Just looked out my window...

[TriGear28]

And saw a grown @55 man on a skateboard. We need more G.A. for Pete's sake! What are the most constructive methods for getting more people involved in aviation that you all can come up with?

Medical comes to mind for me first. I'm thinking graduated pilot scales in place of medicals for private ops. As health issues arise, a graduated scale put in place where privileges are removed only one at a time based on medical criteria. Ex. progressive Cognition or neuro issues, (Single pilot IFR out), then Multi, then Night, then complex, then Standard Cat 3+ up ops, then 2 up, then solo ops only until self ground. Wouldn't a reasonable pilot/dr. initiated adoption of realistic risk management be more productive than the 'guilty until proven innocent' administrative law approach provided by the FAA/JAR?

Ideas?

 

[SkyHog]

And saw a grown @55 man on a skateboard. We need more G.A. for Pete's sake! What are the most constructive methods for getting more people involved in aviation that you all can come up with?

Medical comes to mind for me first. I'm thinking graduated pilot scales in place of medicals for private ops. As health issues arise, a graduated scale put in place where privileges are removed only one at a time based on medical criteria. Ex. progressive Cognition or neuro issues, (Single pilot IFR out), then Multi, then Night, then complex, then Standard Cat 3+ up ops, then 2 up, then solo ops only until self ground. Wouldn't a reasonable pilot/dr. initiated adoption of realistic risk management be more productive than the 'guilty until proven innocent' administrative law approach provided by the FAA/JAR?

Ideas?

The FAA has no desire to help this one. They are not about creating and fostering safety, they are about closing their eyes and saying "We stopped the bad sick people from flying."

I applaud your thinking, but you will get nowhere.

 

[JoeSelch]

Funny. I know a 50-something man whom you might well find on a skateboard. Barefoot.
He is also an active PP-ASEL, among other things.

 

[TriGear28]

Funny. I know a 50-something man whom you might well find on a skateboard. Barefoot.
He is also an active PP-ASEL, among other things.

Sorry. No ill intent was meant. I was just thinking "Didn't I used to always hear small a/c on a day like this? and there were none.

 

[TriGear28]

The FAA has no desire to help this one. They are not about creating and fostering safety, they are about closing their eyes and saying "We stopped the bad sick people from flying."

I applaud your thinking, but you will get nowhere.

I agree that 'uphill battle' could only begin to describe the challenges involved.

This should not keep us from keeping an open mind as to how to approach the governing agencies however.

Thinking in this direction.

AME's have a high risk ratio; however, seem to be guided within a very narrow set of options which basically include Approval/Deferral/Denial. Yet we take for granted that they have to asess both the risk of each individual aviator's abilities and their risk of incapacitation, all for roughly ~$100 every 1-5 yrs. I for one, would rather have a system in place that gives more control over the risk management process to the trained medical professional, who is likely also an aviator. Of course, along with a graduated scale, would come with some additional risk of it's own to the practitioner. I do understand that medicals would be more expensive due to this risk. However I do believe that insurance companies would balance said risk better than the government would out of the box. I, for one would rather hear my AME say 'John, you can no longer can be practicing Single pilot IFR as I feel it is time for you to move on to a more relaxing level of flight responsibility unless I can determine, from tests and/or a SODA ride, that you are in a safe position to do so.' than, "The FAA has left me no option but to give you an intense battery of tests, at your own expense, after which, they may choose not to certify you to fly any powered airplane."

Does this not alleviate some risk from the FAA?

Does this not also promote the safety of flight?

Does this also not promote the business of aviation in the US?

Does this not also provide the ability for the FAA to shift some financial responsibility (cost save) during a time when it projects the need to do so?

Wouldn't this promote an environment of free communication, trust, and safety amongst all parties involved? I know many, many aviators who live in fear of what the FAA will say or, sadly, what their AME will say if they come forward with their medical issue. Even though this should not be the case, especially when it comes to their AMe.

Sure, some practitioners would choose not to sign off on many things due to risk adversion. Sure, Many would sign off too many at, perhaps, a higher fee. But wouldn't those issues work themselves out as those who would not sign off after a good risk discussion would be less used, and much more importantly, those who sign off too unresponsively would be kicked out by their own peer or government reviews and possibly be open to a high legal exposure rate?

