KPHX VFR Transition Route

[CC268]

Hey guys,

So last night I did my first cross country night flight from KSDL to KMZJ. My instructor had me use the VFR transition route over Sky Harbor (KPHX). On the way to KMZJ I didn't have too much trouble getting clearance for it from PHX Approach (although I did have to make the call twice).

However, on the way back it was crazy - there was one guy working four frequencies and he was jam packed (he must be a legend in the ATC community). I told my instructor I was going to cold call him (Phoenix Approach, Skyhawk 1234D, VFR request) because he was so busy. So I called him once...didn't hear anything for several minutes (meanwhile I am doing some 360s so I don't enter the airspace...again called him with the same thing...no response...so finally my instructor called and said (Phoenix Approach, Skyhawk 1234D, transition to Scottsdale with the weather). My instructor said this at break neck speeds - I can't talk really fast like that yet. He answered within a few seconds.

So why didn't he ever respond to me? Was the cold call not appropriate? My instructor thinks that maybe because he was so busy he just sort of ignored the cold call (he said sometimes they don't like that because they have so much to keep track of that they just sort of move onto the next guy). My instructor said that sometimes in cases like that it is best to just say your request.

Glad my instructor was there...not sure what I would have done if I was by myself...I would be skeptical about flying around the airspace at night if I hadn't planned for it (don't want to fly into a mountain, etc). It was pretty nerve racking...its like playing tee ball and getting thrown straight into the major leagues talking to those guys.

Also...how the hell do you know when to call him up with so much going on? It's really like there is no good time to call him up.

So...what do you guys think?

 

[CC268]

The controller was probably just busy. I have found that PHX TRACON is very accommodating and wants to help. Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong.

If the frequency is congested, give call sign and say "Request"

If activity is relatively slow, then give who, where, altitude, and what you want in initial callup. Be ready to write down squawk code immediately (or if able just punch it into transponder) and then ident once entered if requested. Try to keep the "where" relative to major landmarks or Navaids. Ex. 5 southeast Firebird Lake. 10 north Deer Valley. 10 south Willie. Omit all unnecessary words like "miles" or prepositions etc. Make sure you know exactly what you want when you call, especially final altitude. Brevity and clarity is key.

I mean...that is very similar to what I did though?

 

[CC268]

Don't overthink it. You are learning and your instructor was there to help. Listen to your instructor for tips to improve your comm skills. Soon enough, ATC communications will just roll off your tongue. What ever you do, don't let the communication aspect intimidate you. ATC really does want to help and its a service you should use to your advantage.

I was afraid he might say "get out of here you little Cessna! This is for the big boys onlyyyy!"

 

[Shawn]

Simple...look at the entirety of your call up vs the instructor call up. Controller was busy and in his mind your call up would require probably a few back and forths to get all the info which he probably did not have time for...hence being ignored. Your instructor's call up however only need a simple response of "cleared as requested" from ATC and could move on.

I just had this happen recently in SFO Bravo. It was busy and I heard another VFR pilot that was rambling and inconcise told to stay clear of Bravo (not that you were rambling, but in both cases the call would take up valuable airtime and attention)...so my call was "Nor Cal, Skylane 123XY request Bravo Clearance transition to Watsonville 3500' west and north of 280" (which is the clearance they would have to read back to you as part of the Bravo Clearance)...got an immediate "Cleared as requested"

How much to blurt out when is something that you learn by doing...that is one reason I advocate using FF as MUCH as possible...to learn the radio work and its quirks. If you know you are gonna transition airspace, being on FF well ahead of time can be a lot easier than showing up on their busy doorstep and asking for permission by the busiest controller vs just getting a handoff with a clearance as you found out.

 

[James331]

Simple...look at the entirety of your call up vs the instructor call up. Controller was busy and in his mind your call up would require probably a few back and forths to get all the info which he probably did not have time for...hence being ignored. Your instructor's call up however only need a simple response of "cleared as requested" from ATC and could move on.

I just had this happen recently in SFO Bravo. It was busy and I heard another VFR pilot that was rambling and inconcise told to stay clear of Bravo (not that you were rambling, but in both cases the call would take up valuable airtime and attention)...so my call was "Nor Cal, Skylane 123XY request Bravo Clearance transition to Watsonville 3500' west and north of 280" (which is the clearance they would have to read back to you as part of the Bravo Clearance)...got an immediate "Cleared as requested"

How much to blurt out when is something that you learn by doing...that is one reason I advocate using FF as MUCH as possible...to learn the radio work and its quirks. If you know you are gonna transition airspace, being on FF well ahead of time can be a lot easier than showing up on their busy doorstep and asking for permission by the busiest controller vs just getting a handoff with a clearance as you found out.

That.

 

[CC268]

Thanks guys that makes sense.

