Knuckleheads in California try to self-deport pilot-trainee

[Everskyward]

I’m not sure you really want FAA or any “people further up the ladder” deporting the poor dear student who’s just “living the dream”, do you?

I don't want the FAA deporting the student. I would like oversight of the schools if they are allowing students to solo without proper a understanding of ATC if the communications problems lead to violations or a safety hazard. The FAA has authority to shut the school down if they don't comply.

 

[Everskyward]

Kidnapped? On the mellow drama,

You're a fine one to talk about drama when you bring up my fictional family being killed in a midair.

 

[James331]

No I would't. I don't believe in vigilantism.

Lol, so it's not the actions of lack of actions that bother you, it's the lack of a little tin badge, Ahhhh, well how abut if someone with a badge did the same thing, they'd be a hero! Lol

 

[Everskyward]

Also what are you going to tell the FAA, no FARs have been broken until someone is pressured to let the little dodo bird loose and he gets himself and/or others killed.

They aren't a hazard until they are on their own. So I wouldn't do anything in that case.

 

[Everskyward]

Lol, so it's not the actions of lack of actions that bother you, it's the lack of a little tin badge, Ahhhh, well how abut if someone with a badge did the same thing, they'd be a hero! Lol

It has to do with going through proper channels. We are only talking about possible bad ATC communication here, not something that needs to be dealt with immediately.

 

[denverpilot]

I don't want the FAA deporting the student. I would like oversight of the schools if they are allowing students to solo without proper a understanding of ATC if the communications problems lead to violations or a safety hazard. The FAA has authority to shut the school down if they don't comply.

There’s no evidence that’s happened at all at this school.

It’s likely it’s happening at ALL of them, just listening to the radio at any airport with one of these schools at it, but it’s not really the root cause of this kidnapping problem or a solution to it.

And clearly FAA doesn’t care. All they’d need to do if they did was listen to LiveATC and their own controllers at KDVT any weekday to cite all sorts of people for signing off on English proficiency.

And really most of these schools are simply taking other language professionals documentation and citing that as their basis for the English proficiency. Student walks in with a piece of paper the FAA recognizes as them knowing “enough” English, school files the paperwork and gets on with attempting to teach flying.

It’s not their job to teach English in the current system. FAA doesn’t even say it is. FAA says they’re supposed to not sign the student off for solo flight, but is there any evidence this poor student has even soloed? I haven’t seen anything that says they have in any of the articles on this event.

I think this is a case of the never ending student who will never solo. And FAA doesn’t care about that in the slightest, as long as there’s always a CFI on board to handle the radios. No safety issue whatsoever and no regs broken.

 

[Everskyward]

You added that regs have been broken after I quoted your post @Everskyward.

What reg has been broken? Student hasn’t been signed off for a certificate anywhere that I see.

Training can last forever and the FAA doesn’t care. Not a regulatory problem at all.

That was only a hypothetical. I don't think the FAA needs to do anything if no regs are broken.

If the student was not solo and did not break regs, that I don't think any action was necessary at all; not by the FAA and not by the CFIs in the story.

 

[James331]

It has to do with going through proper channels. We are only talking about possible bad ATC communication here, not something that needs to be dealt with immediately.

Ahh so if THE EXACT same thing was carried about by someone with a badge and a ton of paperwork was generated and they were lad with your tax dollars, you'd be cool with it

You understand that makes zero sense right? Lol

the student was not solo and did not break regs, that I don't think any action was necessary at all; not by the FAA and not by the CFIs in the story.

If the dude is in this country to learn to fly, and is unable to progress, he no longer has a reason to be in the country, reapply for a tourist visa maybe, but aside from that I'd rather them not be able to try to shop flight schools until they find someone to push them through like that Asian woman who killed herself in the 152.

 

[Everskyward]

Ahh so if THE EXACT same thing was carried about by someone with a badge and a ton of paperwork was generated and they were lad with your tax dollars, you'd be cool with it

I would probably not be cool with the exact same thing done by officials. But I definitely don't think it should have been done by people with no authority to do so.

 

[denverpilot]

That was only a hypothetical. I don't think the FAA needs to do anything if no regs are broken.

