Kit builts

[Aztec Driver]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or information on the resale value of a decent experimental category plane.

Let's assume something like an RV-10, which I am considering. If I take the time and expense to build something like this, what can one reasonably expect to sell it for when it comes time to trade it in for something else, or just to retire from flying and sell it? I would surely hate to put into this project the expense of a good travelling machine, (spelled lots of bells and whistles), and get very little out of it in the end.

On a related note, is it possible to get one certified for IFR flight? Including all of the necessary installation steps for an IFR GPS?

 

[sere]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or information on the resale value of a decent experimental category plane.

Let's assume something like an RV-10, which I am considering. If I take the time and expense to build something like this, what can one reasonably expect to sell it for when it comes time to trade it in for something else, or just to retire from flying and sell it? I would surely hate to put into this project the expense of a good travelling machine, (spelled lots of bells and whistles), and get very little out of it in the end.

On a related note, is it possible to get one certified for IFR flight? Including all of the necessary installation steps for an IFR GPS?

All of the RV's of Vans hold there value very well if you do a good job building them. If you do a very, very good job building one they sure do command a good price. And yes you can make them IFR. Good luck.

 

[gismo]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or information on the resale value of a decent experimental category plane.

Let's assume something like an RV-10, which I am considering. If I take the time and expense to build something like this, what can one reasonably expect to sell it for when it comes time to trade it in for something else, or just to retire from flying and sell it? I would surely hate to put into this project the expense of a good travelling machine, (spelled lots of bells and whistles), and get very little out of it in the end.

On a related note, is it possible to get one certified for IFR flight? Including all of the necessary installation steps for an IFR GPS?

It used to be that you'd be lucky to get a sale price equal to the cash invested with nothing for your time. These days it seems that a well built example of a popular kit airplane can fetch a premium over that, but I wouldn't expect to make close to minimum wage on your hours of work.

 

[Henning]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or information on the resale value of a decent experimental category plane.

Let's assume something like an RV-10, which I am considering. If I take the time and expense to build something like this, what can one reasonably expect to sell it for when it comes time to trade it in for something else, or just to retire from flying and sell it? I would surely hate to put into this project the expense of a good travelling machine, (spelled lots of bells and whistles), and get very little out of it in the end.

On a related note, is it possible to get one certified for IFR flight? Including all of the necessary installation steps for an IFR GPS?

If you do an excellent job of building an advanced aircraft, and shop well for all your equipment deals, figure on the first one you build, you may come out at $.25 an hour (unless you really know what you're doing and have extensive sheetmetal/fiberglass experience).

 

[Ed Guthrie]

It used to be that you'd be lucky to get a sale price equal to the cash invested with nothing for your time. These days it seems that a well built example of a popular kit airplane can fetch a premium over that, but I wouldn't expect to make close to minimum wage on your hours of work.

What Lance wrote is true when a popular kit is fairly new and there are fairly few examples flying and/or for sale. After the population of kits completed increases and the novelty subsides kit prices tend to slide to very close to or significantly less than the sum of the components (kit + engine + avionics). For example, ~2 years ago a finished Lancair IV would command ~$350-400k which represented a $100k+ premium over the component costs. Today that same finished Lancair IV asking price has begun the slide towards ~$250k, which is roughly equal to the component costs. The reason? The Lancair IVP is the hot model today.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Thanks for the answers. Actually, it doesn't sound as bad as I was thinking. I am not really looking to make money. (or I wouldn't do things in aviation!) I was more concerned about the cost of the materials, not the labor time. I would consider the labor time as my "fun" and challenge time. An RV-10 seems to be the best match to my needs for an aircraft, and it would be an interesting challenge.

I would assume that there are installation instructions available even for used/serviceable avionics? The equipment I would want to install may put a cost damper on the whole situation though. Since I want to fly it in IMC, I would want some nice instrumentation, including an IFR GPS (KLN 94 or Garmin 430) and an "otto pilot" w/alt hold and linked to the nav head.

