KFWS C182 crashes shy of T82 05/09/13

hindsight2020

hindsight2020

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http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22212903/mansfield-couple-dies-in-plane-crash-in-texas-hill-country

Condolences to the couple's family and the young children they leave behind. Looks like a spinks rental 182. Weather on the Edwards plateau was gnarly on Thursday mid afternoon. Flightaware shows a really SLOW track for this flight and it does look like he took the long way about it. It shouldn't take much more than hour and a half to complete normally. I don't know if conditions were IFR at Gillespie mid afternoon but it was certainly convective.

Stay safe out there folks and don't push it weather wise beyond an honest assessment of your capabilities while IMC. these things are simply not turbine powered airliners. No reason to try to push your luck around the magenta colored stuff while in underpowered equipment and single pilot. It's supposed to be fun, not work.
 
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Ugh. Tragic:( looks like it may have plopped straight down photo isn't great but there doesn't look like any ground scaring. Very sad for their little girl.w
 
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Passenger's dad is a friend of mine. They were going to The Hangar Hotel for the weekend.Not sure if weather was IMC, but storms were in the area.
 
It was low IFR when they arrived.

KT82 092035Z AUTO 03008KT 10SM OVC010 18/17 A2994
KT82 092015Z AUTO 02010G15KT 10SM BKN008 OVC016 18/17 A2994
KT82 091955Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM BKN018 OVC023 22/20 A2995
KT82 091935Z AUTO 00000KT 7SM SCT005 SCT010 OVC016 21/20 A2996
**KT82 091855Z AUTO 26003KT 2SM +DZ BKN003 OVC013 21/20 A2997
**KT82 091835Z AUTO 00000KT 1 1/2SM +DZ BKN005 OVC010 21/2
KT82 091815Z AUTO 26003KT 1 1/2SM +DZ BKN008 OVC013 21/20
KT82 091755Z AUTO 24004KT 3SM BR OVC010 21/20 A29
KT82 091735Z AUTO 19010KT 7SM OVC010 21/20 A2995
KT82 091715Z AUTO 20006KT 4SM -DZ OVC008 21/20
KT82 091655Z AUTO 19006KT 4SM BR OVC008 21/20
KT82 091635Z AUTO 19006KT 5SM BR OVC010 21/19
KT82 091615Z AUTO 18008KT 7SM OVC010 21/19
 
Indeed. Very tragic.

I think that, sometimes, pilots forget just how challenging an approach into a field like this can be; at the end of an ILS into, say, Addison ends with a big runway with high-intensity runway lights, REILS and a rabbit; at T82, it ends with a murky view of a runway surrounded by stuff, not so clear.

I have flown the approach to T82 (when minima were at 700'), and with 3 miles reported vis, I very nearly went missed.

The plane went in almost due east of the airport, not aligned with the runway; the missed for both ends involves a straight-ahead climb to 4,500'. Clearly, for some reason we are likely never to know, a well-equipped and well-maintained plane, flown by an apparently qualified pilot, went in. The pilot may have lost situational awareness, but why?

Prayers for the family and for the child.
 
SCCutler said:
Indeed. Very tragic.

I think that, sometimes, pilots forget just how challenging an approach into a field like this can be; at the end of an ILS into, say, Addison ends with a big runway with high-intensity runway lights, REILS and a rabbit; at T82, it ends with a murky view of a runway surrounded by stuff, not so clear.

I have flown the approach to T82 (when minima were at 700'), and with 3 miles reported vis, I very nearly went missed.

The plane went in almost due east of the airport, not aligned with the runway; the missed for both ends involves a straight-ahead climb to 4,500'. Clearly, for some reason we are likely never to know, a well-equipped and well-maintained plane, flown by an apparently qualified pilot, went in. The pilot may have lost situational awareness, but why?

Prayers for the family and for the child.
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Spike, if I remember correctly, the VOR/DME A approach to T82 comes in over the Stonewall VOR & requires circling. That approach comes in from the east. I think it's the only non-GPS approach to T82. Given the weather, a pilot without GPS on an IFR approach would be east of the field. I wonder if the plane either didn't have GPS or whether the database were not current (rental).

If so, sad all around. Much better to go on down to Kerrsville & wait out the weather (or rent a car).
 
wsuffa said:
Spike, if I remember correctly, the VOR/DME A approach to T82 comes in over the Stonewall VOR & requires circling. That approach comes in from the east. I think it's the only non-GPS approach to T82. Given the weather, a pilot without GPS on an IFR approach would be east of the field. I wonder if the plane either didn't have GPS or whether the database were not current (rental).

