Just my luck (1st XC as Private Pilot, low oil pressure)

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GauzeGuy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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GauzeGuy
I decided to take advantage of my new "license to learn" and do a long XC from KAPA to KFSD to KDLH. The way out went well!

Started back about mid morning today. Visited a couple of non-towered airports to refuel. I see marginal conditions ahead so I decide to head to KLBF (North Platte) and spend the night, which was a fortunate choice on my part.

About 20ish miles outside of North Platte, I did my routine scan of engine instruments, and :eek: Low. Oil. Pressure. :hairraise: Just below normal, but over the course of the next ten or so miles, it decreases a little bit (or so it seems...) In the end, made it down safely, but the only thing I saw below me were lots of emergency landing sites. No people, no nothing. Plus the cold night I'm sure wouldn't have been fun.

I called the club that I'm renting from, to ask about what to do next. The individual at the front desk says the standard procedure is to pay for repairs and then be reimbursed. Like hell. If I had the money to pay for aircraft repairs, I'd just buy my own damn plane. I told her that's not an option, and gave the FBO the number for the club so they can take it up with them. The oil was at the lower end of normal this morning, I added a quart anyway to make sure. There's a reason all that oil went somewhere, and until that gets figured out there's no way in God's Green Earth that I'm flying that thing out of here tomorrow.

Anyway, I need a beer. :mad2:
 
Well it looks like you made some good choices here. Did you get any information on why you got a low oil pressure indication from the mechanic?
 
DavidWhite said:
Was there any oil on the airplane anywheres?
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Yeah, there was a bit coming up over the cowling -- not very much really, but enough to make it pretty obvious there is something going on.
 
Good ADM glad you're okay and smart not to pay and then get reimbursed as than all of a sudden the bs comes where you end up paying and the club wont reimburse you..
 
Good, timely decission.

Some months ago, on one of my solo cross countries, i discontinued the flight after the oil temperature was in the red and oil pressure had dropped from the indicated green. This was during a very hot day (107 *F reported in some areas of the city).

That airplane has a "new" engine now.

Anyhow, good to hear you scanned your instruments, noticed the potential problem and did not take any chances :thumbsup:
 
Makes me wonder if a frozen breather tube clogged with ice causing an engine seal to blow out....
 
MSPAviator said:
Makes me wonder if a frozen breather tube clogged with ice causing an engine seal to blow out....
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It has been really cold out here lately. I say "here" because I'm visiting family in good ol KRAP. and the weather has been pure KRAP too. Glad I flew commercially because who knows how long I'd be stuck here even if I could go IFR it's so icy.

Hopefully you get things figured out soon. KFSD is a long trip from KAPA! I've done a lot of flying in that are and though there are "good" emergency landing spots I'm glad you didn't need to use them
 
Well, did the phone calls this morning and the shop said its likely to be a crankshaft seal that went on it. They said they pulled the dipstick this morning and there were 3 qts remaining, so I lost 2 qts somewhere along the way. Apparently they have to order parts to it won't be ready till next week.

Gave that information to the club, now time to find a different way out of this place. Oh well. Time to spare, go by...
 
GauzeGuy said:
Well, did the phone calls this morning and the shop said its likely to be a crankshaft seal that went on it. They said they pulled the dipstick this morning and there were 3 qts remaining, so I lost 2 qts somewhere along the way. Apparently they have to order parts to it won't be ready till next week.

Gave that information to the club, now time to find a different way out of this place. Oh well. Time to spare, go by...
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If I would have flown up to KRAP I would be glad to give you a ride back on my way home. but... have you looked outside lately?! :yikes:
 
Z06_Mir said:
If I would have flown up to KRAP I would be glad to give you a ride back on my way home. but... have you looked outside lately?! :yikes:
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lol, yeah, appreciate the thought! I have a rental car lined up. Now I have to figure out how to get to it. heh
 
GauzeGuy said:
Well, did the phone calls this morning and the shop said its likely to be a crankshaft seal that went on it. They said they pulled the dipstick this morning and there were 3 qts remaining, so I lost 2 qts somewhere along the way. Apparently they have to order parts to it won't be ready till next week.

Gave that information to the club, now time to find a different way out of this place. Oh well. Time to spare, go by...
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Sounds like you exercised good judgement. I am glad that I waited to read more before offering up my valuable :rofl: advice though.

Many new pilots are not aware that most aircraft engines, unlike their newer automotive counterparts generally consume oil as part of normal operation.

What plane/engine were you in and how long did it take to lose that 2 qts?

Acceptable oil usage in Lycoming engines is about .39 to .8 qts per hr (ck your poh/afm).

My Cessna 172n with a 180 engine, which holds 8 qts, was using about 1 qt every 3 or 4 hours with the old engine. Even the "new" engine is using about 1 qt every 8 hours or so.

Some people never have to add oil between oil changes. I am thinking they put in 8 qts at change and change again when they are 2 or 3 qts low.
 
EVERY engine uses oil. Cars, trucks, airplanes, boats, lawnmowers, chainsaws, whatever. Anything with piston rings.

When people think they aren't losing oil, they are looking at accumulated contaminants.

