KSAT on Saturday (over/around DFW?)

[CJones]

If I can get shifts covered at work on Saturday, I'll be flying from AMW to SAT to help my sis and her husband move into their first house.

Dad has made the trip down that way several times now, but he always ends up on the east side and gets routed out and around DFW. A look at our route will put us over the top or just a little west of DFW. Any tips on navigating the area? If I go up to 11-12k, will they let me go over the top, or should I expect/plan a route around the area? If so, any tips on what to expect?

 

[KennyFlys]

If I knew what was happening during this week, I'd make a deal... I've gotta get a place in AUS to move into as well.

 

[wsuffa]

If I can get shifts covered at work on Saturday, I'll be flying from AMW to SAT to help my sis and her husband move into their first house.

Dad has made the trip down that way several times now, but he always ends up on the east side and gets routed out and around DFW. A look at our route will put us over the top or just a little west of DFW. Any tips on navigating the area? If I go up to 11-12k, will they let me go over the top, or should I expect/plan a route around the area? If so, any tips on what to expect?

Around. You'll need to be at 16+ to go over, depending on time of day, sometimes they'll put you in the FLs. I've got a turbocharger - the only time I tried to go over they wanted me at FL190 N-bound.

Most likely you'll get sent to Bonham, thence Cedar Creek (you might negotiate direct CQY), then Centex, and the MARCSx arrival. After Centex, Austin Approach will generally give you direct MARCS (assuming GPS equipped).

From OKC, the routing is down the west side - V17/V358, IIRC (over Milsap), then the Stonewall (STV) arrival.

Outbound from SAT, file over Milsap if you want the west side, over Cedar Creek on the east. You'll go over Lampassas to the west, V550-PINCH-CWK to the east.

Hope that helps.

 

[CJones]

Around. You'll need to be at 16+ to go over, depending on time of day, sometimes they'll put you in the FLs. I've got a turbocharger - the only time I tried to go over they wanted me at FL190 N-bound.

Most likely you'll get sent to Bonham, thence Cedar Creek (you might negotiate direct CQY), then Centex, and the MARCSx arrival. After Centex, Austin Approach will generally give you direct MARCS (assuming GPS equipped).

From OKC, the routing is down the west side - V17/V358, IIRC (over Milsap), then the Stonewall (STV) arrival.

Outbound from SAT, file over Milsap if you want the west side, over Cedar Creek on the east. You'll go over Lampassas to the west, V550-PINCH-CWK to the east.

Hope that helps.

Awesome! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Just out of curiosity, would it be 'easier' to be VFR as opposed to on IFR plan? Looks like wx will be solid (hot) VFR for the weekend, but I've had mixed results trying to circumvent airspace VFR vs IFR.

As an aside, we'll be in a VOR-only 182RG but will have 396 onboard.

 

[SkyHog]

Why 16,000? The cieling of DFW appears to be 11,000.

 

[MarkM]

It don't matter....you'll go around the DFW airspace at 12000. I've never tried it at 16,000.

 

[wsuffa]

Awesome! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Just out of curiosity, would it be 'easier' to be VFR as opposed to on IFR plan? Looks like wx will be solid (hot) VFR for the weekend, but I've had mixed results trying to circumvent airspace VFR vs IFR.

As an aside, we'll be in a VOR-only 182RG but will have 396 onboard.

If you're VOR equipped and go IFR, they'll probably want you on airways and you'll follow the arrival procedure. The VORs are far enough apart that it'll be a stretch to go direct with just a VOR. Once you pick up Centex, you should be able to go direct, but CWK D-> MARCS will be more difficult w/o GPS.

With VFR you can sorta do what you want as long as you're outside the Class B and not talking to anyone. If you want flight following, plan on going around. And if you cross the Bonham and Cedar Creek VORs, it's probably better to have flight following because that's a major inbound gate for both DFW and DAL.