And, yes, I see it coming already... Do AME's asses abilities? Yes they do. The FAA does as well on a medical basis. Using Neuro-Cog as an example: There are a variety of conditions for which the FAA requires a complete neuro work-up that is not required unless said soul has one of those conditions. As a result, the FAA has a bar which they have set within themselves as to what is expected for an aviator and AME's are, at some level, expected to adhear to it.

 

[bqmassey]

There was a well respected professor at my university that got around via skateboard. Nothing wrong with it.

I think what you're talking about in regards to medical privileges would be extremely complicated. There's always room for improvement, but I think the current medical process is far more understanding than it could be.

 

[TriGear28]

There was a well respected professor at my university that got around via skateboard. Nothing wrong with it.

I think what you're talking about in regards to medical privileges would be extremely complicated. There's always room for improvement, but I think the current medical process is far more understanding than it could be.

Agree on the professor 100% It may have sounded 'flippant' but no ill hearted feelings were intended.

On the medical process; however, we can agree to disagree. I haven't done a poll, but I would venture to say that 'Does the faa need to simplify and bring more clarity to the medical certification process?' would garner a similar response to 'Does the IRS need to simplify the income tax system?'

 

[ClimbnSink]

Let's say we had perfect eval tools and reasonable rules for medicals. So the bipolar lads, sudden death cardiac folks, and the junky types are stopped and everyone else healthy enough to operate a lawnmower is OK. How many more pilots is that? Not justifying the rules, I simply doubt it is a robust number stopped by the medical. Anyone have a number on deferred medicals per year? And how many of those are nondruggie/non obvious mental cases.

 

[TriGear28]

Let's say we had perfect eval tools and reasonable rules for medicals. So the bipolar lads, sudden death cardiac folks, and the junky types are stopped and everyone else healthy enough to operate a lawnmower is OK. How many more pilots is that? Not justifying the rules, I simply doubt it is a robust number stopped by the medical. Anyone have a number on deferred medicals per year? And how many of those are nondruggie/non obvious mental cases.

About 3k per year. And, considering they are often the ones with the money (retired/retiring baby boomers) I think this covers some ground as far as "promoting the business of aviation". This edict is, in fact, half of the FAA's duality of existence.

As far as 'Junky types.' I highly doubt they fly much (kind of have another habit of supposed 'higher' priority to feed. Also, what kind of AME in his right mind has ever given a 'Junkie' a medical? I strongly believe this problem corrects itself under either system as the AMe will be Out of Business at best, if not sued into the next century or in jail for having done so. Any AME in a revised system. A system in which their personal risk was elevated, would require a drug test be completed anyway.

As far as 'Bi-polar' types... who wants people with strong psychological issues in the air? Much less an AME/physician with his life's work on the line. If the psy issues is so severe they shouldn't be allowed in the air, they may just take an a/c and fly anyway. I really don't see this as a large issue as it is, to me, much like trying to 'regulate away' suicide. It is not truly possible. Which, as I recall, we had TWO of in the past few months. I have yet to hear sa to whether or not they possessed valid medicals, but I suspect they did. This did not stop them.

'Sudden death cardiac types' are perhaps the only valid one on the list. But then again, how many are flying now anyway? Remember the Dr. is in charge of balancing the 'risk of incapacitation.' It goes without saying, that they would be grounded if the risk was too high, as evaluated by a medical professional. If they are of such risk, they can, and do, continue to fly at times, and there is nothing one can do to stop a person from making such a decision. The only recourse, is to encourage them to stop the behavior as it is no longer safe. Anyway, no IFR, solo, no complex, single engine, no night? How often will one actually injure anyone other than themselves in such a situation. Not often. I think that is much more acceptable risk level, than the average sunday driver with the grand-kids in the car.

 

[tinerj]

to quote someone else. The best improvement to the medical would be change it from "have you ever had . . . " to "do you currently have . . . "

 

[Maxmosbey]

I lost my medical. With enough money and enough time jumping through hoops I could get it back. Flying is just way too expensive as it is to spend all that time and money just to fly for another year.

