L-39 Crash At Quad City Airshow

Awful. Too many friends at this airshow, too many people who knew the pilot. R.I.P.
:sad:
 
What the hell happened? Did he bump one of the others or mechanical issue?

And what is up with the weather BS? It is either safe to fly or it isn't. You don't go pushing the weather envelope just to put on a show for the crowd. No 'great pilot' does that. I somehow doubt weather was the issue.


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Fearless Tower said:
What the hell happened? Did he bump one of the others or mechanical issue?
Click to expand...
Bumped!
And what is up with the weather BS? It is either safe to fly or it isn't. You don't go pushing the weather envelope just to put on a show for the crowd. No 'great pilot' does that. I somehow doubt weather was the issue.
Click to expand...
Ceilings were just about 1,000 at MLI most of the day....
 
bbchien said:
Ceilings were just about 1,000 at MLI most of the day....
Click to expand...
KMLI 012352Z 04010KT 10SM FEW037 SCT050 OVC080 22/19 A2990 RMK AO2 RAB29E39 SLP122 P0000 60006 T02220194 10239 20217 58003
KMLI 012252Z 05012G21KT 10SM SCT028 BKN036 OVC065 23/19 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP121 T02280194
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012223Z 06017G22KT 10SM SCT028 OVC041 23/19 A2990 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012152Z 05013G19KT 10SM OVC023 23/19 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP124 T02330194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012111Z 04015G22KT 10SM OVC016 23/21 A2991 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012052Z 05010KT 10SM OVC014 24/22 A2991 RMK AO2 RAE09 SLP124 P0000 60006 T02390217 58017[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011952Z 06012KT 6SM -RA BR OVC012 22/21 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP130 P0003 T02220211[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011852Z 07013KT 9SM -RA OVC012 22/21 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP137 P0003 T02220206[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011752Z 07012KT 10SM -RA OVC014 22/20 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP141 P0001 60024 T02170200 10217 20200 58006[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011720Z 06011KT 10SM -RA BKN021 BKN028 OVC042 21/19 A2996 RMK AO2 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011652Z 05013G21KT 7SM -RA FEW031 BKN070 OVC100 21/19 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP143 P0010 T02110194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011552Z 07013KT 5SM -RA BR SCT012 BKN041 OVC060 21/19 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP150 P0009 T02060194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011452Z 07014KT 6SM RA BR FEW013 BKN037 OVC048 20/18 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP147 P0004 60004 T02000183 51002[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011405Z 07014KT 8SM -RA SCT016 SCT046 BKN060 21/18 A2997 RMK AO2 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011352Z 07015G20KT 7SM -RA BKN016 BKN044 OVC060 21/17 A2998 RMK AO2 RAB29 SLP147 P0000 T02060172[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011329Z 06012KT 10SM -RA BKN016 OVC060 21/17 A2998 RMK AO2 RAB29 P0000[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011315Z 06012KT 10SM BKN016 BKN065 BKN085 21/16 A2998 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011252Z 07010KT 10SM FEW070 SCT085 21/16 A2997 RMK AO2 RAB11E21 SLP146 P0000 T02060161[/FONT]
 
A pilot buddy of mine and his son were at the show. Very sad... they are stunned. He was looking for a chute, but there was none. :no:
 
Ron Levy said:
KMLI 012352Z 04010KT 10SM FEW037 SCT050 OVC080 22/19 A2990 RMK AO2 RAB29E39 SLP122 P0000 60006 T02220194 10239 20217 58003
KMLI 012252Z 05012G21KT 10SM SCT028 BKN036 OVC065 23/19 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP121 T02280194
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012223Z 06017G22KT 10SM SCT028 OVC041 23/19 A2990 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012152Z 05013G19KT 10SM OVC023 23/19 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP124 T02330194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012111Z 04015G22KT 10SM OVC016 23/21 A2991 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 012052Z 05010KT 10SM OVC014 24/22 A2991 RMK AO2 RAE09 SLP124 P0000 60006 T02390217 58017[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011952Z 06012KT 6SM -RA BR OVC012 22/21 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP130 P0003 T02220211[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011852Z 07013KT 9SM -RA OVC012 22/21 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP137 P0003 T02220206[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011752Z 07012KT 10SM -RA OVC014 22/20 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP141 P0001 60024 T02170200 10217 20200 58006[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011720Z 06011KT 10SM -RA BKN021 BKN028 OVC042 21/19 A2996 RMK AO2 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011652Z 05013G21KT 7SM -RA FEW031 BKN070 OVC100 21/19 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP143 P0010 T02110194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011552Z 07013KT 5SM -RA BR SCT012 BKN041 OVC060 21/19 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP150 P0009 T02060194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011452Z 07014KT 6SM RA BR FEW013 BKN037 OVC048 20/18 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP147 P0004 60004 T02000183 51002[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011405Z 07014KT 8SM -RA SCT016 SCT046 BKN060 21/18 A2997 RMK AO2 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011352Z 07015G20KT 7SM -RA BKN016 BKN044 OVC060 21/17 A2998 RMK AO2 RAB29 SLP147 P0000 T02060172[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011329Z 06012KT 10SM -RA BKN016 OVC060 21/17 A2998 RMK AO2 RAB29 P0000[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011315Z 06012KT 10SM BKN016 BKN065 BKN085 21/16 A2998 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KMLI 011252Z 07010KT 10SM FEW070 SCT085 21/16 A2997 RMK AO2 RAB11E21 SLP146 P0000 T02060161[/FONT]
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Quad City Airshow isn't flown at MLI. It's at DVN.
 