"New cars" have oil loss specs as well. And they tend to be higher for new engines, as a fresh cylinder and piston ring will leak and run both hot and oily.

Airplanes have vented crankcases, so they are more prone to LEAK, especially when full or overfull. Your C172N POH says to fill it to 8 quarts only on a long cross-country. Above 7 quarts, a significant amount of oil goes out the vent. Cars vent the crankcase into the intake manifold.
 
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JOhnH said:
Sounds like you exercised good judgement. I am glad that I waited to read more before offering up my valuable :rofl: advice though.

Many new pilots are not aware that most aircraft engines, unlike their newer automotive counterparts generally consume oil as part of normal operation.

What plane/engine were you in and how long did it take to lose that 2 qts?
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Thanks for your feedback. While I was aware that all engines will use some oil to a degree, I realize now that I have been operating under bad assumptions previously with the "acceptable loss" specification that you quoted.

That said, one thing that I do want to mention is that in the approximately 6 hour trip up (a bit more than that, IIRC), the aircraft (172N, 160hp) used approximately 1/2 qt. So, I only (again, wrongly) ASSumed, that with the trip back, I should plan on about the same loss, and that adding the quart would be more than sufficient. What ended up happening of course was the amount used for whatever reason was 4 times that - 2 qts in about 6 hours.

Initially the A & P believed a seal was damaged, however they ended up reversing course and declaring it airworthy. At least that's all the further I've heard. I could have flown back (in theory, had wx held up), but I was already well on the way home when they finally figured that out.

Unfortunately this is one of these things that was not addressed in my training to significant amount. About the only thing that was really harped on was to not OVERfill the oil. I suppose its time for some additional instruction.
 
Long trips are where you really learn. How is the airplane getting home now?
 
jesse said:
Long trips are where you really learn. How is the airplane getting home now?
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Not the first time they've had to get an aircraft back from somewhere, fortunately its just a couple hours away from KAPA, so very much doable. If they still haven't been able to recover it the next time the wx is good, I'll take care of it myself.

Just wish I would have known that is probably wasn't a big deal before I left. The initial impression I was left with is that it would be a week or so with parts, etc...
 
I would be a cautious test pilot with an engine that had a low oil pres indication with above min oil qty, lost 2 qts of oil, oil on cowling and no cause determined. Ensure compression test and overboard breather check out okay. My IO-540 will run fine down to 2.75 qts. I keep it around 7-8 qts unless going on a long xc, over mts or water. If you fly it back, fill it to max, take extra oil and stop more often.
 
Agreed. Pressure and quantity aren't really directly related in most cases until you run low enough the pump has nothing to work with.

When you said it had oil on the cowl, where exactly?

Sounds like even if they ultimately determined you didn't see what you saw (low pressure), and/or they decide you're wrong, you did the right thing and took the safest route available for your knowledge level, and kept a possibly broken airplane on the ground.

I'd want to get a really good explanation that I understood before flying it again. Maybe take someone else up and do a few laps around the airport to see if the pressure indication is still low.

As far as the "breaking down on a trip" stuff... Welcome to the club! ;)

I don't think you've really experienced the "joy" of light aircraft travel if it hasn't stranded you somewhere yet. Hahahahaha.

If you need a ride up there to do anything, holler. The 182 needs to stretch its legs. :)
 
You probably saved the $$,$$$ engine by stopping when you did instead of running out of oil. Good job.

I would bet that the cause of the blown seal was ice in the breather, does the engine usually leave anything on the ground when it is parked?

How was DLH?
 
MSPAviator said:
You probably saved the $$,$$$ engine by stopping when you did instead of running out of oil. Good job.

I would bet that the cause of the blown seal was ice in the breather, does the engine usually leave anything on the ground when it is parked?

How was DLH?
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It turns out (at least according to what I've heard) is that there wasn't a blown seal. That said, no one has said anything to me about what was wrong. I'm not the one flying it back, so I guess its water under the bridge, though it sure would be nice if someone kept me in the loop... :confused:

KDLH was good! I was a bit worried though when approach had me enter a left downwind for 27. Not sure if I'd have enough runway available. :rofl:
 
denverpilot said:
When you said it had oil on the cowl, where exactly?

Sounds like even if they ultimately determined you didn't see what you saw (low pressure), and/or they decide you're wrong, you did the right thing and took the safest route available for your knowledge level, and kept a possibly broken airplane on the ground.

I'd want to get a really good explanation that I understood before flying it again. Maybe take someone else up and do a few laps around the airport to see if the pressure indication is still low.

As far as the "breaking down on a trip" stuff... Welcome to the club! ;)

I don't think you've really experienced the "joy" of light aircraft travel if it hasn't stranded you somewhere yet. Hahahahaha.

If you need a ride up there to do anything, holler. The 182 needs to stretch its legs. :)
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Thanks!

There was a fairly small amount of oil on the top of the cowling, if I didn't know any better it would have looked like someone laid the dipstick on top of the cowling and moved it a couple times. Nothing major, just enough to make it known there was an issue of some sort.

