Kitty Hawk Cora Air Taxi

[jsstevens]

Nuclear is not a renewable. You said renewables.

Windmills haven’t paid for themselves from start to end yet, energy wise, including The energy to make them and probably won’t. Nobody’s shown any numbers where they do. Which is why I always chuckle when someone says they’re a renewable. They’re still a negative energy source.

The end to end environmental impact is something I'm curious about for a lot of this stuff. Clearly it's more cost effective to filter pollutants from a relatively few fixed installations than a bunch of mobile ones. But all the raw materials and the disposal when they're junked? What impact does that have?

If you're going to use electricity to power ground vehicles, that's pretty cool given some of the characteristics of electric motors (like maximum torque at 0 RPM, the ability to use the motor for braking and energy capture, for example) and the sophistication of the computer control technology. Put a motor at each wheel and all sorts of cool possibilities for stability control and performance open up.

I still think the energy transfer rate (hard to even imagine beating dumping a bunch of chemicals in a tank for that) and energy density (again a bunch of chemicals in a tank vs batteries) are not there. Swapping battery packs is the only way to beat the first, without violating the laws of physics. While the second is getting better, we're still not there and lithium ion battery fires show that packing a bunch of energy int a small space can cause issues when it leaks out in uncontrolled fashion. (Which is also true of a bunch of chemicals in a tank.)

John

 

[denverpilot]

The end to end environmental impact is something I'm curious about for a lot of this stuff. Clearly it's more cost effective to filter pollutants from a relatively few fixed installations than a bunch of mobile ones. But all the raw materials and the disposal when they're junked? What impact does that have?

I’ve always been interested in that part, too.

But the leading expert on making electric cars is launching space trash on purpose and using it for marketing purposes and people think he’s a hero for it, so... whatever. LOL.

We’re going to trash the place. Yay space monkeys. Is the Tesla launch with SpaceMan just the same as the monkeys at the zoo flinging poo? Hahaha.

 

[dell30rb]

If ever there was a thread made for Henning's input, this is the one.

Tether it to the USS Gerald Ford?

 

[jsstevens]

I’ve always been interested in that part, too.

But the leading expert on making electric cars is launching space trash on purpose and using it for marketing purposes and people think he’s a hero for it, so... whatever. LOL.

We’re going to trash the place. Yay space monkeys. Is the Tesla launch with SpaceMan just the same as the monkeys at the zoo flinging poo? Hahaha.

You could get into quite a debate among car folks as to which brand best represents flinging poo.

 

[dell30rb]

I think there is a role for electric aircraft in the near future, just not this contraption. I saw a design recently for a 172-like trainer that would give 1.5h of flight time on a 45 minute charge. Seems feasible for a flight school.

 

[denverpilot]

I think there is a role for electric aircraft in the near future, just not this contraption. I saw a design recently for a 172-like trainer that would give 1.5h of flight time on a 45 minute charge. Seems feasible for a flight school.

The problem is, how long to recharge? As someone mentioned, the battery swap seems to be the only way to make an aircraft have a reasonable dispatch rate.

Booking out the airplane a maximum of twice a day with careful planning as to when it’s charging, won’t pay the flight school’s bills.

 

[dell30rb]

The problem is, how long to recharge? As someone mentioned, the battery swap seems to be the only way to make an aircraft have a reasonable dispatch rate.

Booking out the airplane a maximum of twice a day with careful planning as to when it’s charging, won’t pay the flight school’s bills.

Right there in the quote... 45 minutes

 

[denverpilot]

Right there in the quote... 45 minutes

Oops. Missed it.

That’s going to be really hard on the batteries.

I doubt they can do that back to back to back on a summer day.

The heat from inefficiencies in any modern battery chemistry would be quite high and the life of the packs would be diminished doing recharges at that rate all the time.

Not to mention the weight... batteries weigh a hell of a lot more for the same power. Was the test aircraft capable of carrying anywhere close to its petrochemical cousin?

They’re getting motors lighter and trying not to have them break down at those weights, but battery chemistry is our real hold back for nearly everything that needs an energy dense battery system.

One area I think would be neat to see is a SMALL battery system and a small motor in self launch sailplanes. It’s still have significant disadvantages against a non self launch brother or sister ship, but the little gas powered self launches are neat already.

It’s also a way to see if electric can truly compete weight wise. Sailplane people would buy the gas one if it was lighter. Market would decide that one.

 

[jsstevens]

Oops. Missed it.

That’s going to be really hard on the batteries.

I doubt they can do that back to back to back on a summer day.

The heat from inefficiencies in any modern battery chemistry would be quite high and the life of the packs would be diminished doing recharges at that rate all the time.

Not to mention the weight... batteries weigh a hell of a lot more for the same power. Was the test aircraft capable of carrying anywhere close to its petrochemical cousin?

They’re getting motors lighter and trying not to have them break down at those weights, but battery chemistry is our real hold back for nearly everything that needs an energy dense battery system.