They take the original ejection seats out of those things for civilian use, right? Judging from the announcer I bet they collided.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Quad City Airshow isn't flown at MLI. It's at DVN.
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OK -- Bruce said MLI.

KDVN 020052Z AUTO 06012KT 10SM FEW021 SCT055 22/18 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP130 T02170183
KDVN 012352Z AUTO 06011G18KT 10SM BKN065 OVC080 23/19 A2992 RMK AO2 SLP128 60004 T02280189 10233 20217 56004
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 012252Z AUTO 05011KT 10SM FEW038 BKN049 BKN070 22/20 A2992 RMK AO2 RAE20B37E50 SLP129 P0000 T02170200[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 012152Z AUTO 05012KT 8SM -RA FEW028 SCT032 BKN048 23/20 A2993 RMK AO2 RAB36 SLP130 P0000 T02330200[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 012100Z AUTO 05016KT 10SM SCT023 OVC036 23/19 A2994 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 012052Z AUTO 05013KT 10SM BKN023 OVC036 23/19 A2994 RMK AO2 RAE42 SLP133 P0002 60004 T02280194 58010[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011952Z AUTO 05014KT 7SM -RA BKN025 OVC031 22/19 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP139 P0002 T02220194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011852Z AUTO 07014KT 8SM -RA FEW023 BKN040 OVC047 22/19 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP143 P0000 T02220194[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011847Z AUTO 07014KT 9SM -RA SCT023 SCT029 OVC040 22/20 A2997 RMK AO2 P0000[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011752Z AUTO 06011G20KT 9SM -RA OVC021 22/18 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP147 P0002 60004 T02170183 10228 20211 58006[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011739Z AUTO 06012KT 5SM -RA SCT021 BKN026 OVC047 22/18 A2998 RMK AO2 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011652Z AUTO 06015G20KT 5SM -RA SCT055 BKN070 OVC090 21/18 A2999 RMK AO2 RAB1554 SLP150 P0002 T02110183[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011629Z AUTO 07012KT 5SM -RA SCT020 OVC060 22/18 A3000 RMK AO2 RAB1554 P0001[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011608Z AUTO 07013G22KT 10SM -RA BKN018 BKN049 OVC060 22/18 A3000 RMK AO2 RAB1554 P0000[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011552Z AUTO 08012G20KT 9SM BKN049 BKN060 23/17 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP155 T02280172[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011528Z AUTO 07014G20KT 10SM SCT016 22/17 A2999 RMK AO2[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011452Z AUTO 07011KT 10SM OVC016 22/17 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP153 T02170172 53003[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KDVN 011352Z AUTO 07012KT 10SM OVC018 22/16 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP151 T02170161[/FONT]
 
Mafoo said:
Why deactivate them?
Click to expand...

They are explosive devices,and none of those old East Block seats are meant for low altitude. Besides, not mant people in the Caterpillar Club made it through the initiation unscathed.
 
Mafoo said:
Why deactivate them?
Click to expand...
I can't remember if it was here or on another forum, but someone recently mentioned that there was some FAA stipulation related to the airworthiness certificates that required the seats to be deactivated in order to fly them in the US. I do know there are a few out there that still have them working, but not sure how they got around the restriction.
 
Just saw this on the news. Sad stuff...
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, the Russians built some highly capable seats, in particular as demonstrated (not by plan) at the Paris Air Show in 1989.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL1FblthxQ0
Neither the Martin-Baker seats or the General Dynamics ejection capsule I rode would have got me out of that one.
Click to expand...


