Know your Air Force

Henning

Taxi to Parking
Gone West
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iHenning
In a trip down the rabbit warren of YouTube I stumbled on this:

http://youtu.be/_J22zyhwX3A

It's a post war propaganda piece for fund raising mostly, but there's some cool footage and a few rare types, a couple I never heard of before.
 
Those Air Force base open house events were a staple of my childhood in the late 1950s and early 60s in Southern California. My father was a flight test engineer for North American Aviation at that time, working on the X-15 program, so an extended visit to the B-52 was always mandatory (grin).
Thanks for posting the link.
 
Those Air Force base open house events were a staple of my childhood in the late 1950s and early 60s in Southern California. My father was a flight test engineer for North American Aviation at that time, working on the X-15 program, so an extended visit to the B-52 was always mandatory (grin).
Thanks for posting the link.

This one looks like it's pre Korea even. I wonder when they changed the P designation to F? Was that part of the break with the Army?
 
I think the change from P=pursuit to F=fighter was in 1962 but that's not an area of expertise for me.

The Tri-Service designation arrived in 1962. The USAF changed from P-Pursuit to F-Fighter in 1948.
 
I think the change from P=pursuit to F=fighter was in 1962 but that's not an area of expertise for me.

They called them F-47 and F-51 in this video which I think is 1947 because the are introducing the B-47 which had just made its first flight, and they featured the F-47, and 1947 was the last year in service for the F(P)-47

That's there is a trifecta of 47s.:lol:
 
The P-47s ... er F-47s in the film all have National Guard markings, so it could have been later.

:redface:

Ahh good catch, but it has to be pre Korea from the propaganda involved. Anyway, you answered my question, 1948 for the designation change, thanks.

It was the first I heard of the B-45, looked it up, it was pretty cool.
 
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I grew up in the Mid-Hudson Valley in the 1950s and 60s. Airpower demonstration flights were a monthly event, with fighters out of Stewart and bombers out of Griffiths. Multiple flights of aircraft in tight formation and low altitude was a sight to behold.
It was really interesting to see Col. Schilling in the second half of the video. A true WWII hero, scoring 22½ kills in 2 tours, 5 confirmed kills in one fight.
 
It was the first I heard of the B-45, looked it up, it was pretty cool.
There's one in the NMUSAF in Dayton:

P1030858.JPG
 
I always wondered about taking some of the cool early jet airframes and re-engin ins them with modern high efficiency engines. Without having to pick up a first generation nuclear bomb, you could seriously down rate the max thrust and still make MMo.
 
I always wondered about taking some of the cool early jet airframes and re-engin ins them with modern high efficiency engines. Without having to pick up a first generation nuclear bomb, you could seriously down rate the max thrust and still make MMo.
One might be tempted to replace the two engines in each B-45 nacelle with a single, higher-powered engine. The B-45 arrangement looks clean, but I'd bet it was a maintenance headache.
 
I always wondered about taking some of the cool early jet airframes and re-engin ins them with modern high efficiency engines. Without having to pick up a first generation nuclear bomb, you could seriously down rate the max thrust and still make MMo.

Me 262 Project
 
One might be tempted to replace the two engines in each B-45 nacelle with a single, higher-powered engine. The B-45 arrangement looks clean, but I'd bet it was a maintenance headache.

Aww, but that pretty post Art Deco, "Space Age" twin cowling is what makes the look.;). I was thinking more in the line of sticking some type of Williams or other compact efficient design in instead.

I'm surprised the B-52 hasn't gone to 4 big engines.
 
I'm surprised the B-52 hasn't gone to 4 big engines.


They keep trying to make the spending cut with this project. In fact it was pretty big news this year, not sure if it made it though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
They keep trying to make the spending cut with this project. In fact it was pretty big news this year, not sure if it made it though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

We still put a fair few hours on them right? I mean, would it be a pretty good operational savings to go to 4 modern big high bypass engines or not?:dunno:
 
We still put a fair few hours on them right? I mean, would it be a pretty good operational savings to go to 4 modern big high bypass engines or not?:dunno:

That there would be a significant operational savings per aircraft is a pretty safe bet. The upfront cost is another matter. There are only about 85 active B-52s left to spread the new engine program costs over and the AF probably has plenty of spare TF33s on hand.

Some modern big high-bypass engines could make the B-52 a twin.
 