 

[TriGear28]

to quote someone else. The best improvement to the medical would be change it from "have you ever had . . . " to "do you currently have . . . "

X10 Great comment!

 

[TriGear28]

I lost my medical. With enough money and enough time jumping through hoops I could get it back. Flying is just way too expensive as it is to spend all that time and money just to fly for another year.

This is EXACTLY the situation I am talking about! One has either enough money to prove his/her own medical fitness to fly privately, OR enough money to fly privately, OFTEN NOT BOTH.

The idea is to provide an avenue through whick both parties are happy ideally. OR, AT LEAST, both parties are a little unhappy (compromise).

I am glad you posted your comment b/c there are thousands of pilots that are capable of assessing this very same 'self-assessment' risk and do so every day. At least the responsible majority does. The irresponsible ones? How much can be done toward that end goal? I for one, want to fly with people capable of accepting restrictions as they apply. It's important to note most people are not inherently harmful or suicidal, and as a result, more than willing to bend to limits, not outright authoritarian decisions. This breeds conceit and is the incubator of bad decisions. I think our risk 'sandbox' is big enough to allow people to make these decisions.

 

[azure]

to quote someone else. The best improvement to the medical would be change it from "have you ever had . . . " to "do you currently have . . . "

That's EXACTLY the chief problem with the FAA medical system. We aren't just excluding people with real conditions that make them unsafe to fly, we're also excluding a lot of people with a history of diagnoses and events that might or might not indicate a condition that would make them unsafe to fly. In most cases they could get a medical if they were willing to jump through enough hoops, but the process is so onerous and expensive that a lot of them simply give up.

I had a SI for my first three years of flying because of a condition I almost certainly never had, but was diagnosed with 30 years ago when imaging technology was much less sophisticated and accurate than it is today. The testing I had to go through would have been way more than I'd have been willing to pay on my own, if not for insurance. That diagnosis STILL follows me on my medicals (my AME mentioned it the other day) and the only reason I'm on a longer leash now is that I put up with the process for long enough that they have a bigger file on me. I might end up in the same boat this year because of another questionable diagnosis, but I'm not going to say anything more about that now.

Then there are all the Ritalin kids who never had ADHD but who can't prove it to the agency's satisfaction without shelling out more money than it's worth to them.

Yeah, the FAA medical insanity is partly to blame for our dwindling numbers. But I'd guess fuel prices are a bigger part of the reason, and the factor that will eventually do all of us in.

 

[azure]

The idea is to provide an avenue through whick both parties are happy ideally. OR, AT LEAST, both parties are a little unhappy (compromise).

Dr. Bruce Chien has endorsed a compromise involving a CDL medical, search the forum for it if you're curious. According to him we could have had it this year, but AOPA and EAA decided to push the idea of extending the sport pilot driver's license medical to a larger class of light aircraft (I forget what the weight and specs limits were), even though the agency had already said the idea wouldn't fly.

 

[Everskyward]

And saw a grown @55 man on a skateboard. We need more G.A. for Pete's sake! What are the most constructive methods for getting more people involved in aviation that you all can come up with?

Medical comes to mind for me first. I'm thinking graduated pilot scales in place of medicals for private ops. As health issues arise, a graduated scale put in place where privileges are removed only one at a time based on medical criteria. Ex. progressive Cognition or neuro issues, (Single pilot IFR out), then Multi, then Night, then complex, then Standard Cat 3+ up ops, then 2 up, then solo ops only until self ground. Wouldn't a reasonable pilot/dr. initiated adoption of realistic risk management be more productive than the 'guilty until proven innocent' administrative law approach provided by the FAA/JAR?

Ideas?

Trying to wrap my mind around the relationship between skateboarding and flying. You can buy a skateboard for $20-30 can't you?

 

[Sac Arrow]

And saw a grown @55 man on a skateboard. We need more G.A. for Pete's sake! What are the most constructive methods for getting more people involved in aviation that you all can come up with?