They would have been in the envolpes of the F-4 MB seat and the F-111 capsule as long as the handles were pulled promptly.
 
denverpilot said:
Another video. :(

Click to expand...

That is a little better video than the first. In the first video, it looked like the guy on he right was the one who went in. The second video looks like the guy on the right crossed over (they one you later see flying off to the left) and hit one of the other two.


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Mafoo said:
Why deactivate them?
Click to expand...

Some deactivate them because required maintenance/inspection on the charge isn't worth the risk of having a "hot seat" below your butt. Most guys are wearing parachutes anyway so they could still bail if at a slow enough airspeed. I've read some older guys want them out because the ejection would crush their spine anyway. Then there are those that believe with the more docile jets like the L-29/L-39 you could still glide it to an airfield with the loss of an engine. Some jets have glide ratios better than prop aircraft. Still though there are some that keep the seats hot. Mostly the Migs.
 
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JimNtexas said:
They would have been in the envolpes of the F-4 MB seat and the F-111 capsule as long as the handles were pulled promptly.
Click to expand...
Not where that guy went out. Those were both zero-zero-zero systems -- zero speed, zero sink, zero bank. In that vertical dive at the ground from under 300 feet, you'd never make it in either the Martin-Baker in the F-4 or the F-111 capsule. ACES II, maybe, but not the systems on which I rode. In fact, my sponsor at Cannon AFB died after attempting to eject in less demanding conditions and the main chute didn't have time to deploy. The capsule hit hard and they were killed on impact.
 
Mafoo said:
it's harder to hear the people who went to watch the show crying, then it is to see the crash.

The pilot knew the risks. I doubt it ever entered the minds of the viewers.
Click to expand...

My thoughts, exactly.
 
denverpilot said:
Another video. :(
Click to expand...
What is a "signature switch break-up"? I've never heard of such a maneuver, and I really couldn't tell from that video what they were trying to do. I did hear the announcer say they would be operating "within inches of each other," and that would be too bloody close for amateurs -- even the Blues don't get within two feet of each other.
 
I'm guessing right goes left, left goes right, lead goes up? Collision is my best guess.
 
Ron Levy said:
I did hear the announcer say they would be operating "within inches of each other," and that would be too bloody close for amateurs -- even the Blues don't get within two feet of each other.
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I can measure how far I am from you in inches, so I think it's more to wow the crowed the they are really suposed to get that close.

I would suspect they are feet away from each other, when they do it right.
 
Video made it appear that right was closing under lead. Which plane hit the ground?
 
Mafoo said:
I can measure how far I am from you in inches, so I think it's more to wow the crowed the they are really suposed to get that close.
Click to expand...
I do a good bit of formation work with other FFI-certified folks, and we generally work 6-10 feet apart. I understand the use of hyperbole by an announcer, but "within inches"? :rolleyes:

I would suspect they are feet away from each other, when they do it right.
Click to expand...
How many feet?
 
Ron Levy said:
I do a good bit of formation work with other FFI-certified folks, and we generally work 6-10 feet apart. I understand the use of hyperbole by an announcer, but "within inches"? :rolleyes:

How many feet?
Click to expand...

A few feet looks like inches from the ground. That being said, people that don't fly, and don't have experience flying form, naturally think that it is really challenging and dangerous because you are going fast. They don't stop to think of the relative motion, which is/should be quite low, making it quite easy to fly very close form if you know what you are doing. Like riding a bike I guess. The one that the Blues do that does really impress me is when the opposing solo re-joins on the diamond with like 3-400kts Vc on the inside of their turn, and then just stops it perfectly in tight parade. That does take some skill, and while I have affected some pretty SH joins in the ol' Hornet, and while it also can dump 100 or so knts in a matter of 2-3 seconds with a little cross control action, that is still an impressive feat of airmanship IMHO.
 
35 AoA said:
A few feet looks like inches from the ground. That being said, people that don't fly, and don't have experience flying form, naturally think that it is really challenging and dangerous because you are going fast. They don't stop to think of the relative motion, which is/should be quite low, making it quite easy to fly very close form if you know what you are doing.
Click to expand...
...and you practice it on a daily basis.

Like riding a bike I guess.
Click to expand...
Maybe so, but when I haven't done any formation for a few weeks, I really feel the difference. OTOH, after four or five days of 2-a-days, it starts to groove in again. But at age 61, I know I'll never be able to fly as well as I could 20 years ago.