Waco and Austin approach are both great with VFR traffic and flight following. SAT is a little more rigid - then again, SAT has a LOT of military training traffic from Randolph (NE of SAT) and Lackland (west of SAT) to contend with.

Why 16,000? The cieling of DFW appears to be 11,000.

It may be, but Dallas tracon doesn't route GA IFR traffic over the top. You generally can get a routing over the top if you're talking to Ft. Worth Center - but that requires being at least at 16,000.

Look at the charts: there are no V-routes into/through the Class B. They ALL go across one of the 4 corner point VORs outside the Class B.

The problem (such as it is) with Dallas is that there are two Class B airports (Love and DFW) plus a multitude of smaller airports under the Class B. *IF* you try and arrive at Arlington or even Redbird from San Antonio, you'll go up the west side (over JEN), then at a relatively low altitude across/under the DFW section of the Class B, then into the airport. Departures are easier (Joe Pool departure, or simply direct into Waco's airspace). There is a lot of traffic in that Class B.

Yes, you can go over the top if you're not talking to anyone - and people certainly do it. If you do, keep your eyes on a swivel.

 

[SkyHog]

It appears V369 does, but that is it. That's crazy. I was not aware that Love was a Class B airport too.

Insanity.

 

[wsuffa]

It appears V369 does, but that is it. That's crazy. I was not aware that Love was a Class B airport too.

Insanity.

V369 terminates at Maverick VOR. It does not go through. And it won't be assigned.

Houston (HOU and IAH) are a combined Class B also. Washington (DCA, IAD, and BWI) is a combined Class B. Chicago is an exception - MDW is a Class C. New York is a combined B (JFK, LGA and EWR).

 

[CJones]

I think I've got a route. Amazingly enough, I can stay on two v-airways the whole way! (They must follow I-35 )

KAMW DSM V161 OKM V15 ACT MARCS8 KSAT
5hr 30ish mins in the 182RG.

We'll be departing early tomorrow AM to try and beat as much of the heat as possible. I'm not sure my sis could have picked a hotter weekend to move. Good grief. Oh well, at least there will be BBQ involved.

 

[wsuffa]

I think I've got a route. Amazingly enough, I can stay on two v-airways the whole way! (They must follow I-35 )

KAMW DSM V161 OKM V15 ACT MARCS8 KSAT
5hr 30ish mins in the 182RG.

We'll be departing early tomorrow AM to try and beat as much of the heat as possible. I'm not sure my sis could have picked a hotter weekend to move. Good grief. Oh well, at least there will be BBQ involved.

That route works & is assignable (and probably pretty close to what you'll get)... probably the one I'd take if I were staying on the Victor airways. With the GPS, I'd probably cut out some of the VORs on V161, but other than that...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I second what Bill says. I do get to go over and through the Class B because my airport is under it, but passing over IFR from afar will be an issue below 160. I've flown VFR over it several times. If you do, it would be good to look at the STAR and departure routes to DFW and Love so you know where to expect that traffic. I have TIS aboard which is a help.
Arrivals come in along the four VOR (called the four corners) at the NE (Bonham). SE (Cedar Creek), NW (Bowie) and SW (Glenrose) corners. Departing traffic goes out on the major headings in between of N, E, S. & W. I like to be talking to someone when I pass over, either VFR or IFR.

As a matter of fact, I've found the same is true over St. Louis, Chicago, and Atlanta.

Best,

Dave

 

[CJones]

Had a good trip down to CVB (formerly T98 or T89 - can't remember) which is on the outskirts of KSAT's airspace. I originally filed to KSAT, but after dad arrived he said he preferred CVB because of driving traffic around KSAT.