Medical comes to mind for me first. I'm thinking graduated pilot scales in place of medicals for private ops. As health issues arise, a graduated scale put in place where privileges are removed only one at a time based on medical criteria. Ex. progressive Cognition or neuro issues, (Single pilot IFR out), then Multi, then Night, then complex, then Standard Cat 3+ up ops, then 2 up, then solo ops only until self ground. Wouldn't a reasonable pilot/dr. initiated adoption of realistic risk management be more productive than the 'guilty until proven innocent' administrative law approach provided by the FAA/JAR?

Ideas?

Where are you? We see that regularly where I am. It ain't pretty, but it's there

 

[TriGear28]

That's EXACTLY the chief problem with the FAA medical system. We aren't just excluding people with real conditions that make them unsafe to fly, we're also excluding a lot of people with a history of diagnoses and events that might or might not indicate a condition that would make them unsafe to fly. In most cases they could get a medical if they were willing to jump through enough hoops, but the process is so onerous and expensive that a lot of them simply give up.

I had a SI for my first three years of flying because of a condition I almost certainly never had, but was diagnosed with 30 years ago when imaging technology was much less sophisticated and accurate than it is today. The testing I had to go through would have been way more than I'd have been willing to pay on my own, if not for insurance. That diagnosis STILL follows me on my medicals (my AME mentioned it the other day) and the only reason I'm on a longer leash now is that I put up with the process for long enough that they have a bigger file on me. I might end up in the same boat this year because of another questionable diagnosis, but I'm not going to say anything more about that now.

Then there are all the Ritalin kids who never had ADHD but who can't prove it to the agency's satisfaction without shelling out more money than it's worth to them.

Yeah, the FAA medical insanity is partly to blame for our dwindling numbers. But I'd guess fuel prices are a bigger part of the reason, and the factor that will eventually do all of us in.

Congrats on the SI that allowed you to chase the freedom of flight and the determination it takes! Successes in the system are always encouraging to the flying public. I have seen so many people who were all-but-dead keep medical cert while, at the same time, someone with some minor, or even midiagnosed, issue from years ago prevent them from excercising what should be a god given right to explore the air b/c someone, whom they never met, without the benefit of having examined both their medical situation AND ability to execute in the air, ground them indefinately without any confidence they will regain it. Within a reasonable envelope, everyone should be afforded the right to choose whether it's for them or not.

As for my medical, i could regain my expired medical on the odds of about 70/30. It would take a seemingly insurmountable amount of funds plopped down, at once, and then... cross your fingers. Then what? If denial... Gliders, lighter than air, ultralight, or MOVE. YES MOVE... It is actually cheaper but, in the remote case that my own GREAT COUNTRY provides amazingly less rights than another, YES, I WILL CONSIDER THAT! I just hope it never comes to such a thing.

If we 'Invented' powered flight, why don't we lead it into this century instead of dropping the ball.

 

[TriGear28]

Where are you? We see that regularly where I am. It ain't pretty, but it's there

The difference, as I have said, perhaps not so delicately or clearly, is that THERE IS NO COMPARISON. For short... The guy was a middle-aged man, who was bored, and it looked really sad. Especially in comparison to the fact that, he could have been FLYING instead, which, is not NEARLY as common as it used to be. The point is... I was saddened to see a middle-aged man clumsily playing with a skateboard as opposed to the blissful sound of someone enjoying flying. That sound is something i used to hear every day no matter where i have lived and is calming to me. I'm not sure many people lived through the 80's or 90's or looked into the sky in adoration. That's just me, and the 90's weren't even what most would consider the 'hayday' of aviation. I love the idea of hearing a plane above my head. Some people like sirens, some people like campires, some people like skateboards, I like planes.

I never meant any offense! But we don't all live in SoCal or some place like it.

 

[azure]

As for my medical, i could regain my expired medical on the odds of about 70/30. It would take a seemingly insurmountable amount of funds plopped down, at once, and then... cross your fingers. Then what? If denial... Gliders, lighter than air, ultralight, or

What is your AME like? If you can find an AME in Bruce's league, chances are you'll never face the possibility of denial. I realize that's a big IF and it's often hard to know... I'm still not quite sure about my AME even though this will be my third medical with him.

