Knowing things from memory...

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gcd89

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Greg D.
So, my CFI's are telling me the local examiner expects a fair number of things to be known from memory (cloud clearances, airspace requirements, etc)...some people here have told me knowing WHERE to find it is more important...which do you guys have more experience with?

I can do the memory thing (and have for most things), but it's so much harder and time consuming...
 
On the checkride you will be allowed to look things up if you don't remember, but if the DPE sees that your looking up the answers to most of the questions then you might not pass (depends on the DPE). So do know where to find all that stuff but try to memorize most of it.
 
You're expected to know things, not just where to find them. Things like VFR cloud clearances should be in the "know" category. Stuff like "how many inches should be showing on the front strut of a PA-28 during the preflight" are things that can be found in the POH or checklist.

The examiner wants to see that you know stuff, AND that you know where to find things you don't know yet. So be able to answer things that relate to operations from memory, and don't be suprised or worried when you get asked a question to which you don't know the answer. That's when you're supposed to look it up.
 
You're suppose to know what EVERYTHING on the sectional means. No looking at the legend and know what the ATC light gun signals mean. I believe Vx/Vy/Vso is also in the memorize category (I fudged mine a little and had to do the "Price is right" system - 75 76 77 78 oh 79!)
 
Evaluation academic knowledge by how much the student has memorized depends on the instructor. As far as I know there isn't a list of what needs to be memorized and what you're allowed to look up. I don't know of anything that says you must get a certain number of oral questions right to pass a checkride.

When I instructed in the Army things were a little more clear cut. If it was a limit then you had to have it memorized. If it was an underlined emergency procedure then you had to have it memorized. When it comes to FARs or our Army reg (95-1) then we expected the pilot to know it.

In the Instrument Examiner Course we had a desk full of pubs laid out. I wasn't expected to memorize what's in them but I at least had to know where to look for things. The Flight Information Handbook and the General Planning guide have a wealth of information in them. You just need to know where to look.

When I gave an eval I evaluated the examinee as a whole. They might even have missed an underlined emergency procedure or even a limit or two. If their decision making and control touch is good then I cut them some slack. I never looked at an eval as a clear cut black and white thing when it came to academic knowledge. It's really just using best judgment as an examiner.
 
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I've had 3 checkrides and 3 very different experiences, but all 3 had significant memorization and general knowledge expectations. From what I can tell the examiner is trying to find the end of your knowledge, and they will find one. So you need to know where to find things and you need to make sure you run out of answers on question #50 and not #5.
 
saracelica said:
You're suppose to know what EVERYTHING on the sectional means. No looking at the legend and know what the ATC light gun signals mean. I believe Vx/Vy/Vso is also in the memorize category (I fudged mine a little and had to do the "Price is right" system - 75 76 77 78 oh 79!)
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My examiner asked me questions about the sectional until I looked at the legend (and I think that was the point), so your experience may vary.
 
seand said:
From what I can tell the examiner is trying to find the end of your knowledge, and they will find one.
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I think your examiner did not like you. They are only supposed to follow the PTS, not get you to a point where you say "I don't know".
 
Depends on the examiner. Mine allowed me to look things up, heck I didn't know much of anything and still don't. My buddy's failed him for looking stuff up.
 
For my personal needs, I want to remember anything I need to know quickly while in the aircraft. So what Vx is, or how to read anything on a sectional.

I don't want to have to look up what the emergency frequency is when I need it, so I will learn it. I will learn these things not because I want to pass my check ride, but because I don't want to fly if I don't know them. Safety is important.

So I think once I learn everything I think I should know for my on personal safety, I should be ok answering the FAA examinar's questions.
 
Not a particularly practical way to approach the subject, but whatever floats your boat.

Mafoo said:
For my personal needs, I want to remember anything I need to know quickly while in the aircraft. So what Vx is, or how to read anything on a sectional.

I don't want to have to look up what the emergency frequency is when I need it, so I will learn it. I will learn these things not because I want to pass my check ride, but because I don't want to fly if I don't know them. Safety is important.