 

[CT4ME]

Phoenix tries to accommodate Bravo requests, but does have a reputation for "sometimes" ignoring requests from light traffic. They've been better since the investigation associated with the Superstition crash from a few years back. Rather than denying requests, which was what they were accused of, they may delay responding, or ask you to try back in 10-15 minutes. Of course, most pilots will take the hint and take another path. I'm guessing they don't count those incidents. Start calling from a ways out, be quick, and be persistent.

 

[CC268]

Thanks for the info...yea I remember that superstition crash that was horrible...what was the cause of that crash anyways?

 

[Palmpilot]

Thanks for the info...yea I remember that superstition crash that was horrible...what was the cause of that crash anyways?

From the NTSB report, according to his brother, the pilot at the controls was in the habit of selecting a direct route to his destination once airborne. That doesn't work too well at night in the presence of mountainous terrain.

 

[CT4ME]

As PIC, the burden goes to the pilot... however serious contributing factors were: Moonless night, Screwed up Class Bravo space that puts pilots precariously close to an unlit peak, ATC that often (at that time) refused entrance to class Bravo space, and no warning from FFZ controllers that terrain is in the aircraft's immediate departing path.

 

[Pilawt]

Here's what he hit. The top of the highest peak is 5,057' MSL; floor of Class Bravo is 5,000 until you get to within four miles of the peak.

 

[azpilot]

I am glad you guys eventually got the clearance through the Bravo. It's also very good practice for you. It is something that I want to get more familiar with and need to work on. I have only done the Bravo transition once, and that was with my instructor during flight training.

On the other hand, if by some horrible turn of events you couldn't get the Bravo transition, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to get up to KSDL from KMZJ.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.413168...21&zoom=4&fpl= KMZJ IWA KFFZ 3334N11146W KSDL

You could track the KIWA VOR in, transition the KFFZ airspace and then head over to KSDL. The bravo floor is 4000' in that whole path. It's actually the more direct route as well. But like I said, the Bravo transition is great practice. I wish I was more comfortable with it.

 

[Skip Miller]

I was afraid he might say "get out of here you little Cessna! This is for the big boys onlyyyy!"

They wouldn't waste the air time if they are really busy.

Keep your call very short and to the point. I was approaching the airport for landing and couldn't get a word in edgewise (regional fly in in progress). So I made this call three times before I was acknowledged (for entry into Class D). Westbound runways were favored: "CherokeennnnAcirclingfoureastlandingCharlie" The response
"nnnnAmakestraightinapproachrunway26call at2miles"

 

[CC268]

From the NTSB report, according to his brother, the pilot at the controls was in the habit of selecting a direct route to his destination once airborne. That doesn't work too well at night in the presence of mountainous terrain.

Wow...seems like such a stupid move

 

[danhagan]

Phoenix tries to accommodate Bravo requests, but does have a reputation for "sometimes" ignoring requests from light traffic. They've been better since the investigation associated with the Superstition crash from a few years back. Rather than denying requests, which was what they were accused of, they may delay responding, or ask you to try back in 10-15 minutes. Of course, most pilots will take the hint and take another path.

My experiences with PHX APP have all been BAD (12 RT flights or 24 "meetings" with PHX APP). Every case involved a FF handoff from center to them (both directions El Paso-Fullerton). I was literally dropped immediately after center FF hand-off. On the last occasion I was asked to change heading (adding at least 10-15 minutes to the trip) to accommodate their inbounds (SW of PHX direct to GILA first, then on course). Nearing GILA I was told I was out of their area and they attempted a kick to VFR (I reminded them they put me there and they relented). On the other drops, I'd get put back into the system by ABQ center and every time ABQ would remark that that was normal operating procedures for the PHX APP guys.

Wow...seems like such a stupid move

They were the owners of an avionics repair place with an exceptional reputation. The guy flew to PHX a lot at night and made a mistake which posters here and the red board always point out to make it seem he's an idiot. I believe he was told standby for Class B clearance after departing. Yes he obviously made a mistake, and he paid for it. He was probably used to getting cleared due to it being night time easier than day. I haven't flown that area in over a year, but PHX APP was HORRIBLE before.

 

[CC268]

Wow that is too bad...guess I will keep that in mind when dealing with PHX APP

 

[Timbeck2]

The PHX approach guy last weekend was a real douchbag.

"Cherokee five five Juliet are you able to climb to one zero thousand?"
"Affirmative"
*silence*
"Do you want us to start the climb to one zero thousand?"
"If I wanted you to start the climb I'd tell you to start the climb."

that and several similar comments to other pilots.

 

[MAKG1]

Wow...seems like such a stupid move

It would be fine if he either knew he could get B clearance, or had a backup plan. Sadly, neither was the case.

5000 feet isn't that high if you know it's there. There is a BIG valley to climb in.

I insist on 2000 over terrain at night.