 

[TriGear28]

What is your AME like? If you can find an AME in Bruce's league, chances are you'll never face the possibility of denial. I realize that's a big IF and it's often hard to know... I'm still not quite sure about my AME even though this will be my third medical with him.

I like Dr. Bruce and respect his opinions. I've also spent a lot of time pouring over the medical board and seem pretty convinced that, given my medical event of 4 yrs ago, he would recommend 'go light sport' unless I really, really, want to make a living out of flying. I received my license in 94 but suffered a 'significant medical event' in 2009. I'll pm you and him and give you a better idea what's going on. I finally decided about a year ago to just go light sport. Then a couple months ago some events have come up in life that may require my wife and I to move out of country.

As I understand, the UK, France, Canada, and Australia have adopted some form or the other of a national pilots license that allows one to fly a/c they are familiar with, such as a piper cherokee day vfr with the same reqmts as a commercial truck driver. nppl/lpa/etc. The thing is, do I go for Class III/SP/MotorGlider or move and go NPAA/LAA. The Class III is the only gamble. Perhaps Npaa/laa is too somewhat, but I can fall back on SP. I can't 'fall back' from a denial. Then i'm forced to move or go motorglider. Neither of which can possibly be safer than me in my happy habitat of a piper cherokee.

These new foreign regs are also in flux as well.

judging by light a/c prices... I'm not alone in this boat. Of course fuel, ins, aging a/c, economy are factors... but too many for sale to deny the obvious 'baby boomer' dent.

I'll catch up via IM.

 

[jpower]

If we're talking about what would make the biggest difference in making GA more accessible, who cares really about the medicals. If we could bring the cost down, THAT would make the biggest difference. Flying is so expensive...the only way I can afford it is because I'm 19 and have parents who are able to pay for college and have a room I can live in at home, so I can apply money from summer jobs and internships to flying. Otherwise, no way. Now, I realize I'm something of a special case, because I'm only 19 and most pilots are older, but the money thing still holds. Unless you're addicted to flying like many of us, you'd say to yourself, "hmm...I could learn to fly, or I could take the family on a three week vacation to Tahiti." And then after you learn to fly, the expenses keep coming. Renting a little two-place plane that can fly around at a few hairs over 100 mph costs $110/hr around here. And it only goes up from there. Renting a 40 year-old airplane costs $130/hr. That's not sexy at all, and the only reason I do it is to satisfy the addiction. With only a passing interest, it would be financially inaccessible.

And after all that I didn't provide anything constructive at all. Reducing the cost of certification would take a chunk of change out of the equation, from what I understand. So would converting the rental fleet to mogas and making it MUCH more accessible at airports all over the place. I'm sure I could come up with a few more.

 

[TriGear28]

If we're talking about what would make the biggest difference in making GA more accessible, who cares really about the medicals. If we could bring the cost down, THAT would make the biggest difference. Flying is so expensive...the only way I can afford it is because I'm 19 and have parents who are able to pay for college and have a room I can live in at home, so I can apply money from summer jobs and internships to flying. Otherwise, no way. Now, I realize I'm something of a special case, because I'm only 19 and most pilots are older, but the money thing still holds. Unless you're addicted to flying like many of us, you'd say to yourself, "hmm...I could learn to fly, or I could take the family on a three week vacation to Tahiti." And then after you learn to fly, the expenses keep coming. Renting a little two-place plane that can fly around at a few hairs over 100 mph costs $110/hr around here. And it only goes up from there. Renting a 40 year-old airplane costs $130/hr. That's not sexy at all, and the only reason I do it is to satisfy the addiction. With only a passing interest, it would be financially inaccessible.

And after all that I didn't provide anything constructive at all. Reducing the cost of certification would take a chunk of change out of the equation, from what I understand. So would converting the rental fleet to mogas and making it MUCH more accessible at airports all over the place. I'm sure I could come up with a few more.

