KORH ILS 29 with GTN 750

[benyflyguy]

Buddy of mine flew up to KORH. They were IMC and using runway 29.
He has a GTN 750. They gave him vectors to the FAF SPAGS. So he loads the approach and selects vectors. And the magenta line goes from FAF to KORH. He selected no to course reversal. But the leg activated was KORH —> SPAGS. No magenta line from where he was to the FAF.
He flew over the FAF and it didn’t activate the next leg. He didn’t like how the GPS wasn’t following his plan.
He knew he was flying an ILS and the gps was there for guidance only. But as he said he likes everything matching.
We hopped in his plane afterward and played with the GPS. At first I thought it was because the gps wanted him to fly the hold- but he selected no to that.
I pulled up the chart and noticed that this approach the IAF also serves as the FAF. And while he was cleared to the FAF the gps I think wanted to fly to the IAF first

To make it look right, we played and we figured out activating the next leg was the key to RWY29.
It seemed odd that he would not get course guidance from where he was to the FAF initially.
I don’t know a lot about that GPS. I have a ole 430w. But I know you guys play with some of this stuff.

 

[Squirrelfury]

I think that there's a lot of confusion going on here. I'm going to question several statements separately ...

They gave him vectors to the FAF SPAGS.

That doesn't sound right. He could get "vectors to the final approach course", or he could have gotten "direct to SPAGS", but "vectors to an intersection" -- especially one that's a Final Approach Fix -- doesn't sound like a valid instruction. It'd help if you could tell us what his actual approach clearance was.

So he loads the approach and selects vectors. And the magenta line goes from FAF to KORH. He selected no to course reversal.

That doesn't sound right either. If he actually selected the "Vectors to Final" transition, then the navigator should have displayed the magenta active course line beginning at SPAGS and extending away from the airport. He should not have been given an option for a course reversal on a "Vectors to Final" transition. I think that he actually selected the "SPAGS transition" -- not the "Vectors to Final" transition.

And while he was cleared to the FAF the gps I think wanted to fly to the IAF first

If, in fact, the transition that was selected in the navigator was "SPAGS" and not "Vectors to Final", then I think you're right. His first crossing of SPAGS was as the Initial Approach Fix, and the course reversal was required. The only way the course reversal wouldn't be required is if his clearance read, "Cleared ILS 29 Approach straight in ...". (But ... I still don't think that even a straight-in approach clearance should begin AT the FAF. He should have been vectored instead to the final approach course a mile or more outside of the FAF.)

 

[bflynn]

I pulled this up on my 750 emulator and found that without having a defined flight plan, Load Procedure or even Load and Activate does not give you a course from your current position to SPAGS. In fact, Garmin will assume that you are flying straight in and represents the arrival course origination from somewhere down near Plymouth. What it should do is a matter of opinion.

As you discovered, the answer is to select SPAGS in the flight plan, press the D direct button to the right, then press the onscreen Activate button. That will add the missing leg to get you to the waypoint. I assume though that if you were getting vectors, that they were direct vectors or else programming a gps is pretty moot.

My memory of playing with the GPS in air is that if you had the approach loaded but not activated, it should have asked if you want to activate it when you arrived at SPAGS. Otherwise it should already be part of the flight plan and it’s just the next leg.

Was there a specific question?

 

[PaulS]

I've flown that approach many times. You can't fly to Spags and not do the procedure turn, because Spag's is the FAF. If they were vectoring him to final they would have taken him a few miles east of spags, turned him to intercept the final approach course and cleared him from there, then the gps would have sequenced as expected if set up correctly. The gps won't sequence the approach if you don't fly it correctly. Sounds like he didn't activate vectors to final OR he was not on the final approach course before he got to Spags, so the gps didn't sequence. You can't intercept at the final approach fix and fly the approach without doing the PT.

The Worcester tower does not have radar, so they have no idea where you are on the approach, they ask you to report the FAF, Spag's, typically Bradley doesn't hand you off until you are established on final.

Something was really messed up.

 

[benyflyguy]

I’m sorry he was in

I think that there's a lot of confusion going on here. I'm going to question several statements separately ...



That doesn't sound right. He could get "vectors to the final approach course", or he could have gotten "direct to SPAGS", but "vectors to an intersection" -- especially one that's a Final Approach Fix -- doesn't sound like a valid instruction. It'd help if you could tell us what his actual approach clearance was.