Here is a very inexperienced person's question. (don't laugh too hard) Is there any ice protection for a light single like this that wouldn't tax the abilities of the airplane too badly? Boots and prop and windshield?

 

[gibbons]

Byron,

It's important that the equipment fit the airplane. An RV of any kind full of Avidyne equipment won't come as close to fetching a resale price equal to your cost as one with a nice, clean stack of Garmins. On the other hand, a Lancair IVP pretty much demands an expensive stack of radios to make it marketable.

The electrical wiring in a homebuilt can be one of the most challenging things to get right, especially with regard to the radios. I strongly suggest that anyone who doesn't have prior experience with aircraft radios explore using Approach Systems when they build. As for autopilots, you're in luck with an experimental aircraft because you can install any number of autopilots from TruTrak and have an autopilot that outperforms any of the GA products out there.

I'm not aware of any de-ice or anti-ice equipment for the run-of-the-mill homebuilt. I'm sure there are Lancairs out there with TKS, but I'm not aware of any.

Regarding homebuilts in general.....
As my sister used to say, "Not to beat a dead horse to death," I'll repeat my standard line to anyone thinking about building a homebuilt. There are builders and there are pilots. Occasionally you'll find someone who is both, but not very often. I ask people who are considering building to close their eyes and visualize the airplane they are thinking about building. What do you see? Do you imagine yourself in the shop making the perfect installation of a seat rail, or do you see yourself landing at your favorite airport. Chances are you're either a builder or a pilot. Chances are you aren't both.

Chip (I may not be much of a pilot, but I'm sure as hell not a builder)
Rans S12XL - completed
Vans RV6 - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit
F1 Rocket - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit

 

[Aztec Driver]

Byron,

It's important that the equipment fit the airplane. An RV of any kind full of Avidyne equipment won't come as close to fetching a resale price equal to your cost as one with a nice, clean stack of Garmins. On the other hand, a Lancair IVP pretty much demands an expensive stack of radios to make it marketable.

The electrical wiring in a homebuilt can be one of the most challenging things to get right, especially with regard to the radios. I strongly suggest that anyone who doesn't have prior experience with aircraft radios explore using Approach Systems when they build. As for autopilots, you're in luck with an experimental aircraft because you can install any number of autopilots from TruTrak and have an autopilot that outperforms any of the GA products out there.

I'm not aware of any de-ice or anti-ice equipment for the run-of-the-mill homebuilt. I'm sure there are Lancairs out there with TKS, but I'm not aware of any.

Regarding homebuilts in general.....
As my sister used to say, "Not to beat a dead horse to death," I'll repeat my standard line to anyone thinking about building a homebuilt. There are builders and there are pilots. Occasionally you'll find someone who is both, but not very often. I ask people who are considering building to close their eyes and visualize the airplane they are thinking about building. What do you see? Do you imagine yourself in the shop making the perfect installation of a seat rail, or do you see yourself landing at your favorite airport. Chances are you're either a builder or a pilot. Chances are you aren't both.

Chip (I may not be much of a pilot, but I'm sure as hell not a builder)
Rans S12XL - completed
Vans RV6 - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit
F1 Rocket - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit

Thanks Chip.

In answer to your question, while I absolutely love flying, I am a mechanic at heart. I love to take things apart and find out exactly how they operate, not just believe it is PFM. I may have a hard time with the amount of time involved, as I don't always have that kind of spare time. Taking years to complete, I may lose interest as well, but I usually like to finish what I start, regardless if I am still interested.

 

[gismo]

I have have several friends who seem to be the rare combination of pilot/builder. One completed his Lancain 360 last spring after spending about three years on it. It won the coveted Oshkosh grand champion award (kit built) this summer, so you can be assured that he is a meticulous builder. He's been flying it for over a year, but now he says he will sell it within 6 months and start on a Lancair Legacy. He said he's finish the Legacy in a year and want's to upgrade because of the higher speed available.