One area I think would be neat to see is a SMALL battery system and a small motor in self launch sailplanes. It’s still have significant disadvantages against a non self launch brother or sister ship, but the little gas powered self launches are neat already.

It’s also a way to see if electric can truly compete weight wise. Sailplane people would buy the gas one if it was lighter. Market would decide that one.

Hard on the batteries and the faster you charge the bigger amperage which drives cable sizes and costs for the entire infrastructure. Imagine a large flight school that wants to charge 20 planes at once.

 

[dell30rb]

Hard on the batteries and the faster you charge the bigger amperage which drives cable sizes and costs for the entire infrastructure. Imagine a large flight school that wants to charge 20 planes at once.

In our case you can see the nuke cooling tower from the ramp so we'd be fine!

 

[bflynn]

I think there is a role for electric aircraft in the near future, just not this contraption. I saw a design recently for a 172-like trainer that would give 1.5h of flight time on a 45 minute charge. Seems feasible for a flight school.

Why not this "contraption"? It's essentially a VTOL airplane. It's intended as a short distance air taxi service. I'm far more concerned about not having a pilot than the nature of the airframe. Rather telling that they're going to New Zealand in order to commercialize it. American is apparently not the place to do new aviation things.

The Sun Flyer (http://sunflyer.com) is not a 172 type airplane, but it is the closest we have right now to an electric trainer. Their strategy is to swap batteries out, not to charge in place.

 

[dell30rb]

Why not this "contraption"? It's essentially a VTOL airplane. It's intended as a short distance air taxi service. I'm far more concerned about not having a pilot than the nature of the airframe. Rather telling that they're going to New Zealand in order to commercialize it. American is apparently not the place to do new aviation things.

It looks complicated, expensive, slow, loud/annoying, not practical and crashy.

You'll note they dubbed over the sound of it hovering with pleasant music and commentary about its eco-friendliness. That's because it sounds like a monstrous swarm of angry killer bees.


The sunflyer looks more promising.

 

[bflynn]

It looks complicated, expensive, slow, loud/annoying, not practical and crashy.

You'll note they dubbed over the sound of it hovering with pleasant music and commentary about its eco-friendliness. That's because it sounds like a monstrous swarm of angry killer bees.


The sunflyer looks more promising.

Different applications. The Cora is intended to be an autonomous air taxi, like the helicopter shuttles in NYC. Sun Flyer is an electric training aircraft.

 

[Salty]

Why not this "contraption"? It's essentially a VTOL airplane. It's intended as a short distance air taxi service. I'm far more concerned about not having a pilot than the nature of the airframe. Rather telling that they're going to New Zealand in order to commercialize it. American is apparently not the place to do new aviation things.

The Sun Flyer (http://sunflyer.com) is not a 172 type airplane, but it is the closest we have right now to an electric trainer. Their strategy is to swap batteries out, not to charge in place.

Battery swap out is a great option if you have enough cash to spend on huge batteries that aren’t flying.

 

[jsstevens]

Battery swap out is a great option if you have enough cash to spend on huge batteries that aren’t flying.

It's the only way to make it work for a training fleet. Assuming it only takes a few minutes to swap the battery. I wonder what they factored into their projected hourly operating cost of $16 and change? Does it include battery replacement when they wear out?

 

[Salty]

It's the only way to make it work for a training fleet. Assuming it only takes a few minutes to swap the battery. I wonder what they factored into their projected hourly operating cost of $16 and change? Does it include battery replacement when they wear out?

Buying $10,000 battery packs that are sitting idle half the time is the way to make it work? Interesting definition of "working".

 

[jsstevens]

Buying $10,000 battery packs that are sitting idle half the time is the way to make it work? Interesting definition of "working".

Only way to keep the plane in the air enough for a training plane. Economics aside, it's the only practical way to cut the "refueling" time for an electric. That narrow definition of working.

Economics? Hard to tell because we don't have enough information. No Avgas costs. No oil changes or spark plugs. No engine overhaul (perhaps. Perhaps the motor need something at some point?) Batteries will definitely wear out. Tires? Sure. The web site is quoting $16 ish dollars per hour operating cost. But they don't say what they include in that figure.

 

[bflynn]

Battery swap out is a great option if you have enough cash to spend on huge batteries that aren’t flying.

The pictures I saw had something like 6 battery packs, each about the size of a small suitcase. I don’t call those huge, but it is a valid point to call out batteries on the ground.

 

[ironnerd]

Yeah, no pollutants come out of a nuclear plant.

True of the plants in use today. However, there are a few that are great improvements on the current reactors. They cannot melt down, and can use "spent" rods as fuel (meaning they contribute no new pollution, and the resulting waste is much less hazardous). We had an experimental plant running for 30 years without an hiccup, but short sighted politicians cancelled the program. Whataya do, right...

The only renewable that might actually work is Solar, but it would have to be space based solar in order to cover all of our needs. The booster program that would have made space-based solar possible was cancelled by short-sighted politicians. Again...Whataya do?