That doesn't sound right either. If he actually selected the "Vectors to Final" transition, then the navigator should have displayed the magenta active course line beginning at SPAGS and extending away from the airport. He should not have been given an option for a course reversal on a "Vectors to Final" transition. I think that he actually selected the "SPAGS transition" -- not the "Vectors to Final" transition.




If, in fact, the transition that was selected in the navigator was "SPAGS" and not "Vectors to Final", then I think you're right. His first crossing of SPAGS was as the Initial Approach Fix, and the course reversal was required. The only way the course reversal wouldn't be required is if his clearance read, "Cleared ILS 29 Approach straight in ...". (But ... I still don't think that even a straight-in approach clearance should begin AT the FAF. He should have been vectored instead to the final approach course a mile or more outside of the FAF.)

im sorry. He indeed did get vectors to the final approach course. Not direct to the FAF.

I think he may have hit direct SPAGS as an IAF. Which on his GPS it actually differentiates the SPAGS IAF and the SPAGS FAF.

We plan on going up and shooting that approach as a practice to iron out the details and get it right.

In the end it’s an ILS and if he got vectors to the final approach course magenta lines aren’t really important. At least that was my thought.

But the weather was down pretty good and if he was to go missed you’d want the GPS to not be f-ing around with wrong legs. It’s nice to be able to to missed with the touch of a button. Not having to play around with the flightplan

 

[PaulS]

If I'm in doubt, I ask them if I am getting vectors to final, I suspect your friend was cleared to Spags, in which case he wasn't being vectored to final.

 

[PaulS]

I’m sorry he was in

im sorry. He indeed did get vectors to the final approach course. Not direct to the FAF.

I think he may have hit direct SPAGS as an IAF. Which on his GPS it actually differentiates the SPAGS IAF and the SPAGS FAF.

We plan on going up and shooting that approach as a practice to iron out the details and get it right.

In the end it’s an ILS and if he got vectors to the final approach course magenta lines aren’t really important. At least that was my thought.

But the weather was down pretty good and if he was to go missed you’d want the GPS to not be f-ing around with wrong legs. It’s nice to be able to to missed with the touch of a button. Not having to play around with the flightplan

If you forget to hit Vectors to final, then it doesn't work correctly when you are vtf. Been there, done that.

Edit, vtf gives you the magenta line from the FAF out.

 

[benyflyguy]

If I'm in doubt, I ask them if I am getting vectors to final, I suspect your friend was cleared to Spags, in which case he wasn't being vectored to final.

I brought the turn up with him. I mentioned that the chart has a bold line so your expected to fly it. I asked when he crossed SPAGS did a procedure turn line pop up?
He did say that there were four others coming in with him at that time so Bradley was vectoring them to final approach course for straight in approach.

 

[PaulS]

I brought the turn up with him. I mentioned that the chart has a bold line so your expected to fly it. I asked when he crossed SPAGS did a procedure turn line pop up?
He did say that there were four others coming in with him at that time so Bradley was vectoring them to final approach course for straight in approach.

Yes, that's VTF, he needed to put the gps in vectors to final mode. At the end of the day though, he could have just gone manual and intercept the localizer then flown it in. Probably caught him by surprise.

 

[benyflyguy]

Yes, that's VTF, he needed to put the gps in vectors to final mode. At the end of the day though, he could have just gone manual and intercept the localizer then flown it in. Probably caught him by surprise.

That’s what he did. The lesson I take away is that he’s not content with just landing and moving on. He wants to figure out what went wrong and fix it and do it right. He flew the airplane, fortunately on the ILS getting vectored. But had same thing happened on a GPS approach he might have had to go missed as the glideslope might not have picked up correctly.- (I’ve done that when Ive loaded approach early and then get vectors to final and forget there’s a procedure turn the GPS is planning me on flying).

 

[BillTIZ]

You can load the approach, but you also have to activate the approach. Sounds like everything was fine in the set up, but not activated.

 

[PaulS]

That’s what he did. The lesson I take away is that he’s not content with just landing and moving on. He wants to figure out what went wrong and fix it and do it right. He flew the airplane, fortunately on the ILS getting vectored. But had same thing happened on a GPS approach he might have had to go missed as the glideslope might not have picked up correctly.- (I’ve done that when Ive loaded approach early and then get vectors to final and forget there’s a procedure turn the GPS is planning me on flying).

I don't blame him, I'd want to figure it out too. I think Bill may be on to something below, you do have to activate the approach, you do it when they clear you for the approach, if you forget, it doesn't sequence.