Per the all-knowing Wikipedia, there are conflicting conclusions between the GAO and the DSB regarding the cost-effectiveness of switching:

"For a study for the U.S. Air Force in the mid-1970s, Boeing investigated replacing the engines, changing to a new wing, and other improvements to upgrade B-52G/H aircraft as an alternative to the B-1A, then in development.[104] Boeing later suggested re-engining the B-52H fleet with the Rolls-Royce RB211 535E-4.[105] This would involve replacing the eight Pratt & Whitney TF33s (total thrust 8 × 17,000 lb) with four RB211s (total thrust 4 × 37,400 lb)—which would increase range and reduce fuel consumption, at a cost of approximately US$2.56 billion for the whole fleet (71 aircraft at $36 million each). A Government Accountability Office study concluded that Boeing's estimated savings of US$4.7 billion would not be realized and that it would cost US$1.3 billion over keeping the existing engines, citing significant up-front procurement and re-tooling expenditure, as well as the RB211's higher maintenance cost. The GAO report was subsequently disputed in a Defense Sciences Board report in 2003; the Air Force was urged to re-engine the aircraft without delay.[106] Further, the DSB report stated the program would have significant savings, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and increase aircraft range and endurance, in line with the conclusions of a separate Congress-funded study conducted in 2003.[107] In 2014, the U.S. Air Force was reviewing industry studies of engine replacement.[108] The re-engining has not been approved as of 2014. In late 2014, it was reported that the DOD and unnamed private companies were exploring a leasing program where private lease companies would purchase new engines and lease them to the USAF. DOD costs would be determined by depreciation and actual usage with no up-front lump payments.[109]"
 
at an open house ~10 years ago, they had an F-16 and an older fighter (a prop) fly overhead nearly side by side. It's striking to see the difference in just the size alone of the modern fighters.
 
That there would be a significant operational savings per aircraft is a pretty safe bet. The upfront cost is another matter. There are only about 85 active B-52s left to spread the new engine program costs over and the AF probably has plenty of spare TF33s on hand.

Some modern big high-bypass engines could make the B-52 a twin.

That's the question, do we project them operate them enough hours into the future to be able to amortize in the cost of conversion?:dunno: I was surprised back when they made the decission to keep and upgrade the fleet that they didn't go all the way then. The way we teach value at the MBA level really makes no sense to use in government, because it doesn't benefit the people with the best result.
 
Per the all-knowing Wikipedia, there are conflicting conclusions between the GAO and the DSB regarding the cost-effectiveness of switching:

"For a study for the U.S. Air Force in the mid-1970s, Boeing investigated replacing the engines, changing to a new wing, and other improvements to upgrade B-52G/H aircraft as an alternative to the B-1A, then in development.[104] Boeing later suggested re-engining the B-52H fleet with the Rolls-Royce RB211 535E-4.[105] This would involve replacing the eight Pratt & Whitney TF33s (total thrust 8 × 17,000 lb) with four RB211s (total thrust 4 × 37,400 lb)—which would increase range and reduce fuel consumption, at a cost of approximately US$2.56 billion for the whole fleet (71 aircraft at $36 million each). A Government Accountability Office study concluded that Boeing's estimated savings of US$4.7 billion would not be realized and that it would cost US$1.3 billion over keeping the existing engines, citing significant up-front procurement and re-tooling expenditure, as well as the RB211's higher maintenance cost. The GAO report was subsequently disputed in a Defense Sciences Board report in 2003; the Air Force was urged to re-engine the aircraft without delay.[106] Further, the DSB report stated the program would have significant savings, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and increase aircraft range and endurance, in line with the conclusions of a separate Congress-funded study conducted in 2003.[107] In 2014, the U.S. Air Force was reviewing industry studies of engine replacement.[108] The re-engining has not been approved as of 2014. In late 2014, it was reported that the DOD and unnamed private companies were exploring a leasing program where private lease companies would purchase new engines and lease them to the USAF. DOD costs would be determined by depreciation and actual usage with no up-front lump payments.[109]"

See, I dont think in the 70s they were projecting the platform to be in use in 2015 still, that changes the amortization, they were also looking at different fuel costs and political realities at that point. Had we done the conversion we would have realized more than the projected savings by now.

Does anyone see the B-52 going away?:dunno:
 
Would there be sufficient ground clearance for the cowlings of big modern engines on a B-52?

Well, have you seen the clearance on a 737? Since a B-52 has swiveling gear to land wings level in a crab, I would suppose so.
 
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