Apparently they were going to pick it up yesterday, so that is done and over with. It was made known to me that this was a less than ideal arrangement. Ya think? Not like I enjoyed finding a different way out of there! At one time I was a bit worried about what the reaction would be, but at this point I really don't care. I think I did fairly well with the information available at the time, and only left the aircraft once the shop told me that it would be down for a while. And only then after letting the club know where it would be with contact details. As one very experienced pilot told me yesterday, there is an assumption of risk on all parts. The renter will have some element of risk in being stuck somewhere, and the aircraft owner might have to pay for maintenance away from the home airport and make arrangements to get it back. Cost of doing business.
 
If the seal would have broken there would have been a lot of oil dripping from the cowel. While I think you made a good precautionary landing without dripping oil from the cowel or belly of the plane it should have been evident that nothing unusual was going on. Having said all that critical stuff, you are learning. Good on you for being out there flying!

Don't let this "bad" experience slow you down though. Some guys would freak and never fly again.

Next time bring a couple of quarts of oil with you. ;)
 
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Geico266 said:
If the seal would have broken there would have been a lot of oil dripping from the cowel. While I think you made a good precautionary landing without dripping oil from the cowel or belly of the plane it should have been evident that nothing unusual was going on.
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There very well could have been, since I landed at night there were additional details that I probably missed... At that point, I wasn't about to try to do an exhaustive search for additional signs of problems. I had enough to clearly tell me something unusual had occurred.

Remember, there was enough oil on the engine where the shop thought it was the crank seal at first. They weren't able to tell otherwise until digging a bit deeper.
 
Well, it will be interesting to find out what they come up with, if they tell you, which they should
 
FWIW if you were so low on oil that your oil pressure fell below an acceptable value in normal flight you've lost a **LOT** of oil and have probably reached the point that major damage is going to be done.
 
Interestingly the guy who flew it back knows me on Facebook. It flew home ok and they think it does have a small leak somewhere.

The ironic part? Compass (vertical card), DG, and Foreflight WITH external GPS all failed simultaneously on him coming back to KAPA.

My only thought reading both your story and his is... ****ing rentals!
 
denverpilot said:
Interestingly the guy who flew it back knows me on Facebook. It flew home ok and they think it does have a small leak somewhere.

The ironic part? Compass (vertical card), DG, and Foreflight WITH external GPS all failed simultaneously on him coming back to KAPA.

My only thought reading both your story and his is... ****ing rentals!
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LOL!!!!

Well, good to hear I wasn't completely out of my mind... :rofl:

I wonder how long the squawk sheet is now?
 
Maybe a vacuum pump drive seal leaking trashed the pump. Yes, I am so glad I don't have to rent, but dang it sure is expensive owning too. Get back out there and fly some more.
 
RV10flyer said:
Maybe a vacuum pump drive seal leaking trashed the pump. Yes, I am so glad I don't have to rent, but dang it sure is expensive owning too. Get back out there and fly some more.
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AI seemed to be okay when I was flying it, the DG was acting up however (having to continuously reset heading to compass). Guess not a vac issue but sure glad I didn't test the theory.

I'm a bit low on AMU's right now, but I'm scheduling another long XC for January. Not sure where yet... Probably a place that's a bit warmer... :D
 
scottd said:
Glad to hear at least one leg of the trip went well. You were looking to leave a day earlier than planned (I think on Sunday). Did you end up doing that? Based on my quick look on Sunday, I think the weather was pretty close to what we were seeing during our online session.
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Yeah, sure did! Airmet Zulu / Sierra across much of NE / SD that day, overflew a few low clouds along some lakes and rivers, but pretty much stayed north of anything of significance.
 
denverpilot said:
Interestingly the guy who flew it back knows me on Facebook. It flew home ok and they think it does have a small leak somewhere.

The ironic part? Compass (vertical card), DG, and Foreflight WITH external GPS all failed simultaneously on him coming back to KAPA.

My only thought reading both your story and his is... ****ing rentals!
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Honestly - if that person (a CFI?) couldn't get back to APA from LBF just looking out the window they shouldn't be a CFI. Follow I80 to I76, hang a sharp left as soon as you see DEN tower, south until you're abeam the golf balls at Buckley AFB, and by then, should be able to see the APA tower.
 
I flew that airplane back to KAPA at night. All instruments operated normally during ground checks. I believe the extremely cold air (0 degrees F) leaking into the cabin behind the panel began to affect instruments during the climb. AI worked fine, so no vacuum problems. I arrived safely at KAPA with normal amounts of oil consumption. I noticed a small amount of oil on the motor behind the flywheel but nothing alarming.
 
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ionosphere80 said:
I flew that airplane back to KAPA at night. All instruments operated normally during ground checks. I believe the extremely cold air (0 degrees F) leaking into the cabin behind the panel began to affect instruments during the climb. AI worked fine, so no vacuum problems. I arrived safely at KAPA with normal amounts of oil consumption. I noticed a small amount of oil on the motor behind the flywheel but nothing alarming.
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Another name to add to the Colorado POA list, I assume?
 
Just curious - did they bill you for the airplane retrieval? If so, all the costs or just some?
 
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