If the student was not solo and did not break regs, that I don't think any action was necessary at all; not by the FAA and not by the CFIs in the story.

You ignored the bad contract. If they do nothing, no one gets paid and the school goes under.

Not saying they’re morally or legally right, but not a surprise they tried to get Elmer Fudd to go home. None whatsoever.

Probably twenty or more student payments all being held up by one student who’ll never make it in their system, and nowhere near enough money or resources to ever get that student to pass anything.

But you did go from saying you had a solution to saying you had none, which is correct.

Don’t think the article writers quite understand yet or don’t want to share what the real triggering event was for this one. Probably never will. It’s very likely to be the story of a business about to fail and tens of thousands of dollars, maybe even hundreds, that the Chinese sponsors managed to just steal via the terms of the contract.

Assuming that the theory and story from the guy who says he worked for such a place (and the similar story from a personal friend who also did) hold up — as what really happens when you do business with the Chinese in the aviation training business... anyway.

The good news is, the pilot shortage finally caught up with the US carriers and these schools don’t really even have to bother accepting such ridiculous contract terms anymore.

There will always be low end schools that think they can do it, just like the low end schools that take US students money up front and eventually the students show up one day and the doors are locked and they don’t get their pre-paid money back.

Repetitive story in flight training in America. All driven by people’s desperation to get from 0 to 1500 hours.

 

[denverpilot]

I would probably not be cool with the exact same thing done by officials. But I definitely don't think it should have been done by people with no authority to do so.

In this case, nobody has the authority to do it. Student has a legal visa, school goes bankrupt if they stay. Contract is solid.

There’s no authority whatsoever that’s interested in this case.

Just business operators desperate and hoping they could convince a kid to just go home. Should have had a washout provision in their contract but they likely didn’t.

There’s no authority interested in their business failing for a bad contract, they’re it. They made a bad call, but the outcome for the business is still the same.

Now they’ll also have a criminal record, which was the part they didn’t think through far enough.

 

[Everskyward]

You ignored the bad contract. If they do nothing, no one gets paid and the school goes under.

The bad contract is the school's problem, and by extension, the students' and staff's problem. It happens all the time.

But you did go from saying you had a solution to saying you had none, which is correct.

There is a solution. The schools should be responsible and come up with a program to make sure their students are proficient in aviation English. It people, businesses, and institutions acted more responsibly, there wouldn't be the need for new regulations.

 

[GreatLakesFlying]

There’s not a regulatory agency that would touch the situation with a ten foot pole, since the student is doing nothing wrong, and the assumption they didn’t try numerous “other ways” is probably also false. stage.

While hardly a regulatory agency, the State Department could and would have revoked the individual's student visa, if the school had dismissed him as a student and reported the dismissal to the SEVIS system.

Once your student visa is revoked, you can either go home or stay in the country illegally. It is improbable for aliens overstaying their visas to continue practicing as student pilots [in the US].

So there is at least one way.

 

[denverpilot]

While hardly a regulatory agency, the State Department could and would have revoked the individual's student visa, if the school had dismissed him as a student and reported the dismissal to the SEVIS system.

Once your student visa is revoked, you can either go home or stay in the country illegally. It is improbable for aliens overstaying their visas to continue practicing as student pilots [in the US].

So there is at least one way.

Not effective.

Who’d come evict the student from student housing even if one had such paperwork completed, which would likely take at least a year to obtain?

School would be dead and gone before that process worked.

And again, I’m going to assert that it’s quite likely the desperate people already tried that route.

There’s no indication yet that they didn’t or hadn’t been down that path before with a different student.

We aren’t getting the full story. People don’t kidnap their own students while trying to get them to go home, unless they’re completely out of options.

Assuming they’re desperate to save their company is far more likely than assuming they haven’t already tried something other than bodily tossing someone on an international flight.

 

[Everskyward]

Assuming they’re desperate to save their company is far more likely than assuming they haven’t already tried something other than bodily tossing someone on an international flight.

It seems like you are assuming these people owned the company. I don't read the article that way. Besides, the company is IASCO, which has been around for a long time and is a large company.