Another built a Thorp T-18 many years ago and spent the last 3-5 years designing a building an aerobatic biplane from scratch. He got the biplane in the air last spring and has been practicing acro and flying contests in it.

A third friend religiously spent 30 hours per week for 5 years completing a very nice Glasair. He's been flying it since 2001 and has no plans to build another plane.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Lance, are these guys retired or otherwise free of the 40hr per week grind?
When I rebuilt an airplane it fried me because of time demands. Didn't fly much, it was work, snack, to the hangar, sleep, work, etc.

 

[gismo]

Lance, are these guys retired or otherwise free of the 40hr per week grind?
When I rebuilt an airplane it fried me because of time demands. Didn't fly much, it was work, snack, to the hangar, sleep, work, etc.

The Lancair builder baffles me as to where he finds the time or what he does for a living (definitely not retired, I think he's some kind of doctor). The other two are ordinary working folks although the guy who built the Thorp and the biplane works as an aeronautical engineer.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The other requirement (besides phenomenal motivation) is a very understanding S.O.

 

[Brian Austin]

The Lancair builder baffles me as to where he finds the time or what he does for a living (definitely not retired, I think he's some kind of doctor). The other two are ordinary working folks although the guy who built the Thorp and the biplane works as an aeronautical engineer.

It is possible but not easy. I've found many hours by simply cutting television out of my day. I do homework (going to school 'full time' in the evenings) during the week and Sunday afternoons. I spend Saturdays in the shop or flying in the morning.

It amazes me how much time is really available with a well organized day. I'm not there yet but I'm closer. I have an advantage of not having any kids to work around, though. My dog pretty much doesn't care where I go, as long as she can go, too.

 

[mgkdrgn]

What about the "liability issues" that would ensue after a sale when an individual is the builder of an airplane? I would think that that "builder" would be first on the hit list for the jackels after his buyer (or the one after that, or the one after that) turned that homebuilt into a smoking hole somewhere.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

What about the "liability issues" that would ensue after a sale when an individual is the builder of an airplane? I would think that that "builder" would be first on the hit list for the jackels after his buyer (or the one after that, or the one after that) turned that homebuilt into a smoking hole somewhere.

There is that. It is a consideration. But there are a couple of ways around that. First is to never sell it. Second is to part it out, but you still may have some exposure. I am sure there are others, but I don't know what they may be.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

What about the "liability issues" that would ensue after a sale when an individual is the builder of an airplane? I would think that that "builder" would be first on the hit list for the jackels after his buyer (or the one after that, or the one after that) turned that homebuilt into a smoking hole somewhere.

A very real concern for which there is no good solution that I have heard of.
I know of a couple of lawsuits over this issue. Some talk of NEVER selling a homebuilt, chopping it up with chainsaws to prevent problems.
There is liability everywhere, for the most innocuous things. I have wondered how long a mechanic should keep his insurance after he hangs up his tools. Someone could find his name in a logbook and decide he caused all their anguish and proceed to make his life a legal living hell.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Well, I was going to say thanks for all the replies, but after you came out with that liability stuff, you got me scared. Jeez I hate this litigous scociety where everything has to be someone's fault. So would it help to make the buyer have a mechanic inspect it thoroughly and sign off as to the airworthiness and construction and have it noted in the aircraft logs?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

So would it help to make the buyer have a mechanic inspect it thoroughly and sign off as to the airworthiness and construction and have it noted in the aircraft logs?

I would say yes; but only so far as the claimant's attorney is not able to undermine that as a defense! Gotta love our legal system.

DT (not an attorney by any stretch)

 

[mgkdrgn]

Only if he has something substantial worth taking away from him. Lawyers don't work for free.

I have wondered how long a mechanic should keep his insurance after he hangs up his tools. Someone could find his name in a logbook and decide he caused all their anguish and proceed to make his life a legal living hell.

