome to the club. That never changes.
 
And when I recall landing practice it wasn't very much practice before it started clicking, in hindsight. Perhaps 10 lessons for the click, and it is a slow and agonizing frustration to get your hands and feet to correct what your eyes are saying. Part of it comes with recognizing the drift or the turn quicker and reacting quicker, but confidently, and giving the moment or two for your corrections to start changing the sight picture. Landing at 5k6 with winds from the south will give you more swirls as it comes over the hangars, so keep flying the plane all the way. Once the plane is stopped off the runway, you can take a break from flying ;)
 
> horrible time maintaining the center line ...

The center line ain't reserved for the pro pilots. You're allowed to use it too.
DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY with the controls to keep the airplane in the
center of the runway.

I happen to agree with those that suggest you find a loooong runway and fly
the length of it, in slow flight, at 1-3 feet. Really.
 
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You have already gotten all the info you need to do it.
It really does just take PRACTICE.
You will get it.
A very experienced pilot/CFII with a TON of teaching time told me. Put YOUR butt over the centerline, the cockpit you are in isn't THAT wide and you will be on the center line. Don't try and "judge" where you are, just put yourself over it.

Worked for me.
 
At 9 landings, I wouldn't be too worried about it either.

But if you have doubts about what it is "supposed" to look like, ask your CFI to demonstrate.

Frankly, if your CFI isn't helping diagnose your problems, you need at least a consultation with another CFI. That's Reason #2 why they are there (Reason #1 is to keep you and your aircraft in one piece).

I suspect the problem is overcorrection. But I can't possibly know that. Your CFI can, and should be addressing it.
 
Well over half of the people here have suggested this, but just to bring two things together, I highly, highly suggest doing more of those low passes while doing whatever it takes to stay on the centerline. This worked wonders for me.
 
-get crabbed so the center-line is looking right between your eyes throughout the approach* let go of how odd looking this is* ..maintain this until you begin to round--of course your perfectly on the glide slope

- Step on the center-line...maintain wings level with roll..use your peripheral vision as needed in the flare

-roll into the wind on roll out and increase as airspeed bleeds off..keep steering with those feet ..all the way to the ramp.
 
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Just figured I'd post a follow up...went up today, calm winds and really did ALOT better maintaining the centerline..it was just issues of too high/too low/too speed but that 'feel' is coming with time too...did 6 landings today with the last one being the best....Thanks to EVERYBODY for the words of encouragement and everybody's tips/hints/suggestions. I'm upto 15 landings so far..but definitely feeling more confident and getting the feel down! thanks again! You PoA's rock!
 
Sorry I'm late to the thread. I'm surprised that no one has said anything about doing dutch rolls. Worked for me!
 
I've got 9 landings under my belt so far..and I'm just having a horrible time maintaining the center line..my instructor said I'm letting the plane fly me instead of me flying the plane and I need to be more authoritive on my inputs. My last landing I used the rudder more and that helped a lot..I realized how important all my slow flight training comes into play on the landing portion...So, any tips for maintaining the center line? More rudder? Just seems like I'm getting bounced all over the place..and the wind was only at like 5 kt crosswind!

:mad2:

Get that wing down, stand into that rudder, Feed it some throttle, don't be afraid of it. Yeah, you're bouncing around, get used to it, it never stops.
 
It never fails, and works even better when performed on the longest runway you can find. Student gets a lot more "real-time" practice with the opportunity to sort things out and absorb instructions/corrections from the CFI.

Well over half of the people here have suggested this, but just to bring two things together, I highly, highly suggest doing more of those low passes while doing whatever it takes to stay on the centerline. This worked wonders for me.
 
I just learned the other day that I'd been doing it wrong(tm) with dutch rolls; now I want to go up and do some airwork and practice them a lot more.
 
dont go to idle, keep slight power in
 
dont go to idle, keep slight power in

What's that got to do with it? Energy management.

No need for power at all if you're high enough to glide to the runway.

The crutch of leaving power in for more airflow over the tail surfaces is exactly that. A crutch. It's popular with folks who think "stabilized" means drag it in from three miles out with power.

Learn what the sight picture looks like for a safe landing in all flap configurations without power.

You're likely to need it someday.
 
What's that got to do with it? Energy management.

No need for power at all if you're high enough to glide to the runway.

The crutch of leaving power in for more airflow over the tail surfaces is exactly that. A crutch. It's popular with folks who think "stabilized" means drag it in from three miles out with power.

Learn what the sight picture looks like for a safe landing in all flap configurations without power.

You're likely to need it someday.

Absolutely right
 
What Tin Legs said.
Plus; A Retired Marine friend of mine replied to me (after I inquired as to why he never was in the pattern doing the crash-and-dash) that after flying everything from the F8F to the A4 Skyhawk and doing two tours off a boat he had come to realize that all the practice in the world won't help the next landing be any better than the last...there're all a bit different!

You own and drive a car. You have learned what the gas and brake pedals do as well as what the steering wheel does. You drive by using these controls in harmony with each other to effect turns, straight "flight" and other maneuvers. And you don't even have to think about it.

Your airplane is no different; once you understand WHAT each control does and quit worrying about where to "set" the controls for a given situation you can use ALL the controls in a fluid manner just like when you're in your car.

Relax. Make that plane do what you intend it to do. Use all the controls all the time to effect what you see in your mind as your desired direction.

One last point;
If anyone is watching your landings they will suck. The amount of suckage is dependant on the number of people observing your arrival.
However; should you manage to execute a textbook pattern to a perfect squeeker you will be greeted by not one single SOB anywhere on the airport having seen it...

Don't ask me why...it just is.


Chris
 
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