Jonathan McConkey, a pilot and certified flight instructor, is accused of orchestrating the kidnapping with his assistant, Kelsi Hoser, a ground instructor. Both reportedly worked at the IASCO Flight Training school in Redding, Calif.

 

[GreatLakesFlying]

Who’d come evict the student from student housing even if one had such paperwork completed, which would likely take at least a year to obtain?

What was the objective here? To disqualify the student from further training or to kick him out of the apartment? Based on the news reports, the school had not dismissed the student, simply grounded him.

Maybe he was told to spend more time in the library than in the cockpit. Who knows. It seems that at the time of the alleged kidnapping, he was a bona fide student at the school.

I agree that we don't have the complete picture. By the time the other side has a chance to present their story few of us will have any interest in this sad affair.

In general, however, school personnel at most colleges do not show up at residence halls in the evening, to forcibly remove students and drive them to municipal airports. I understand that IASCO is not a college per se, but there is still no excuse for such thuggish behavior.

In the 3 times during my academic career that I had to evict a student from a dorm, after the college exhausted all reasonable avenues over a period of months, we had to summon the campus police who in their turn requested the presence of the local PD as well for the removal.

 

[denverpilot]

The bad contract is the school's problem, and by extension, the students' and staff's problem. It happens all the time.

There is a solution. The schools should be responsible and come up with a program to make sure their students are proficient in aviation English.

Not if the contract doesn’t pay enough to hire English teachers.

Again, not a solution that works prior to the business going under.

I don’t know of any established language teaching companies set up to teach specialized tech jargon English in a business setting, who’ll accept typical CFI pay. You?

Most business sectors pay instructors of any sort way better than aviation does.

I could see where an aviation school could be naive enough to think they could just tell someone who can’t hack it to go home and not realize the implications for a student returning to a society where that could destroy not just the student, but their entire family politically and monetarily.

I could also see them trusting the State government approved certificate that most of them use to define whether someone can enroll in their coursework and understands enough English to learn aviation jargon.

What are they doing to do? Sue their State for losses incurred because the certificate was wrong? Good luck with that. Another path to bankruptcy.

It’s not really something that “happens all the time” when you consider all of the circumstances. In fact, it’s probably something that happens so little that trying to force someone to go home seemed a better option than all others, or they wouldn’t have done it.

 

[Everskyward]

Not if the contract doesn’t pay enough to hire English teachers.

Again, not a solution that works prior to the business going under.

I don’t know of any established language teaching companies set up to teach specialized tech jargon English in a business setting, who’ll accept typical CFI pay. You?

Most business sectors pay instructors of any sort way better than aviation does.

I could see where an aviation school could be naive enough to think they could just tell someone who can’t hack it to go home and not realize the implications for a student returning to a society where that could destroy not just the student, but their entire family politically and monetarily.

I could also see them trusting the State government approved certificate that most of them use to define whether someone can enroll in their coursework and understands enough English to learn aviation jargon.

What are they doing to do? Sue their State for losses incurred because the certificate was wrong? Good luck with that. Another path to bankruptcy.

It’s not really something that “happens all the time” when you consider all of the circumstances. In fact, it’s probably something that happens so little that trying to force someone to go home seemed a better option than all others, or they wouldn’t have done it.

I'm not sure why you keep going back to the school going bankrupt. As I noted much earlier in the thread, IASCO has been around since at least the 1980s. They specialize in training foreign students, mostly from Asia. As I also noted, someone suggested I apply to IASCO. It was in the mid-1980s. As I remember, they paid flight instructors more than the typical flight school. Quite a bit more.

 

[denverpilot]

What was the objective here? To disqualify the student from further training or to kick him out of the apartment? Based on the news reports, the school had not dismissed the student, simply grounded him.

Maybe he was told to spend more time in the library than in the cockpit. Who knows. It seems that at the time of the alleged kidnapping, he was a bona fide student at the school.

I agree that we don't have the complete picture. By the time the other side has a chance to present their story few of us will have any interest in this sad affair.

In general, however, school personnel at most colleges do not show up at residence halls in the evening, to forcibly remove students and drive them to municipal airports. I understand that IASCO is not a college per se, but there is still no excuse for such thuggish behavior.