The one that the Blues do that does really impress me is when the opposing solo re-joins on the diamond with like 3-400kts Vc on the inside of their turn, and then just stops it perfectly in tight parade. That does take some skill, and while I have affected some pretty SH joins in the ol' Hornet, and while it also can dump 100 or so knts in a matter of 2-3 seconds with a little cross control action, that is still an impressive feat of airmanship IMHO.
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Agreed. Rejoins are a lot scarier than a lot of people realize, because your're aiming your plane right at lead's plane, not just flying in the same direction. But the timing and precise positioning necessary for manevers like the Blues' "tuck away" cross is still of the highest order.
 
35 AoA said:
A few feet looks like inches from the ground. That being said, people that don't fly, and don't have experience flying form, naturally think that it is really challenging and dangerous because you are going fast. They don't stop to think of the relative motion, which is/should be quite low, making it quite easy to fly very close form if you know what you are doing. Like riding a bike I guess. The one that the Blues do that does really impress me is when the opposing solo re-joins on the diamond with like 3-400kts Vc on the inside of their turn, and then just stops it perfectly in tight parade. That does take some skill, and while I have affected some pretty SH joins in the ol' Hornet, and while it also can dump 100 or so knts in a matter of 2-3 seconds with a little cross control action, that is still an impressive feat of airmanship IMHO.[/QUOTE

As a former controller whose done quite a few GCAs, what always impressed me was how you guys do section GCAs in the soup. That must be completely disorienting trying to fly off of a wing while dirtying up the aircraft with all the power changes involved. Later on instructing in Black Hawks I'd tell the guys how fighters do section IMC approaches and they didn't believe me. "No way ,how do they see each other in the clouds?" :wink2:
Click to expand...
 
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Velocity173 said:
35 AoA said:
A few feet looks like inches from the ground. That being said, people that don't fly, and don't have experience flying form, naturally think that it is really challenging and dangerous because you are going fast. They don't stop to think of the relative motion, which is/should be quite low, making it quite easy to fly very close form if you know what you are doing. Like riding a bike I guess. The one that the Blues do that does really impress me is when the opposing solo re-joins on the diamond with like 3-400kts Vc on the inside of their turn, and then just stops it perfectly in tight parade. That does take some skill, and while I have affected some pretty SH joins in the ol' Hornet, and while it also can dump 100 or so knts in a matter of 2-3 seconds with a little cross control action, that is still an impressive feat of airmanship IMHO.[/QUOTE

As a former controller whose done quite a few GCAs, what always impressed me was how you guys do section GCAs in the soup. That must be completely disorienting trying to fly off of a wing while dirtying up the aircraft with all the power changes involved. Later on instructing in Black Hawks I'd tell the guys how fighters do section IMC approaches and they didn't believe me. "No way ,how do they see each other in the clouds?" :wink2:
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That is probably my least favorite thing to do aside from night traps at the boat but in terms of stick and rudder monkey skills it isn't too bad, it just sucks because you have very little time for other SA building activities when you are flying that close. That said after a while you start to recognize that most non convective clouds aren't that dense and you can afford to fly a little looser for the sake of your own comfort, and still keep sight of your lead.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
...and you practice it on a daily basis.

Maybe so, but when I haven't done any formation for a few weeks, I really feel the difference. OTOH, after four or five days of 2-a-days, it starts to groove in again. But at age 61, I know I'll never be able to fly as well as I could 20 years ago.

Agreed. Rejoins are a lot scarier than a lot of people realize, because your're aiming your plane right at lead's plane, not just flying in the same direction. But the timing and precise positioning necessary for manevers like the Blues' "tuck away" cross is still of the highest order.
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It isn't just the age, I still feel rusty after a week or two out of the cockpit. Then again I have a great FCS making me look good even when I'm not. The rejoin has probably killed more guys and broken more jets than anything else. Whenever I bring the heat like that, I'm always stepped down in case I goon it away....I'm sure you did/do the same. Crazy thing about the blues is that they do that co altitude and do it for keeps
 
35 AoA said:
Velocity173 said:
That is probably my least favorite thing to do aside from night traps at the boat but in terms of stick and rudder monkey skills it isn't too bad, it just sucks because you have very little time for other SA building activities when you are flying that close. That said after a while you start to recognize that most non convective clouds aren't that dense and you can afford to fly a little looser for the sake of your own comfort, and still keep sight of your lead.
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Never had a guy lose sight of lead on a GCA. It's happened a few times while I worked approach during convective stuff. Gotta be a little scary cruising along by yourself while 3 of your buddies are heading the other way. Of course I never heard any nerves in a fighter pilot's voice.:)
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