 

[mgkdrgn]

IMHO, you could have Chuck Yeager and Orvill Wright sign off your books, and it wouldn't make a whit of difference. You are still the manufacturer, and you carry that responsiblity until the plane is chopped into scrap.

Don't have to be right, just has to be legal.

Well, I was going to say thanks for all the replies, but after you came out with that liability stuff, you got me scared. Jeez I hate this litigous scociety where everything has to be someone's fault. So would it help to make the buyer have a mechanic inspect it thoroughly and sign off as to the airworthiness and construction and have it noted in the aircraft logs?

 

[gismo]

IMHO, you could have Chuck Yeager and Orvill Wright sign off your books, and it wouldn't make a whit of difference. You are still the manufacturer, and you carry that responsiblity until the plane is chopped into scrap.

Don't have to be right, just has to be legal.

I wonder if you can form a corporation to build and own the kit. When you sell, sell the corporation instead of the kit and you avoid sales tax (YRMV) plus the manufacturer's liability goes away with the plane.

I don't know if a corporation can register a homebuilt though.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

IMHO, you could have Chuck Yeager and Orvill Wright sign off your books, and it wouldn't make a whit of difference. You are still the manufacturer, and you carry that responsiblity until the plane is chopped into scrap.

Don't have to be right, just has to be legal.

Lots of sellers disassemble them just to the point that a new "manufacturer" is required to make them airworthy, and they retire the N # as well.

 

[bharris]

Byron,

It's important that the equipment fit the airplane. An RV of any kind full of Avidyne equipment won't come as close to fetching a resale price equal to your cost as one with a nice, clean stack of Garmins. On the other hand, a Lancair IVP pretty much demands an expensive stack of radios to make it marketable.

The electrical wiring in a homebuilt can be one of the most challenging things to get right, especially with regard to the radios. I strongly suggest that anyone who doesn't have prior experience with aircraft radios explore using Approach Systems when they build. As for autopilots, you're in luck with an experimental aircraft because you can install any number of autopilots from TruTrak and have an autopilot that outperforms any of the GA products out there.

I'm not aware of any de-ice or anti-ice equipment for the run-of-the-mill homebuilt. I'm sure there are Lancairs out there with TKS, but I'm not aware of any.

Regarding homebuilts in general.....
As my sister used to say, "Not to beat a dead horse to death," I'll repeat my standard line to anyone thinking about building a homebuilt. There are builders and there are pilots. Occasionally you'll find someone who is both, but not very often. I ask people who are considering building to close their eyes and visualize the airplane they are thinking about building. What do you see? Do you imagine yourself in the shop making the perfect installation of a seat rail, or do you see yourself landing at your favorite airport. Chances are you're either a builder or a pilot. Chances are you aren't both.

Chip (I may not be much of a pilot, but I'm sure as hell not a builder)
Rans S12XL - completed
Vans RV6 - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit
F1 Rocket - lost interest and sold the unfinished kit

"A man's got to know his limitations."
-Dirty Harry

 

[Keith Lane]

A while back, Bill Elliott of NASCAR fame sold his Lancair. This looks like it was taken about as far as one could go at the time.

http://www.homebuiltaircraft.com/classified/AdDetail.aspx?itemid=171&directory=+70

When I was at the Sun-n-Fun Museum in Lakeland, I noticed how many of the planes were donated. When I asked why so many people did that, the reply was simple, liability. The builders did not want the planes destroyed or flown. And by donating it they got both. And naybe a tax write-off too.

 

[gibbons]

I don't know if a corporation can register a homebuilt though.

Lance,
I believe a corporation can register the airplane, but the repairman's certificate must go to an individual, which means that a single individual must be the builder of record. And it's the builder, not the owner, who has the liability.

All of this by memory, so as Richard Bach wrote, "Everything in this book could be wrong."