In the 3 times during my academic career that I had to evict a student from a dorm, after the college exhausted all reasonable avenues over a period of months, we had to summon the campus police who in their turn requested the presence of the local PD as well for the removal.

It’s highly unlikely they have any “campus police” at this place. It’s nice you had some, but this isn’t a school, this is a private business and training facility.

They likely had no legal recourse whatsoever under our laws as far as eviction goes. As long as the sponsor holds a contract that says they’ll pay when certain training goals are met, police wouldn’t do a single thing. This is not the situation you were working under, legally.

And we all know the grounding was likely that no instructor wanted to put their ticket on the line anymore for this student. The owners, or management, or whatever they were, we’re probably already well past that stage of the game and the instructors probably had banded together and said they wouldn’t fly anymore with the student. Not worth their ticket.

Even if the school went under, they’d spend their time flying with other students and building their time to GTFO just like the guy I knew who worked for a similar place.

Never heard of anyone touting any of these places as their long term plan for a job in aviation.

Simple answer is usually correct: Student was grounded because nobody wanted to fly with the student anymore and found it to be an utter waste of their time because they knew they could never sign the student off to solo.

Don’t even really need to say it’s about the English, and it may not be. The student may have simply been that bad at flying.

Even SuperCFIs with red capsules can’t teach everyone. And most of us aren’t SuperCFIs. At a place like that, many don’t even want to be a CFI, really. They just want the flight time.

Harsh, but we all know it’s true. I can’t imagine the place has any CFIs who’ve been there more than a couple of years. A couple in semi-management roles anyway, who are probably the desperate ones who did this.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm not sure why you keep going back to the school going bankrupt. As I noted much earlier in the thread, IASCO has been around since at least the 1980s. They specialize in training foreign students, mostly from Asia. As I also noted, someone suggested I apply to IASCO. It was in the mid-1980s. As I remember, they paid flight instructors more than the typical flight school. Quite a bit more.

Because someone shared elsewhere that the current contracts aren’t anywhere close to what was going on in the 80s, as did a friend who was briefly involved in similar training at another school.

The working theory is that the typical contract has either penalties or complete stop payments in it if any ONE student can’t pass checkrides/milestones.

If that’s not the case, or something very similar, I’d be very surprised.

Tempted to go look at Glassdoor for IASCO. Could help confirm the general mindset of the place.

 

[denverpilot]

Hahaha. First post on Glassdoor from a current CFI at the Redding location...

“Students are forced to come here from a communist country. They do not want to learn.”

Aww yeah. Sounds great. LOL.

 

[Everskyward]

And we all know the grounding was likely that no instructor wanted to put their ticket on the line anymore for this student. The owners, or management, or whatever they were, we’re probably already well past that stage of the game and the instructors probably had banded together and said they wouldn’t fly anymore with the student. Not worth their ticket.

Not worth their ticket, but worth getting arrested for kidnapping.

Also, from what I am reading, the instructors acted on their own, not in behalf of the school. Here is the police report linked in the first article. Yeah, I know it's Facebook, but it's the Redding Police's page.

https://www.facebook.com/ReddingPolice/posts/1685281324888554

 

[Everskyward]

Hahaha. First post on Glassdoor from a current CFI at the Redding location...

“Students are forced to come here from a communist country. They do not want to learn.”

Aww yeah. Sounds great. LOL.

They get at 3.3 out of 5. You can read all the reviews here. Not all of them are negative, but they do mention the language problem with Chinese students. They also mention the good pay.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/jobs....=iasco&sc.keyword=iasco&locT=&locId=&jobType=

 

[GreatLakesFlying]

And we all know the grounding was likely that no instructor wanted to put their ticket on the line anymore for this student.

One of the two instructors who took the matter in their hands holds an ATP. I'd be curious to see how he deals with block 18w on his 8500-8. If not during his AME visit next month, definitely during the December one. (Block 18w is about history of nontraffic convictions, either misdemeanors or felonies).

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Ahh so if THE EXACT same thing was carried about by someone with a badge and a ton of paperwork was generated and they were lad with your tax dollars,

One would have hoped that if that were the case, there would be a reason.

