KSMO to KSNA

[Adam]

i'm heading down there soon. i'm doing the mini route through LAX. Can i go all the way at 2500 feet? Also, on the way back do i have to do special flight rules at 5500 or can i just do mini route again back?

In advance, thanks for the help.

 

[luvflyin]

You could stay at 2500 but you'd have deal with LGB and SLI or go around them. The Special Flight Rules Area going back would be at 4500. The Mini Route going back northbound works. Be sure to get a TAC chart and read the details about how it works. You'd call HHR Tower first.

 

[stratobee]

Watch out for the permanent TFR over Disneyworld. Goes up to 3000ft.

 

[Adam]

Thanks Luvflyin and Stratobee for the input. I figured if i was on flight following they'd clear me through the air spaces. I thought i watched a youtube video where someone did that (smo to sna at 2500). But i'd never trust a youtube video! I also could probably just go to 4500 and use FF. As i understand they ask you to proceed direct to the Huntington Beach Pier (VPLHP). It's great to be able to review with pilots here. This is my first on this site.

 

[luvflyin]

Often approaches

Thanks Luvflyin and Stratobee for the input. I figured if i was on flight following they'd clear me through the air spaces. I thought i watched a youtube video where someone did that (smo to sna at 2500). But i'd never trust a youtube video! I also could probably just go to 4500 and use FF. As i understand they ask you to proceed direct to the Huntington Beach Pier (VPLHP). It's great to be able to review with pilots here. This is my first on this site.

Sometimes Approach will coordinate D overflights and let you know, but not always. The one time I did the Mini Route I didn't work with Approach at all, just HHR, LAX and SMO towers. I've never even asked for service from Approach that low around there. It wouldn't surprise me if they usually won't do it. There might be some regular customers here that will know. Both times I've done the Special Flight Rules Area from the south I was with Approach and both times they assigned 1201 and terminated me pretty far out, like around the harbor.

 

[Vf6cruiser]

when you're in the mini route you don't talk to ATC at all just each other..........read the instructions carefully on the chart and you won't have any trouble..........

 

[Unbeliever]

Watch out for the permanent TFR over Disneyworld. Goes up to 3000ft.

It doesn't exist if you're talking to ATC. I've flown over Space Mountain several times under flight following below 3000.

when you're in the mini route you don't talk to ATC at all just each other..........read the instructions carefully on the chart and you won't have any trouble..........

Incorrect. You don't have to talk to ATC using the SFRA at 3500/4500 feet. The mini-route at 2500 feet most definitely needs ATC coordination and clearance.

 

[eetrojan]

Here's the general path from SMO (Santa Monica) to SNA (John Wayne) via the "Mini Route" at 2500 feet.

This keeps you above the TOA delta and outside of the lateral edges of the LGB and SLI deltas, but if you're concerned you can climb to 3000 after exiting the Mini Route.

I explicitly added the "right 270" at the coast after departing SMO because I believe that's a common instruction from tower to make sure you reach 2500 before the LAX bravo.

Nearing Huntington Pier is where Approach will hand you to SNA tower.

And, you can just reverse this route to go back (except for the right 270 of course ).

 

[StinkBug]

Thanks Luvflyin and Stratobee for the input. I figured if i was on flight following they'd clear me through the air spaces. I thought i watched a youtube video where someone did that (smo to sna at 2500). But i'd never trust a youtube video! I also could probably just go to 4500 and use FF. As i understand they ask you to proceed direct to the Huntington Beach Pier (VPLHP). It's great to be able to review with pilots here. This is my first on this site.

You should pick up a copy of the TAC and read it. The routes across LAX are very specific and the controllers expect you to know them. Simply calling for FF and saying you're going to SNA won't work, at least not well. Generally when you call them up they will ask you "how do you plan to navigate the bravo" at which point you tell them which of the several routes you want (in this case either the mini route or SFRA). They expect you to know the routing and will give you a clearance for the route as published. The SFRA is a little different in that they will drop you from FF, tell you to squawk 1201 and switch to the advisory frequency. The route shown above will work just fine, but you do need to know the details of the route. ATC generally doesn't hold your hand here, they just say "cleared into the bravo at 2500 via the mini route" and from there you are expected to follow that route on your own. I've heard many an unfamiliar pilot call up asking to cross one way or the other and get denied. It's not hard at all, you just need the info. Also for the SFRA I think you are legally required to have a TAC on board to fly it.

