Lance's Baron

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
6,434
Location
Dallas, Texas
Display Name
Dave Siciliano
Home Airfield
Addison, ADS
Uh hum! How come I'm not hearing anything 'bout the new engine upgrade of your Baron, LANCE? Tapping foot while speaking.
The new engines are done and on the plane, aren't they?
We wanna know how the Baron performs now

Looking forward to hearing.

Dave
 
Probably because he's working the night shift too, trying to pay for all that fancy stuff.

Dave Siciliano said:
Uh hum! How come I'm not hearing anything 'bout the new engine upgrade of your Baron, LANCE? Tapping foot while speaking.
The new engines are done and on the plane, aren't they?
We wanna know how the Baron performs now

Looking forward to hearing.

Dave
Click to expand...
 
Chatted with him last night; the engines took longer to get done than anticipated. He should be home this weekend. Maybe we'll hear about how the Baron performs with all the new H.P.

Best,

Dave
 
I'll let Lance give the blow by blow report! I was just observing :D
Yea, imagine an engine upgrade being done on time--what are the odds?

I think a lot of these folks just agree with whatever you tell them as to timing; then, just do what ever they were going to anyway.

I can hear it now; two weeks, did we say two weeks. Who told you that? Oh, he's---pick your ending

1. Not here any more.
2. Must have misunderstood you.
3. didn't oder that part on time.
4. That was before we found XXX problem.
5. He was working on his schedule on his laptop and must have lost track of where he was.

Best,

Dave
 
"Did you see your phone messages?"

"No. Why?"

"Lance called about his Baron."

"Lance who?"
 
OK here;s the latest update. The installation which was supposed to take two weeks ended up taking five weeks to the day but it would have been much longer if I hadn't spent six days in Tulsa working alongside the crew helping things along. Altogether I think I put in about 70 hours of my time turning wrenches and occasionally fetching parts. Some of the folks there kept asking me when I was going to get my A&P cert. I finally made the test flight last Tuesday morning and then headed to my sister's place in south TX which is where I am now. Tomorrow morning I'm headed to Ada to get GAMI injectors installed at GAMI. So far I've made two flights since the test and things are working pretty well although it looks like I need to tweak the idle mixture on the left engine a bit richer yet but I might as well wait until the GAMI injectors are in. On the way down I did run the power up to max available at 6000 MSL and saw 195 KTAS which IIRC is about 6 Kt faster than before. Climb rates are noticeably higher but I won't be able to quantify the improvement until I get to record the times to climb up to various altitudes. At this point I'm running ROP so the fuel flow is noticeably higher but the GAMIs should resolve that. After Ada I'm headed home.
 
gismo said:
OK here;s the latest update. The installation which was supposed to take two weeks ended up taking five weeks to the day but it would have been much longer if I hadn't spent six days in Tulsa working alongside the crew helping things along. Altogether I think I put in about 70 hours of my time turning wrenches and occasionally fetching parts. Some of the folks there kept asking me when I was going to get my A&P cert. I finally made the test flight last Tuesday morning and then headed to my sister's place in south TX which is where I am now. Tomorrow morning I'm headed to Ada to get GAMI injectors installed at GAMI. So far I've made two flights since the test and things are working pretty well although it looks like I need to tweak the idle mixture on the left engine a bit richer yet but I might as well wait until the GAMI injectors are in. On the way down I did run the power up to max available at 6000 MSL and saw 195 KTAS which IIRC is about 6 Kt faster than before. Climb rates are noticeably higher but I won't be able to quantify the improvement until I get to record the times to climb up to various altitudes. At this point I'm running ROP so the fuel flow is noticeably higher but the GAMIs should resolve that. After Ada I'm headed home.
Click to expand...

Where in South Texas?
 
let me know if you feel the need to stop in Wichita on your way home.
 
Who did you use (or perhaps more appropriately who used you) for the engine work?

gismo said:
OK here;s the latest update. The installation which was supposed to take two weeks ended up taking five weeks to the day but it would have been much longer if I hadn't spent six days in Tulsa working alongside the crew helping things along. Altogether I think I put in about 70 hours of my time turning wrenches and occasionally fetching parts. Some of the folks there kept asking me when I was going to get my A&P cert. I finally made the test flight last Tuesday morning and then headed to my sister's place in south TX which is where I am now. Tomorrow morning I'm headed to Ada to get GAMI injectors installed at GAMI. So far I've made two flights since the test and things are working pretty well although it looks like I need to tweak the idle mixture on the left engine a bit richer yet but I might as well wait until the GAMI injectors are in. On the way down I did run the power up to max available at 6000 MSL and saw 195 KTAS which IIRC is about 6 Kt faster than before. Climb rates are noticeably higher but I won't be able to quantify the improvement until I get to record the times to climb up to various altitudes. At this point I'm running ROP so the fuel flow is noticeably higher but the GAMIs should resolve that. After Ada I'm headed home.
Click to expand...
 
or Dallas KADS if you need a second opinion on something. Dave is always working (that's why he's rich and flys fancy airplanes) but I sit on my butt and do nothing, so always available for lunch and good company.

tonycondon said:
let me know if you feel the need to stop in Wichita on your way home.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
or Dallas KADS if you need a second opinion on something. Dave is always working (that's why he's rich and flys fancy airplanes) but I sit on my butt and do nothing, so always available for lunch and good company.
Click to expand...