First leg AMW - F10 (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N5274S/history/20080809/1430Z/KAMW/F10). Just northeast of Kansas City, we were in the soup and the 396 showed that we could extend our due-south leg and remain out of the heavy precip. Asked for and received direct EOS. We were in-and-out of light/moderate precip, but no bumps to speak of. Didn't see the ground for another 2 hours or so until we started our descent south of Tulsa for F10. Ceilings there were 6000' or so, so no approach, but winds were pretty stiff and gusty, which made for a handful of a landing on a fairly narrow strip at F10. Noel met us on the ramp to pump our $4.XX 100LL. As we were getting ready to go, a NICE looking Stearman came in, but since we were blocking the pumps, we had to start-up to move and decided to go ahead and depart rather than sticking around to drool.

Second leg F10 - CVB (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N5274S/history/20080809/1716Z/F10/KCVB). I had previously filed our route to KSAT before departing AMW, but dad said he was planning on CVB, so climbing out of F10, I requested Ft. Worth Center to change our destination. No big deal. Easy routing around DFW's Class B. We even got Direct XXX a couple of times to cut corners -- without us even asking for it! It was smooth at 10k, but over Austin, we were given a descent down to 6000' which put us in the afternoon heat & bumps. It was interesting to fly over the top of Austin, as Rachel and I are considering moving to the area after we're done with school next year. Took the opportunity to take some 'scouting' photos of the area. Down to 4000' a little closer to SAT and we were getting rocked around pretty well. Visual into CVB. It didn't take us long to realize we were in Texas - it was ~65*F when we departed AMW that morning, and on the taxi-in at CVB the OAT was showing 95*F and climbing.

We took it easy Saturday afternoon/evening - including a trip to Texas Pride BBQ outside of San Antonio. We were fairly underwhelmed. Dad and I have both been exploring the realms of smoking meats ourselves, and we've come to realize that we will never get 'good' BBQ at a restaurant again. Oh well. Help my sister and brother-in-law move into their first house all day Sunday. It was hot - 100*F - but I never 'felt' hot like I was expecting. Heck, I only sweated through one shirt!

Return trip today (Monday). First leg CVB - EOS (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N5274S/history/20080811/1545Z/KCVB/KEOS). F10 is closed on Mondays, so we decided to go a little farther north before stopping for fuel. Our preflight weather checking showed some heavy stuff moving through around Tulsa, but it looked as though it would be out of the way by the time we got there, and if not, it was small enough we could pick our way through as necessary. Climb out of CVB into 1700' ceilings, pick up IFR with SAT App, and into the clouds. Tops 4300' and we were in the sun again. This time, I filed around the west side of DFW. SAT App. got wrapped up in some IR students doing approaches in the area and apparently he forgot about us. Nearing Lampassas VOR, his radio started breaking up and my gut feeling was realized. I tried calling him to ask for another freq, but he couldn't hear us anymore. I heard someone climbing out of SAT that was talking to them, so I asked them to relay a message. They did so and Approach said to try Ft. Worth Center on XXX.XX for that area. I called up Ft. Worth Center and they said "We've been looking for you." I said "We never got a handoff from SAT." He immediately handed us back to Gray App., and we were back in the system. Luckily, we were in VMC on top of a broken/scattered layer under us, so we could see any traffic that might have been an issue, but it still worries me that we 'fell through the cracks' like we did - I was filed and cleared IFR, and if I had been in the clouds, would have been at the mercy of the controller for traffic avoidance. The rest of the leg was uneventful. In-and-out of IMC with light precip and some light up/downdrafts in the tops of some mini-buildups at 9000'. Broke out at 3500' going into EOS, so yet another visual approach. Nice 50* crosswind with some mechanical turbulence from a line of trees parallel to the runway, but I made the best of it and felt pretty happy with the results.

After fuel-up at EOS, filed and got a mundane route for the last leg home (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N5274S/history/20080811/2020Z/KEOS/KAMW). Another visual into AMW and we're home.

12.4 hrs of High Performance/Complex/X-Country overall for the weekend with 4.0 of that loggable IFR. All of the time was 'in the system' navigating V-airways. Good practice and more experience gained.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I just realized I get to knock two more states off my 'map' -- Texas and Oklahoma! WOOHOO!!