I fly from Carlsbad across this stretch usually a couple times a week, often to SMO. Personally I prefer the SFRA, as the mini route just has too many frequency changes in a short time, and all the frequencies are busy. Take off from SMO, do the right 270 to get up to 3500 (they will want you to wait til the shoreline to make the turn FYI) and fly the corridor as described on the TAC. Once you're past LAX you can contact SoCal Approach and get FF down to SNA. The way back is basically the same, but at 4500.

 

[ircphoenix]

... ATC generally doesn't hold your hand here, they just say "cleared into the bravo at 2500 via the mini route" and from there you are expected to follow that route on your own. I've heard many an unfamiliar pilot call up asking to cross one way or the other and get denied. It's not hard at all, you just need the info.

Personally I prefer the SFRA, as the mini route just has too many frequency changes in a short time, and all the frequencies are busy ...

All of this. If you're taking off from SMO and using the SFRA, you'll have to pick up FF with the whole call up to SoCal on the other side of LAX.

I prefer to use the mini route northbound and southbound when I go from TOA to SBP and back, because it has the added advantage of being assigned a unique squawk, so when you get dumped out on either side of the transition, SMO or HHR can hand you off to SoCal. North and south on the miniroute are both 2500, but if there's opposite direction traffic, they'll tell you or the other guy to go up to 3,000. It's nice having a second set of eyes on a radar scope, imho. But yes, you can do miniroute both directions.

 

[StinkBug]

Oh, one other note for making the SFRA easier if you're going farther north than SMO. When they drop you from FF around Torrance just ask what frequency to pick up again on the other side. Then when you're out of the corridor you know who to call to continue flight following. You'll still have to give all the info, but I generally find this easier than having to switch from SoCal to HHR to LAX to SMO to SoCal. Just my preference though, both routes work.

 

[Shawn]

but I generally find this easier than having to switch from SoCal to HHR to LAX to SMO to SoCal. Just my preference though, both routes work.

....and I am the COMPLETE opposite. I would rather have the handoffs than being dumped off FF then trying to reestablish on the other side heading into busy airspace. I have had delays and problems get reestablished on the SMO side on busy days.

 

[luvflyin]

You should pick up a copy of the TAC and read it. The routes across LAX are very specific and the controllers expect you to know them. Simply calling for FF and saying you're going to SNA won't work, at least not well. Generally when you call them up they will ask you "how do you plan to navigate the bravo" at which point you tell them which of the several routes you want (in this case either the mini route or SFRA). They expect you to know the routing and will give you a clearance for the route as published. The SFRA is a little different in that they will drop you from FF, tell you to squawk 1201 and switch to the advisory frequency. The route shown above will work just fine, but you do need to know the details of the route. ATC generally doesn't hold your hand here, they just say "cleared into the bravo at 2500 via the mini route" and from there you are expected to follow that route on your own. I've heard many an unfamiliar pilot call up asking to cross one way or the other and get denied. It's not hard at all, you just need the info. Also for the SFRA I think you are legally required to have a TAC on board to fly it.

I fly from Carlsbad across this stretch usually a couple times a week, often to SMO. Personally I prefer the SFRA, as the mini route just has too many frequency changes in a short time, and all the frequencies are busy. Take off from SMO, do the right 270 to get up to 3500 (they will want you to wait til the shoreline to make the turn FYI) and fly the corridor as described on the TAC. Once you're past LAX you can contact SoCal Approach and get FF down to SNA. The way back is basically the same, but at 4500.

Only thing I could add to this is that you should not only read the TAC. You are required to have a current copy of it in the aircraft for the SFRA

 

[ircphoenix]

Oh, one other note for making the SFRA easier if you're going farther north than SMO. When they drop you from FF around Torrance just ask what frequency to pick up again on the other side. Then when you're out of the corridor you know who to call to continue flight following. You'll still have to give all the info, but I generally find this easier than having to switch from SoCal to HHR to LAX to SMO to SoCal. Just my preference though, both routes work.

Just out of curiosity, how many radios are you running?