Geesh Wayne, you sure are starting to sound like a Democrat :D. Yea, I'm rich and should be flogged for being so productive, no doubt.

I'll call you sometime to link up. Lance did stop by here for a couple nights and attended an RFC flying club meeting--made part of the presentation on the Hudson River Corridor accident. 'Course if he finds he can fly in your King Air, I may get snubbed next visit. :rofl:

Best,

Dave
 
No danger there, we sold it. It's now flying medevac in Canada. Still teach some in them (I have an insurance-approved school for the 90's) but mostly sit on the porch. My status changed from "big-dog King Air guy" to "taildragger geezer with the shiny 180" in the twinkling of an eye. I kinda like it.

Dave Siciliano said:
Geesh Wayne, you sure are starting to sound like a Democrat :D. Yea, I'm rich and should be flogged for being so productive, no doubt.

I'll call you sometime to link up. Lance did stop by here for a couple nights and attended an RFC flying club meeting--made part of the presentation on the Hudson River Corridor accident. 'Course if he finds he can fly in your King Air, I may get snubbed next visit. :rofl:

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
No danger there, we sold it. It's now flying medevac in Canada. Still teach some in them (I have an insurance-approved school for the 90's) but mostly sit on the porch. My status changed from "big-dog King Air guy" to "taildragger geezer with the shiny 180" in the twinkling of an eye. I kinda like it.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a promotion to me.
 
I'm looking forward to the results as well, especially in normal cruise.

Glad you got it finished, Lance. Can't say I'm surprised about the 2... 3... 4... 5 week time frame. Sounds like my last annual and like my current engine monitor/battery cable install.
 
SCCutler said:
Where in South Texas?
Click to expand...

Just west of San Antonio where my sister lives. I spent a couple days there then headed for ADA on Friday morning and got the GAMI injectors installed, tested, and tweaked. Finally made it home Friday night about 9PM. The engines now run LOP as well or better than my original ones. I still have a small oil leak (makes a mess but doesn't seem to deplete the oil much) on the rear of the left engine. At ADA I found that the cap over the oil pressure relief valve was loose (safety wired but loose) but tightening that didn't seem to have much effect on the leak. Today I plan to investigate further.

Preliminary results indicate that I can make 180 KTAS at 13000 MSL burning the same fuel that used to give me 175 KTAS at 9000. Climb was noticeably improved. I averaged 1000 FPM climbing from 600 MSL to 13000 MSL flying at 150 KTAS. If I slowed to best rate (around 105 KIAS/130 KTAS) I believe I'd see at least 1000 FPM at 13000. Temps were a bit below standard and I was about 10% under gross but under similar conditions I think I used to see an average climb rate closer to 500 FPM through 9000 MSL.
 
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So, performance improvement?
 
I don't think I've seen mentioned what make/model you put in, and if they were new, rebuilt or overhauled... sounds like you got a nice performance and efficiency bump!!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I don't think I've seen mentioned what make/model you put in, and if they were new, rebuilt or overhauled... sounds like you got a nice performance and efficiency bump!!
Click to expand...

The conversion involved replacing the IO-470 cylinders/pistons/conrods/rings with components for an IO-520. Other changes include upsizing the injectors and machining out the choke from the cylinders. The new engines are officially still IO-470s but they have 520 CuIn of displacement and are supposed to make over 300 HP each vs 260 on the originals. To save time and to potentially allow me to recoup some of the cost by selling my one mid-time engine (the other was well beyond TBO) I elected to have two engines built up from other cores for installation. The only parts retained from my engines were the prop governors (both overhauled a couple years ago), the vacuum pumps (both new about one year ago) and one tach generator (overhauled recently).
 
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gismo said:
Preliminary results indicate that I can make 180 KTAS at 13000 MSL burning the same fuel that used to give me 175 KTAS at 9000. Climb was noticeably improved. I averaged 1000 FPM climbing from 600 MSL to 13000 MSL flying at 150 KTAS. If I slowed to best rate (around 105 KIAS/130 KTAS) I believe I'd see at least 1000 FPM at 13000. Temps were a bit below standard and I was about 10% under gross but under similar conditions I think I used to see an average climb rate closer to 500 FPM through 9000 MSL.
Click to expand...

Lance, can these guys do anything for my engines? :)

Sounds like a great improvement. You definitely have me lusting after something similar for mine now.
 