You can load the approach, but you also have to activate the approach. Sounds like everything was fine in the set up, but not activated.

 

[BillTIZ]

I don't blame him, I'd want to figure it out too. I think Bill may be on to something below, you do have to activate the approach, you do it when they clear you for the approach, if you forget, it doesn't sequence.

I just flew the ILS 12R approaches to VGT, North Las Vegas NV with the GTN750. Once I am on vectors, I make sure the approach is selected, vectors option, load and activate. The display then shows all of the approach on the display, but the magenta leg is FAF to the airport and the next fix that it is navigating to is the FAF. In my case “Kigge”, everything before Kigge is white on the display. The GTN750 will also put the ILS freq active in NAV, and if you have not already selected VOR, it will prompt and should change from GPS to VOR in the CDI display when you progress past the FAF. I always verify that the GTN sequences on the approach. It will give a next heading warning and countdown to the FAF and any step down fixes (localizer).

It will go into suspend mode for the initial part of the missed approach until you are ready to force the sequencing.

 

[luvflyin]

Buddy of mine flew up to KORH. They were IMC and using runway 29.
He has a GTN 750. They gave him vectors to the FAF SPAGS. So he loads the approach and selects vectors. And the magenta line goes from FAF to KORH. He selected no to course reversal. But the leg activated was KORH —> SPAGS. No magenta line from where he was to the FAF.
He flew over the FAF and it didn’t activate the next leg. He didn’t like how the GPS wasn’t following his plan.
He knew he was flying an ILS and the gps was there for guidance only. But as he said he likes everything matching.
We hopped in his plane afterward and played with the GPS. At first I thought it was because the gps wanted him to fly the hold- but he selected no to that.
I pulled up the chart and noticed that this approach the IAF also serves as the FAF. And while he was cleared to the FAF the gps I think wanted to fly to the IAF first

To make it look right, we played and we figured out activating the next leg was the key to RWY29.
It seemed odd that he would not get course guidance from where he was to the FAF initially.
I don’t know a lot about that GPS. I have a ole 430w. But I know you guys play with some of this stuff.

CFLSR

 

[luvflyin]

That’s what he did. The lesson I take away is that he’s not content with just landing and moving on. He wants to figure out what went wrong and fix it and do it right. He flew the airplane, fortunately on the ILS getting vectored. But had same thing happened on a GPS approach he might have had to go missed as the glideslope might not have picked up correctly.- (I’ve done that when Ive loaded approach early and then get vectors to final and forget there’s a procedure turn the GPS is planning me on flying).

Probably wouldn’t have happened on the GPS Approach, the RNAV(GPS) RWY 29. It has ‘segements’ outside of SPAGS, WHYBE>DEWEE and DEWEE>SPAGS. DEWEE is an IF and should accommodate ‘straight-in’ sequencing to SPAGS and then the MAP. The ILS or LOC RWY 29 has no ‘segements’ outside of SPAGS which is an IAF. But CFLSR, which is not really a ‘fix’ should accommodate straight-in sequencing after SPAGS.

 

[Maxnr]

Buddy of mine flew up to KORH. They were IMC and using runway 29.
He has a GTN 750. They gave him vectors to the FAF SPAGS. So he loads the approach and selects vectors. And the magenta line goes from FAF to KORH. He selected no to course reversal. But the leg activated was KORH —> SPAGS. No magenta line from where he was to the FAF.
He flew over the FAF and it didn’t activate the next leg. He didn’t like how the GPS wasn’t following his plan.
He knew he was flying an ILS and the gps was there for guidance only. But as he said he likes everything matching.
We hopped in his plane afterward and played with the GPS. At first I thought it was because the gps wanted him to fly the hold- but he selected no to that.
I pulled up the chart and noticed that this approach the IAF also serves as the FAF. And while he was cleared to the FAF the gps I think wanted to fly to the IAF first

To make it look right, we played and we figured out activating the next leg was the key to RWY29.
It seemed odd that he would not get course guidance from where he was to the FAF initially.
I don’t know a lot about that GPS. I have a ole 430w. But I know you guys play with some of this stuff.

Sounds normal. The Garmin 530 works the same way. I wouldn't over think it.

 

[N1120A]

The 650/750 won't delete out the initial segments, like the 430/530 will, but will activate only the final leg. You can manually activate the other legs, if needed, but you'll need to load back up holds, course reversals oo the like .