In the (someone else's) plane I fly, the two radios with 4 spots for frequencies lets me set all that up ahead of time. Then it's just a matter of button pushing with no scrolling through freqs. =D

 

[Adam]

So much help. Very appreciated. I always have the TAC and Sectional. i've flown the mini route many a time but only south bound as a student. Instructors always take me up to 4500 on the north bound with SFRA. Then we chop and drop to get to pattern for KSMO. So i wasn't sure about taking the mini route north. But the TAC allows for it with specific instructions. Also, both ksmo and hawthorne must be in vfr conditions and the mini route must be "open". i've been told before it's "currently closed." All my asking was just about going to KSNA. Never been there and will be first as licensed pilot. I've been reading up on it. Seems FF directs you to Huntington Beach Pier and then hands off to John Wayne.

Thanks all for so much feedback. you guys are great.

 

[eetrojan]

Since this is your first time to SNA, here are a couple of other thing to help you prepare.

When coming in from the HB Pier, after reporting "John Wayne Tower, bugmasher AB123 inbound, Huntington Beach Pier," SNA tower will almost always tell you to make right traffic for runway 20R, the long runway used by the airliners.

However, as you get closer, they usually but don't always instruct you to "cross mid-field at or above 1300 feet and enter the downwind for runway 20L."

The TPA's are 1050 for 20R and 850 for 20L.

Also, if you end up in the pattern for 20L, which is likely, you are supposed to fly your final (at least most of it) at a 15 degree angle to the runway. That's designed to keep us bugmashers from overshooting into the path of the airlines.

Just FYI so you've got the two possibilities in mind.

 

[Adam]

The TPA's are 1050 for 20R and 850 for 20L.

Also, if you end up in the pattern for 20L, which is likely, you are supposed to fly your final (at least most of it) at a 15 degree angle to the runway. That's designed to keep us bugmashers from overshooting into the path of the airlines.

That's super helpful. I was reading the AFD and was like "15 degrees... hmmm" but you helped make it make sense. So if they give me 20L then as you cross midfield your descending to that new pattern (i'll check AFD again)??

I get that it's not a complicated route but an abundance of caution (in my opinion) is never a bad idea. Thanks!

 

[StinkBug]

Only thing I could add to this is that you should not only read the TAC. You are required to have a current copy of it in the aircraft for the SFRA

I said that in the last line of what you quoted

Just out of curiosity, how many radios are you running?

In the (someone else's) plane I fly, the two radios with 4 spots for frequencies lets me set all that up ahead of time. Then it's just a matter of button pushing with no scrolling through freqs. =D

I have 2 radios, the problem that I have had is that each handoff is very close to the next piece of airspace, and when it's busy it can be difficult to even check in before busting that airspace. Technically you should be ok once you've been cleared, but when I'm given an instruction to contact a tower I like to do it before actually getting into that towers space. Last time I flew the mini-route it was so busy that by the time I managed to check on with each controller they were handing me off to the next. Made for more stress than I like.

 

[ircphoenix]

Gotcha. I've only had that experience once when trying to get through to LAX since they were busy with fling wing traffic. I guess I'm just so used to it by now that it's just rote.

You're right. It's quick. Especially when it's busy. I've had tower kick me loose to SMO 20-30 seconds after being cleared into the bravo.

 

[Adam]

I did the flight! It was fantastic and all the advise was VERY NECESSARY!!! And "register@..." you were right. Originally inbound they gave me 20R and then switched it, had me cross over the tower to join the downwind for 20L. It was BUSY, to say the least. First the tower extended my downwind and told me they'd call my base. Then, on final, they had me do a go around. When i was finally cleared to land, the wildest part was seeing a 737 crossing 20L for 20R as i was on extended final. Plenty of time but just wild to see. The FBO could not have been nicer. When i was ready to leave they had shoved my 172 practically under the wing of some jet. They so wanted to get it out of the way (Atlantic FBO) but they were super nice. Ground was helpful as i needed progressive taxi. I apologized and they said not to even worry. They prefer pilots to always ask. I only got yelled at once after take-off when i was departing and tower asked for my altitude and i thought they meant my requested altitude. Sort of yelled at but they were right and i was wrong. Quickly corrected. Thanks again. This is my first on this site and you guys are super helpful!!! Made for a safe flight with all the advice.

 

[Shawn]

How did you transition LAX?

 

[Adam]

Shawn, i've done the LAX transition a lot since i trained out of Santa Monica. I know both Special Flight Rules and The Mini Route. For this trip i did the Mini Route. For spacing LAX had me drop to 2000. But after LAX I remained at 2500 the entire trip. Including the return trip. I even had a problem with setting up my gps properly to use radials. so i just used vor. I used gps for direct to stuff. Gotta say, i was sweating this trip but calmness, planning and good advice really helped.