So I think once I learn everything I think I should know for my on personal safety, I should be ok answering the FAA examinar's questions.
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saracelica said:
You're suppose to know what EVERYTHING on the sectional means. No looking at the legend and know what the ATC light gun signals mean. I believe Vx/Vy/Vso is also in the memorize category (I fudged mine a little and had to do the "Price is right" system - 75 76 77 78 oh 79!)
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Nobody knows 'everything' on a sectional unless their job is making sectionals. It might appear that way to someone taking their PPL exam, but it's not the case.
 
During my oral there wasn't anything I had to look up. She did have to give little hints at a few questions. I did a write up of my oral here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52272

A few weeks out, I printed out a chart of the cloud clearances and pasted it by my desk. Whenever I took a little break, I looked at the chart before resuming work. A week later I did the same with the sectional, then a few mnemonics.
 
wabower said:
Not a particularly practical way to approach the subject, but whatever floats your boat.
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Learning something because you think you need it, is far more practical then learning something because you want to pass a test.

I have done the latter, and gotten 100% on tests I would have failed 3 days later.

Unless you're saying the information is pointless to retain, and just required to get your PPL. Then I agree with you, however I don't think that's what your saying.
 
Mafoo said:
For my personal needs, I want to remember anything I need to know quickly while in the aircraft. So what Vx is, or how to read anything on a sectional.

I don't want to have to look up what the emergency frequency is when I need it, so I will learn it. I will learn these things not because I want to pass my check ride, but because I don't want to fly if I don't know them. Safety is important.

So I think once I learn everything I think I should know for my on personal safety, I should be ok answering the FAA examinar's questions.
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Yeah there is some stuff that you want to remember because you'll be using it in the plane. Don't want to go looking though the POH for your best glide speed after you lost your engine. But on the other hand you wont be measuring 2000ft from the cloud that's of your wing for your VFR wx minimums.
 
After I looked something up, my DPE stated it wasn't an open book test. My CFIs told me the same as you, that you could look stuff up. YMMV, but mine expected you to know everything from min daytime equip for the plane, cloud clearances, to reading a chart without a legend. One mistake isn't going to fail you, but you should go in prepared.
 
You need to learn the difference between "nice to know" and "need to know." And we're not talking about 3 days, we're talking about 3 years or maybe 30 or more. And when you think you've got it down cold, they change it. Pilots of my era still refer to Terminal Control Areas and Omni's. Or you fly a different airplane with different numbers. Or several airplanes, at which point you know VX is 78 for some airplane, just not sure which one.

At your level it's tough to know which items are considered as "memory items" and arguably better to commit more to memory than is necessary for day-to-day operations. Fortunately, most of the stuff on sectionals is intuitive after you spend some time with them, and somebody will probably point out the obscure stuff during some "stump the band" training or review session.


Mafoo said:
Learning something because you think you need it, is far more practical then learning something because you want to pass a test.

I have done the latter, and gotten 100% on tests I would have failed 3 days later.

Unless you're saying the information is pointless to retain, and just required to get your PPL. Then I agree with you, however I don't think that's what your saying.
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My grumpy, old-school examiner wanted everything from memory including airspace minimums, required instruments for VFR flight, and sectional markings. He didn't even let me look at the sectional legend.
 
From my experiance:

All my check rides - they expected me to have a good broad knowledge base on all subjects.

They all want to here a solid - I dont know but can look it up - if I did not know something.

They all found my limits and then watched how well versed I was at getting the answers.

On the one subject that I am en expert on just due to my background - they could tell and spent very little time on it and moved on to my weak areas.
 
For the practical test, there are things you must memorize, and things you can look up. During the oral, you don’t have to answer from memory anything you’d have time to look up in reality. You never need to memorize and know everything. Categorize material as:

a. Things you must memorize (i.e. emergency procedures, radio calls, airspace, etc).
b. Things you must know or have reasonable understanding of (i.e. interpreting weather codes, non-critical regs).
c. Things you must know about but can look up and will have time to look up on the ground.

(Thanks to Mark Bourdeaux for this categorization.)