Very true. I was fortunate enough as well to have a family help me through my initial training, etc., around the same age and it is unbelievable to me that they were able to do so knowing roughly what they made. Then again, they were an order of magnitude more efficient with their money than I was until I hit around 30. LOL Makes me super grateful for having a good family, a thing a lot of people could use for sure.

Auto gas is a good ex. Oddly enough, I remember many people talking about it in the 90's with much reserve due to the cost of stc on cert a/c and being reluctant to give up a few hp in trade. Light sport a/c and many homebuilt designs have much lower fuel consumption but at the cost of labor and risk (homebuilt), gross weight (Light sport) or cost of acquisition. New a/c designs and sales were low in the 80's and most adopted models in the 90's were revamped old designs. I hate to think we'll have to wait another 10 yrs for enough new, proven designs to be flying to have another 'Renaisance' so to speak. From a financial perspective.

 

[Maxmosbey]

In my case, there are a lot of thing competing for my time. I can spend a couple thousand dollars to stay current so that I can spend a couple hundred dollars flying off to a flight breakfast a half dozen times every summer or I can do something less expensive and have just as much fun. I like to ride my motorcycle, I like to go out wheeling in my Jeep. I like to take road trips in my wife's little convertible sports car. I like to play golf. All of that I can do for considerably less than it costs to fly and without a Doctor's blessing to do it. So to get to the bottom line, GA is going to have to be competitive with other leisure activities if it wants to stay alive. It can't continue to play only to the addicts and hope to survive.

 

[DutchessFlier]

Making GA accessible.....it's not just the 55 year old on the skateboard...how about the kid who rides over to the local GA field and is hangin out next to a security gated chain link fence topped with barbed wire, looking into the 'prison' that our airports have become, with multiple warning signs, not seeing one plane moving on the field, but still holding the dream we all have (or had?).

A real appealing picture of GA we paint here.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Making GA accessible.....it's not just the 55 year old on the skateboard...how about the kid who rides over to the local GA field and is hangin out next to a security gated chain link fence topped with barbed wire, looking into the 'prison' that our airports have become, with multiple warning signs, not seeing one plane moving on the field, but still holding the dream we all have (or had?).

A real appealing picture of GA we paint here.

Schoolyard rumor 30 years ago was if you went to the local grass airport they shot at you with rocksalt. Nothing new here.

 

[Maxmosbey]

Making GA accessible.....it's not just the 55 year old on the skateboard...how about the kid who rides over to the local GA field and is hangin out next to a security gated chain link fence topped with barbed wire, looking into the 'prison' that our airports have become, with multiple warning signs, not seeing one plane moving on the field, but still holding the dream we all have (or had?).

A real appealing picture of GA we paint here.

You are right about that.

 

[TriGear28]

Making GA accessible.....it's not just the 55 year old on the skateboard...how about the kid who rides over to the local GA field and is hangin out next to a security gated chain link fence topped with barbed wire, looking into the 'prison' that our airports have become, with multiple warning signs, not seeing one plane moving on the field, but still holding the dream we all have (or had?).

A real appealing picture of GA we paint here.

Sad, but true. The first time I touched an actual a/c, it was to wash it and THAT was exhilarating! Now the youth rarely even get to 'see' one. EAA Young Eagles can't do it alone.

Might as well say 'Thanks Ed!' Ok... I named someone by name, but he exposed me to the possibility and the reality that aviation is an achievable goal in life and not just a 'mystical dream' Hope here are no legal consequences from that. LOL

 

[poadeleted21]

The best thing that could happen to the medical is for the FAA to do away with it and to send us all an apology letter stating how sorry they were for subjecting us to what might be the most oppressive government regulation in this country.

 

[TriGear28]

The best thing that could happen to the medical is for the FAA to do away with it and to send us all an apology letter stating how sorry they were for subjecting us to what might be the most oppressive government regulation in this country.

I'm not even sure what icon to give that BUT, it makes a lot of sense!

 

[W. Stewart]

And saw a grown @55 man on a skateboard. We need more G.A. for Pete's sake! What are the most constructive methods for getting more people involved in aviation that you all can come up with?
/QUOTE]


The skateboard is sure cheaper. . .

Wells