 

[James331]

One would have hoped that if that were the case, there would be a reason.

Dude sucked at flying, was only in the country to learn to fly, was a smoking hole waiting to happen...

 

[denverpilot]

One of the two instructors who took the matter in their hands holds an ATP. I'd be curious to see how he deals with block 18w on his 8500-8. If not during his AME visit next month, definitely during the December one. (Block 18w is about history of nontraffic convictions, either misdemeanors or felonies).

Yup. They're toast. I wonder if "Medical Insurance" covers failing Block 18w... hahaha... I've never looked. Early retirement?

 

[MauleSkinner]

One of them was the chief CFI...how much you wanna bet he was told, "it's your responsibility...just make this problem go away"?

 

[denverpilot]

One of them was the chief CFI...how much you wanna bet he was told, "it's your responsibility...just make this problem go away"?

Let’s hope so, and hope he documented it, especially if someone was dumb enough to suggest exactly how to do it. Hahaha.

 

[paflyer]

Too bad there's no English proficiency requirement to be elected President.

And twice, at that!

 

[Palmpilot]

Ahh so if THE EXACT same thing was carried about by someone with a badge and a ton of paperwork was generated and they were lad with your tax dollars, you'd be cool with it

My answer to that would depend on whether the law and due process were followed. I have zero confidence that vigilantes even know what the law and due process are.

 

[James331]

My answer to that would depend on whether the law and due process were followed. I have zero confidence that vigilantes even know what the law and due process are.

Just like how the Jim Crow laws were cool as long as they followed their "process", or civil asset forfeiture, or heck how about these

Just gotta follow the "process" and make sure you fill out your forms in triplicate and you're absolved of all "sin" eh? Lol

Kinda reminds me of people who won't help someone in distress because they are sissies and worried about getting sued or something.


And as far as being "grounded" vs. dismissed, WHO HERE has been GROUNDED by your flight school?? Anyone?? Bueller?

That's a copout, that's a cute little trick they used because the mangement, and I use that term VERY loosely, didn't want the cash flow to stop, despite having a student that from the sounds of it was a solo endorsement away from a crash waiting to happen.





Here's how it actually works, based on quite a bit of human history.

The way history has shown to be, good, virtuous, noble, in the right, etc, is this, in a normal humans heart we know what's right and what's wrong, we know what should be done, we know what the "better man would do", we just need to pull our big boy pants up and try to be that better man.

 

[GreatLakesFlying]

The local newspaper has an update on this story, including a ~2 min. audio recording from the incident.

The recording is pretty telling. The student is threatened with violence and is subjected to abusive language. No wonder why police have arrested the school employees on suspicion of kidnapping. The case is now over to prosecutors to determine if actual charges will be filed. I'd be in fear of my own safety if I was subjected to similar abusive language and threats of physical violence ("I will break your arm").

The lawyers of the arrested school employees allege that the student was "expelled" from the school earlier in May. If that is the case, the school had 21 days to notify SEVIS. This will be a critical discovery item in the process. If indeed SEVIS was notified, the student's visa is considered revoked, and the individual has to leave the country. Of course, no school official has the authority to deport a student whose visa has expired or was revoked.

In the audio recording, the student's English is dismal. Even accounting for shock, fear, confusion, and anger, this kid can' t speak English. Any school concerns about his communication skills as a pilot are more than legitimate. Less can be said about the school's tactics, though.

The audio recording is quite troubling for the two arrested individuals. Mr. McConkey can be heard stating that the student is under his "custody". I am not aware of any reason or legal ground that provides a school official with custodial privileges in a case like this. The student is an adult and the school has no reason to claim its employees were acting in loco parentis. The student also had not violated any US laws; if his visa was indeed revoked he had 30 days to leave the country and would have been in compliance with US laws at the time the incident occurred. Even if he had violated the terms of his visa, US law does not hold the school accountable as long as SEVIS has been notified within the required time period.

If these two IASCO employees felt a noble calling to take the law into their hands, I fail to see which law they were upholding. Maybe the law of the jungle, but not of the US. We are not there yet.