 

[wsuffa]

We took it easy Saturday afternoon/evening - including a trip to Texas Pride BBQ outside of San Antonio. We were fairly underwhelmed. Dad and I have both been exploring the realms of smoking meats ourselves, and we've come to realize that we will never get 'good' BBQ at a restaurant again. Oh well.

SAT App. got wrapped up in some IR students doing approaches in the area and apparently he forgot about us. Nearing Lampassas VOR, his radio started breaking up and my gut feeling was realized. I tried calling him to ask for another freq, but he couldn't hear us anymore. I heard someone climbing out of SAT that was talking to them, so I asked them to relay a message. They did so and Approach said to try Ft. Worth Center on XXX.XX for that area. I called up Ft. Worth Center and they said "We've been looking for you." I said "We never got a handoff from SAT." He immediately handed us back to Gray App., and we were back in the system.

Sounds like a great trip - glad it worked out well. Your routing is about what I would have expected. CVB (Castroville) used to be T89, and used to be (may still be) a great fuel stop.

BBQ: There are three that are really good: Rudy's (slogan: "The Worst BBQ in Texas" but far from it), Busbee's in Bandera (look for the picture on the wall for the Flying J ranch that was taken in the 40's/50's), and The Salt Lick (near Austin).

SAT is usually very good about handoffs. Stuff like that happens - Houston Center forgot to hand me off to Albuquerque center one day - just look on the IFR chart, pick the likely frequency, and they'll help you. Going up that airway toward LLZ, it's a brief stint with Houston Center, then Gray Approach, then Ft. Worth for a brief bit, then Dallas Appr.

 

[CJones]

Sounds like a great trip - glad it worked out well. Your routing is about what I would have expected. CVB (Castroville) used to be T89, and used to be (may still be) a great fuel stop.

BBQ: There are three that are really good: Rudy's (slogan: "The Worst BBQ in Texas" but far from it), Busbee's in Bandera (look for the picture on the wall for the Flying J ranch that was taken in the 40's/50's), and The Salt Lick (near Austin).

SAT is usually very good about handoffs. Stuff like that happens - Houston Center forgot to hand me off to Albuquerque center one day - just look on the IFR chart, pick the likely frequency, and they'll help you. Going up that airway toward LLZ, it's a brief stint with Houston Center, then Gray Approach, then Ft. Worth for a brief bit, then Dallas Appr.

CVB was a nice stop. Nice runway. Plenty of tie-down space. Self-serve fuel (<$5/gal). Very nice 24-hr FBO facilities with computer (internet) weather access, lounge area, etc. It's probably ~20 min drive from my sister's place in NW San Antonio, but it's easy to get to along 410 and 90.

My parents had already visited Rudy's and Salt Lick. They said Salt Lick was pretty good. Rudy's was decent (better than Texas Pride at least). I haven't heard them talk about Busbee's though. The only reason we went to Texas Pride was because Guy Fieri (FoodNetwork) had been there. I'll have a hard time following Guy's advice from now on.

I'm not overly worried about the missed handoff. I realize how/why he got busy and I know how 'stuff happens'. Just hate when it happens to ME.

Thanks for the advice on the area. You were spot-on.

 

[wsuffa]

The only reason we went to Texas Pride was because Guy Fieri (FoodNetwork) had been there. I'll have a hard time following Guy's advice from now on.

Good TV is not always good food. (Take some of the places that Andrew Zimmern goes to as an example). Remember that the restaurants are getting great promotional benefit, so it's in their interest to be on best behavior.

I've been to a couple of the spots he's been to, some are great, some have better nearby. If it means anything, Rachael Ray has done a piece on the Salt Lick....

I've not been to Texas Pride - Casey's is OK if they're still around, Grady's is so-so, County Line is, well, average chain-style, and Bill Miller's is the McDonalds of BBQ (though I will say that I like their chicken fried chicken).

If you're in the mood for Mexican food, my favorite is La Fonda on Main. THere are plenty of other good ones, too.