 

[RogerT]

What about the "liability issues" that would ensue after a sale when an individual is the builder of an airplane? I would think that that "builder" would be first on the hit list for the jackels after his buyer (or the one after that, or the one after that) turned that homebuilt into a smoking hole somewhere.

I'm in the process of building a Sport Pilot type plane. I'm not aware of
anyone collecting from a homebuilder. The plane is Experimental which
by definition doesn't meet any particular airworthiness standards. How
would you ever prove someone failed to meet standards that don't
exist? They're built for "recreation and education". There's a lot of Experimentals that change hands every year.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I'm in the process of building a Sport Pilot type plane. I'm not aware of
anyone collecting from a homebuilder. The plane is Experimental which
by definition doesn't meet any particular airworthiness standards. How
would you ever prove someone failed to meet standards that don't
exist? They're built for "recreation and education". There's a lot of Experimentals that change hands every year.

Roger, when there is a suit (I am pretty sure of two*), I don't believe the claimants attorney brings up 'standards' in the courtroom. I think the claim is based upon 'My family member, who was perfectly healthy until the incident, got hurt/killed because of your plane's design/construction." And from there, the judge/jury is pretty easy to convince that the airplane was somehow unsafe (well they all are, aren't they?)

*1. John Denver's
2. A CriCri built by a guy in Colorado

DT -merely a pseudo-facade of an attorney (in his own mind at that)!

 

[mikea]

Roger, when there is a suit (I am pretty sure of two*), I don't believe the claimants attorney brings up 'standards' in the courtroom. I think the claim is based upon 'My family member, who was perfectly healthy until the incident, got hurt/killed because of your plane's design/construction." And from there, the judge/jury is pretty easy to convince that the airplane was somehow unsafe (well they all are, aren't they?)

*1. John Denver's
2. A CriCri built by a guy in Colorado

In the John Denver case, his widow sued Aircraft Spruce for selling the fuel valve that the builder put in the wrong place - that John Denver lost control while trying to turn - after taking off with fumes in the tanks he didn't check - while flying on a revoked medical.

Burt Rutan was in court so many times he stopped selling plans. He would be sued even when the builder didn't BUY the plans. Even when the builder made a "Rutan-like" and didn't buy the plans. Even when the builder put in 3 wing spars where there were supposed to be 7. Even when that builder was performing aerobatics. Even when the plane that builder made allowed him to perform aerobatics several times before the wing broke and killed him.

I was there at Oshkosh when Mike Melville told a guy in the crowd at a Burt Rutan forum to please call his plane anything but "Rutan."

 

[Aztec Driver]

What wonderful happy thoughts. Why would I want to build something if I can't sell it when I am done?


Answer me this question, Why aren't the legal fees of the winner paid by the loser in cases like these? Wouldn't that reduce the amount of ridiculous cases brought to trial? i.e. Carnahan, Denver, etc... Why does everything have to be someone else's fault. Why can't it be "accidental"?

I think I'll go sulk in the corner now that I am thoroughly depressed.

 

[mikea]

What wonderful happy thoughts. Why would I want to build something if I can't sell it when I am done?


Answer me this question, Why aren't the legal fees of the winner paid by the loser in cases like these? Wouldn't that reduce the amount of ridiculous cases brought to trial? i.e. Carnahan, Denver, etc... Why does everything have to be someone else's fault. Why can't it be "accidental"?

I think I'll go sulk in the corner now that I am thoroughly depressed.

ladies and gentlemen of the jury, PEOPLE ARE DEAD! The child is crippled for life! WHO is going to support this poor family? SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY for this tragedy!

Just be very glad you avoided that with your recent adventure.

 

[bbchien]

Of course the aircraft was not built to standards! He didn't have a production certificate! How could it possibly be up to standards!?

 

[gibbons]

Of course the aircraft was not built to standards! He didn't have a production certificate! How could it possibly be up to standards!?

Did he even file a flight plan? Oh my god!!!!!