So if the examiner asks you about currency, it’s OK to open the FAR book to 61.56 and 61.57 and explain them to him. But make sure you know where the answer is without reading the whole FAR/AIM cover-to-cover. On the other hand, for stuff you’d have to know RIGHT NOW (e.g., best glide speed for engine failure, etc.), you’d best not stumble or stutter – know that stuff cold.

As cloud clearances were mentioned in this thread, think about that in the context of that three-point test above -- if you're flying along, will you have time to go look in the FAR/AIM to look up the answer before you get too close to the cloud?
 
Ron Levy said:
For the practical test, there are things you must memorize, and things you can look up. During the oral, you don’t have to answer from memory anything you’d have time to look up in reality. You never need to memorize and know everything. Categorize material as:

a. Things you must memorize (i.e. emergency procedures, radio calls, airspace, etc).
b. Things you must know or have reasonable understanding of (i.e. interpreting weather codes, non-critical regs).
c. Things you must know about but can look up and will have time to look up on the ground.

(Thanks to Mark Bourdeaux for this categorization.)

So if the examiner asks you about currency, it’s OK to open the FAR book to 61.56 and 61.57 and explain them to him. But make sure you know where the answer is without reading the whole FAR/AIM cover-to-cover. On the other hand, for stuff you’d have to know RIGHT NOW (e.g., best glide speed for engine failure, etc.), you’d best not stumble or stutter – know that stuff cold.

As cloud clearances were mentioned in this thread, think about that in the context of that three-point test above -- if you're flying along, will you have time to go look in the FAR/AIM to look up the answer before you get too close to the cloud?
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Best answer so far. As for the FAR/AIM, I tabbed the sections that I thought were important, i.e. definition of "night" for carrying pax, etc. The examiners (PPL and IA) had no problem with that.
 
gcd89 said:
So, my CFI's are telling me the local examiner expects a fair number of things to be known from memory (cloud clearances, airspace requirements, etc)...some people here have told me knowing WHERE to find it is more important...which do you guys have more experience with?

I can do the memory thing (and have for most things), but it's so much harder and time consuming...
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The basics you need by memory, the minutia you need to know where to look. You should be able to answer the first three of the examiners questions on any subject matter by memory, after that "I don't know, I have to look in..." becomes an acceptable answer.

Study your chart legend well.
 
gcd89 said:
So, my CFI's are telling me the local examiner expects a fair number of things to be known from memory (cloud clearances, airspace requirements, etc)...some people here have told me knowing WHERE to find it is more important...which do you guys have more experience with?

I can do the memory thing (and have for most things), but it's so much harder and time consuming...
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The examiner surprised me with this one. He said that if I shot a rocket up from the runway at Concord Regional Airport (KJQF), which is a class D underlying Charlotte's Class B, what airspaces would that rocket go through? (I think off the top of my head that the answer would be D, E, B, E, A, G if my memory serves me from my days in NC.)
 
There are some answers that I told the examiner 'I don't worry about that because...' or 'it doesn't apply to me because....', ... "so I didn't bother with memorizing it, but IIRC it is...[fill in blank] for those that it applies to".

For example: I don't drink, so I never bothered with the requirements for flying an alchohol. Nor can the planes I fly go 200KIAS, so I didn't bother with learning max speed in Class B airspace.

My multi-hour oral marathon ended when he could tell I'd given up the ghost on Airspace and the history of Control Zones, TCAs and the current ICAO system....recommended I fill out a NASA report:idea:
 
Captain said:
Nobody knows 'everything' on a sectional unless their job is making sectionals. It might appear that way to someone taking their PPL exam, but it's not the case.
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I suspect people making sectionals don't know everything on it, either. Otherwise, it would all be in the legend. Try to find the "special military activity" (gray cross-hatch -- an example is on the Los Angeles Sectional south and west of Edwards) areas there.

During my oral, my DPE pointed out a 50% gray line 1 mile south of the Squaw Valley VOR (west of Lake Tahoe) on the San Francisco Sectional, and asked me what it was. It's not in the legend. I swear I wanted to punch him for that. The answer is much more obvious on skyvector than it is on a paper sectional like I had.
 