Ted, there is no limit to the performance improvements they can get out of your engines, especially in cruise speed. The downside, of course, is that they will have to install them in a totally different kind of airframe to get it. :rofl:
Ted DuPuis said:
Lance, can these guys do anything for my engines? :)

Sounds like a great improvement. You definitely have me lusting after something similar for mine now.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Ted, there is no limit to the performance improvements they can get out of your engines, especially in cruise speed. The downside, of course, is that they will have to install them in a totally different kind of airframe to get it. :rofl:
Click to expand...

Ahh, Wayne, you're always going for the simple answer! ;)
 
Other changes include upsizing the injectors and machining out the choke from the cylinders. The new engines are officially still IO-470s but they have 520 CuIn of displacement and are supposed to make over 300 HP each vs 260

Good luck with chokeless cylinders. TCM proved that didn't work from 1990 to 2000. Are you going to turn them 2850 to get the theoretical 300 HP rating. None of them will pull 300 on a dyno. You need a 550 to do that.
 
charlie said:
Other changes include upsizing the injectors and machining out the choke from the cylinders. The new engines are officially still IO-470s but they have 520 CuIn of displacement and are supposed to make over 300 HP each vs 260

Good luck with chokeless cylinders. TCM proved that didn't work from 1990 to 2000. Are you going to turn them 2850 to get the theoretical 300 HP rating. None of them will pull 300 on a dyno. You need a 550 to do that.
Click to expand...

Charlie,
I understand that other air cooled engines don't bother with choke on the cylinders - Porsche, motorcycles, etc. Clearly, removing the choke reduces friction. The reduction of friction means more power but how much more, perhaps it's negligible. As far as TCM is concerned, didn't they have other quality control problems with those cylinders?

Have you overhauled any of Ney's engines or torn any down? It's an option for me with the IO470C in my bonanza. First, it's converted to an N then upgraded. I'm curious if I go that route if I'll be in for other problems. One stumbling block with the Ney upgrade for me is that I still need a new prop. My mccauley was never approved for the engine upgrade. I wouldn't save on the baffles because I'd probably want to go with the gami or bds baffles anyway. So when all is said and done, it may make more sense to simply go with a 550 or 520.

Thanks
 
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David said:
Charlie,
I understand that other air cooled engines don't bother with choke on the cylinders - Porsche, motorcycles, etc. Clearly, removing the choke reduces friction. The reduction of friction means more power but how much more, perhaps it's negligible. As far as TCM is concerned, didn't they have other quality control problems with those cylinders?

Have you overhauled any of Ney's engines or torn any down? It's an option for me with the IO470C in my bonanza. First, it's converted to an N then upgraded. I'm curious if I go that route if I'll be in for other problems. One stumbling block with the Ney upgrade for me is that I still need a new prop. My mccauley was never approved for the engine upgrade. I wouldn't save on the baffles because I'd probably want to go with the gami or bds baffles anyway. So when all is said and done, it may make more sense to simply go with a 550 or 520.

Dave, I don't know anyjting about choke is "other" types of engines. I do know that when TCM eliminated the choke in their big bore cylinders in 1990 we started seeeing barrels worn out with only a few hundered hours on them. Often the barrels were so worn that they were beyond salvage at P.015" oversize. The overhaul industry did not for the most part subscribe to the new no choke spec and did not have any problems. We all tried to tell TCM but they were not interested in our feedback and took the attitude that they were the manufacturer they knew all. They finally put the choke back in the spec in 2000 and the problems went away. Of course it did not help their ongoing exhaust valve and guide troubles. As for Ney I only ever had one of his engines apart and it was a disaster. I'm also not in favor of bastardized engines. If you want to hot rod your Bonanza do a 520 or 550.
Click to expand...
 
charlie said:
Dave, I don't know anyjting about choke is "other" types of engines. I do know that when TCM eliminated the choke in their big bore cylinders in 1990 we started seeeing barrels worn out with only a few hundered hours on them. Often the barrels were so worn that they were beyond salvage at P.015" oversize. The overhaul industry did not for the most part subscribe to the new no choke spec and did not have any problems. We all tried to tell TCM but they were not interested in our feedback and took the attitude that they were the manufacturer they knew all. They finally put the choke back in the spec in 2000 and the problems went away. Of course it did not help their ongoing exhaust valve and guide troubles. As for Ney I only ever had one of his engines apart and it was a disaster. I'm also not in favor of bastardized engines. If you want to hot rod your Bonanza do a 520 or 550.
Click to expand...

Thanks Charlie,
I'm hoping I've got a few more years with my current engine. Everything's fine with it - knock wood. When it comes time to overhaul, I'll have to consider the cost premium of a 520 or 550 versus rebuilding the IO470C. There's no weight penalty with the 550 vs the 470. Another avenue suggested to me by my mechanic is to find a low time engine. I guess that's a possibility but one that's got quite a few risks :rolleyes:.
Dave
 
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