If so, sad all around. Much better to go on down to Kerrsville & wait out the weather (or rent a car).
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You are correct in all respects. In retrospect, I wonder if that might have been what they were up to. Hard to believe that a late-model 182 with G1000 would not have a current database, but it surely would explain the crash site, wouldn't it?

Perhaps the report will shed a little light.

Dr. Dave flew that approach (the VOR/DME-A) about two hours later, with greater success.
 
SCCutler said:
You are correct in all respects. In retrospect, I wonder if that might have been what they were up to. Hard to believe that a late-model 182 with G1000 would not have a current database, but it surely would explain the crash site, wouldn't it?
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Yep, that would explain the location. Stonewall VOR is over next to Richard Becker's vineyard east of town, and close to the road that goes down through Luckenbach & on down to Boerne.

Could be any number of reasons, from lack of current GPS data to simply being a bit shorter from the arrival direction than the GPS approach. I'd think it unlikely to be a stall making the turn, but who knows. I also find it "interesting" that there was no fire (nor mention of a gas spill). Any number of things, but most likely on the VOR approach.

We'll have to wait for the report.

Perhaps the report will shed a little light.

Dr. Dave flew that approach (the VOR/DME-A) about two hours later, with greater success.
Click to expand...

How's Dr. Dave? Haven't seen nor heard from him in some time.
 
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Please tell me the garmin boxes physically let you load and fly a GPS approach with an expired database... If that is not the case, I have a bone to pick with Garmin. That's morally criminal to me, liability be damned. There is no reason a weekend warrior should opt for a VOR circle approach in lieu of a st-in GPS approach, regardless of the currency of the database. 14 CFR 91.3(b). Nuff said.

Every weekend warrior needs to take one second before flight and make an honest assessment before they get themselves past the point where you're so task saturated with basic aircraft control and navigation that you no longer have the honest ability to concurrently exercise macro level ADM and answer to themselves whether they have:
1)The inclination
2)The justification and
3)The TIME-SENSITIVE ability to embark on IMC flying from initial takeoff to landing.

#3 requires an ego check, as one can be IMC cross check 'solid' one week and not the next, due to personal and training recency reasons. If the answer to this inquiry is No, then please, for the sake of your loved ones, effing Knock It Off. Pursue VFR destination weather for your intended trip, delay departure time (two hours would have made the world o' difference on this one) or mentally prepare for the effort and flexibility required in entertaining a divert option in pursuing IMC arrivals. No harm no foul.

Remember folks, it's supposed to be fun. Just like you can't love what you do if you're hungry, you can't have any fun when you're task-saturated. If you're task saturated, you're NOT having fun.

I started this thread because I saw this news piece on TV while waiting for my wife to give birth to our healthy baby boy on Friday. Knowing that this couple's little girl will now have to embark on growing up with just the memory of what seemed to be decent and straight-headed folks, I guessed it touched a nerve with me that day. I want everybody to come home and I want general aviation to be something we can collectively enjoy instead of mourn over. We need better mentorship for the demographic of folks who either publicly or privately place the operation of private aircraft in IMC as inferior to the level of intellect required to be successful in their non-pilot professional lives. I know, I'm saying doctor killer again. I just want folks to land in one piece and go home safe.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Remember folks, it's supposed to be fun. Just like you can't love what you do if you're hungry, you can't have any fun when you're task-saturated. If you're task saturated, you're NOT having fun.
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Just to be contrarian and because it's true...

Task saturation in the training environment is fun and required to push youtk be able to handle more things at a time.

Task saturation in the real soup is also common but only to the point of getting everything done that needs to be.

It's over-saturation where things start getting missed that's bad. And we have only wreckage and an assumption to go on that task saturation was even involved here.

Completely missing tasks required may not have been because of saturation in this accident. We know tasks required were missed or there wouldn't be wreckage. The cause, we can only speculate at.

I've watched people kids critical tasks and have someone on board remind them directly simply because they forgot them, and had a checklist with the item sitting in their lap. They weren't over-saturated, just complacent.

So... I'm calling foul on the assumption but your message is still a good "gut check" one.
 