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Captain said:
Nobody knows 'everything' on a sectional unless their job is making sectionals. It might appear that way to someone taking their PPL exam, but it's not the case.
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That's for sure, I've been looking at for 25 years and I still find 'new' stuff.
 
nddons said:
The examiner surprised me with this one. He said that if I shot a rocket up from the runway at Concord Regional Airport (KJQF), which is a class D underlying Charlotte's Class B, what airspaces would that rocket go through? (I think off the top of my head that the answer would be D, E, B, E, A, G if my memory serves me from my days in NC.)
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I would have told him with a rocket that goes that high you wouldn't be able to launch it within 5 miles of an airport according to Part 101.23. :wink2:
 
Velocity173 said:
I would have told him with a rocket that goes that high you wouldn't be able to launch it within 5 miles of an airport according to Part 101.23. :wink2:
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Only if it's an amateur rocket.

Just about every US commercial or government rocket launch is within 5 miles of a runway and at an airport (usually an air force base).
 
MAKG1 said:
Only if it's an amateur rocket.

Just about every US commercial or government rocket launch is within 5 miles of a runway and at an airport (usually an air force base).
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Since he said if you shot a rocket, I was interpeting that to mean amateur. Obviously Kennedy Space Center is within 5 miles of an airport.
 
saracelica said:
You're suppose to know what EVERYTHING on the sectional means. No looking at the legend and know what the ATC light gun signals mean. I believe Vx/Vy/Vso is also in the memorize category (I fudged mine a little and had to do the "Price is right" system - 75 76 77 78 oh 79!)
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As an examiner back in the day, I wanted an applicant to tell me how those V numbers changed with density altitude..."book" numbers were not acceptable except as a starting point in the conversation. But that was just me.

Bob Gardner
 
gcd89 said:
So, my CFI's are telling me the local examiner expects a fair number of things to be known from memory (cloud clearances, airspace requirements, etc)...some people here have told me knowing WHERE to find it is more important...which do you guys have more experience with?

I can do the memory thing (and have for most things), but it's so much harder and time consuming...
Click to expand...

Cloud clearances are something you need in flight, without looking it up, so I'd say memorize them but know where to double-check them.

Or you could look them up in flight as you wander into one. Hahaha. No.
 
Velocity173 said:
Since he said if you shot a rocket, I was interpeting that to mean amateur. Obviously Kennedy Space Center is within 5 miles of an airport.
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Launch pad to runway? Eeeh maybe, it's close to 5 anyway, that's a big property when you fly and boat by.
 
denverpilot said:
Cloud clearances are something you need in flight, without looking it up, so I'd say memorize them but know where to double-check them.
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And how good are you at estimating the actual distance to a cloud?

The "default" numbers - 500, 1000, 2000, 3 miles apply in most places so all you have to memorize is the exceptions.
 
MAKG1 said:
KSC is an airport. So is Vandenberg, and so is Mohave.

You don't identify airports by their runways alone.
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Actually no, they are two separate facilities at the Cape, take the tour, do the lunch with an astronaut, totally worth it. Vandenberg has multiple facilities as well IIRC.
 
I heard of an applicant in flight actually climbing up to the cloud to see how far away they were... oops.
 
Henning said:
Actually no, they are two separate facilities at the Cape, take the tour, do the lunch with an astronaut, totally worth it. Vandenberg has multiple facilities as well IIRC.
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If you read the chart, you'll see the whole Cape enclosed by two Class D circles.

The NASA site I work at is "officially" three different facilities, but no one outside the fence knows or cares. It's only one Class D airspace, with two parallel runways. That one site is closely controlled by NASA, one is open, and one is the CA ANG is not obvious at all, nor relevant unless you can't get a NASA visitors badge.
 
First, I'm disappointed that Ron has posted twice in this thread and has yet to mention the situation about being chased by Horvidos indians. But I'm sure he will as soon as someone mentioned TOMATO FLAMES.

Second, there were a few items that I thought I maybe should know but really didn't want to memorize, but didn't want to have to look them up. These few items (cloud clearances, light signals and required equipment) I just printed out and taped to my clip board. Right there in front of me at all times and doesn't take any of my (increasingly) limited memory.
 
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