Well, the report's out, and the guy was planning on the VOR-DME approach... And CANCELED IFR 14+ miles from the airport (meaning, outside STV, which is the IAF).

Remember, ceiling was 800, vis was 1 1/2.

Sigh.

---

And yes, the Garmin boxen will allow you to load and fly an approach with expired database.
 
SCCutler said:
Well, the report's out, and the guy was planning on the VOR-DME approach... And CANCELED IFR 14+ miles from the airport (meaning, outside STV, which is the IAF).

Remember, ceiling was 800, vis was 1 1/2.

Sigh.

---

And yes, the Garmin boxen will allow you to load and fly an approach with expired database.
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What was he thinking? I'm looking for a justified excuse.
 
I have flown the T82 VOR/DME and the GPS and no surprise, I much prefer the GPS. They are both plain vanilla and there is no excuse for even thinking about a visual in the reported conditions.

Maybe he was nervous about flying the approach in real IFR under actual IMC. Even though IAPs can't be logged for currency in VMC without view limiting and safety pilot, I have developed the habit of requesting an IAP even in severe CAVU wherever I go. I do it simply to remain proficient so when I do have to execute in the slag in minimums, muscle memory makes it a non-event.
 
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Oh my god that is like a movie. I feel terrible for this family and the daughter prayers out for this girl!!
 
marcoseddi said:
Oh my god that is like a movie. I feel terrible for this family and the daughter prayers out for this girl!!
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If you mean a script that has a repeating plot-line that keeps happening like Groundhog Day, yep. Movie material.
 
This paragraph is telling....

The pilot and the passenger were traveling to Fredericksburg, Texas, to celebrate their wedding anniversary. According to two employees at Spinks Flight Center, the couple (he was the pilot and she was the passenger) were scheduled to depart at 0800, but they did not arrive at the airport until 0915. After they arrived, the passenger stayed in the car and talked on the phone for approximately 30-40 minutes. As the pilot waited for his wife to finish her call, he made a comment to one of the employees that he was concerned about "beating the weather."



Hmmm...
He should have told the woman to shut up, get off the friggin phone and load up...:mad2::mad:...

I am not sure what was smaller on this guy... his brains or his testicles.:dunno:
 
Does sound like the JFK Jr. accident....
"Ms. Bessete, we are leaving at this time. See you on the island...."
 
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There was a line of violent thunderstorms approaching the airport when they crashed. According to a FSDO and TxDot reps at a local safety meeting the C182 may have been slamed down by a microburst.

I'm not sure that running in at 800agl isn't a better option than staying IMC near cells.

In any case, the best option would have been to run away to the east, land, let the line pass, and then go back to Fredericksburg.
 
JimNtexas said:
There was a line of violent thunderstorms approaching the airport when they crashed. According to a FSDO and TxDot reps at a local safety meeting the C182 may have been slamed down by a microburst.

I'm not sure that running in at 800agl isn't a better option than staying IMC near cells.

In any case, the best option would have been to run away to the east, land, let the line pass, and then go back to Fredericksburg.
Click to expand...


Or to have left 2 hours earlier...:yes:
 
N801BH said:
This paragraph is telling....

The pilot and the passenger were traveling to Fredericksburg, Texas, to celebrate their wedding anniversary. According to two employees at Spinks Flight Center, the couple (he was the pilot and she was the passenger) were scheduled to depart at 0800, but they did not arrive at the airport until 0915. After they arrived, the passenger stayed in the car and talked on the phone for approximately 30-40 minutes. As the pilot waited for his wife to finish her call, he made a comment to one of the employees that he was concerned about "beating the weather."



Hmmm...
He should have told the woman to shut up, get off the friggin phone and load up...:mad2::mad:...
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I saw that, but it was more telling that they departed 3 hours later than scheduled and he already had Wx concerns. Get-there-itis conspired on this one.

I thought originally to send the NTSB report to my wife as a reminder to get to the airport on time, then I thought:
NO THAT'S A REALLY BAD IDEA!
 
Jaybird180 said:
I saw that, but it was more telling that they departed 3 hours later than scheduled and he already had Wx concerns. Get-there-itis conspired on this one.

I thought originally to send the NTSB report to my wife as a reminder to get to the airport on time, then I thought:
NO THAT'S A REALLY BAD IDEA!
Click to expand...

Maybe that's why I fight with my fiance so much! LOL :rofl: I would send it anyway!
 
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