Jumpin' Jiminy!! (xpost from red board)

[etsisk]

cross posting this from red board, 'cause I really want y'all's viewpoints, too. And still need to rant some more, I guess.

So, ok, I'm on my last solo xc, and I'm at the first airport (BUY) (on the pointy end of the first leg). I call at 10 miles, then 4, then 2 (it's pretty busy around there), then I call entering the downwind on a 45*. I'm not way out there on the downwind, either - right where I'm supposed to be. As I'm lining up on the downwind, I hear a guy calling that he's turning x-wind (mind you, I'm about 1/4 the way down on my way to abeam the touchdown point). Ok, I'm looking back there, but don't see him. Then, immediately after, he says he's on the downwind. Well, so am I. I don't see him - AND THEN I DO... he's to my left, between me and the runway, passing me on the downwind leg!!

He turns a quick base and wants me to extend my downwind - which I do, in the interests of safety - but man, it really threw me off. I was behind the plane for the rest of the pattern and had one of the worst landings of my brief career. I was going to do a touch and go, but ended up just parking the plane for a bit and going inside to regroup.

I've not only never had somebody pass me on the inside in the pattern (and really, I was about 1/2 to 3/4 mile off from the airport on the downwind) - I've never even heard of someone doing that. This guy was doing t&g's so I couldn't even go around without flying up his six. Sheesh.

Sorry for the long post, but dang, you know?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Assuming you weren't flying too wide of a pattern... depending on what you were flying, where was the runway in reference to your low wing, or to your wing strut?

Even still, it was his bad, (assuming your radio was working, too) -you could talk with him if you have the time. Extend downwind & give those guys all the room they need! Hopefully that's the worst you'll ever see from your airborne brethren.

cross posting this from red board, 'cause I really want y'all's viewpoints, too. And still need to rant some more, I guess.

So, ok, I'm on my last solo xc, and I'm at the first airport (BUY) (on the pointy end of the first leg). I call at 10 miles, then 4, then 2 (it's pretty busy around there), then I call entering the downwind on a 45*. I'm not way out there on the downwind, either - right where I'm supposed to be. As I'm lining up on the downwind, I hear a guy calling that he's turning x-wind (mind you, I'm about 1/4 the way down on my way to abeam the touchdown point). Ok, I'm looking back there, but don't see him. Then, immediately after, he says he's on the downwind. Well, so am I. I don't see him - AND THEN I DO... he's to my left, between me and the runway, passing me on the downwind leg!!

He turns a quick base and wants me to extend my downwind - which I do, in the interests of safety - but man, it really threw me off. I was behind the plane for the rest of the pattern and had one of the worst landings of my brief career. I was going to do a touch and go, but ended up just parking the plane for a bit and going inside to regroup.

I've not only never had somebody pass me on the inside in the pattern (and really, I was about 1/2 to 3/4 mile off from the airport on the downwind) - I've never even heard of someone doing that. This guy was doing t&g's so I couldn't even go around without flying up his six. Sheesh.

Sorry for the long post, but dang, you know?

 

[gibbons]

Good call on your part to play it safe and leave the pattern to Himself. What type of aircraft was he flying?

Chip

 

[etsisk]

Good call on your part to play it safe and leave the pattern to Himself. What type of aircraft was he flying? Chip

Chip, we were both in 172's.

Dave, the runway was about 3/4 the way up my wing strut. I wasn't way the heck out there. Really! (Though I have been, sometimes - usually my problem is being too close in.)

 

[W.O'Boogie]

No reflection on you, but your post proves that there are educated and supposedly trained idiots out there.

You did the right things. Extended downwind. Took a break to regroup. Even a stinker of a landing is OK; the best pilots have one occasionally. If the plane is OK, you are OK and you learned something from the whole thing, then all is well.

But did you get his number for the NASA report or the Safety Counselor? Maybe the guy needs to be talked at (not to, but at. Some folks.....).

Keep going. You are almost there!!!

Winston.

 

[tom clark]

some folks are just rude. i see it from time to time. the guy who does the long straight in while the patterns packed with 1/2 dozen of us doing t+g's, or the guy who uses the right runway but flys the pattern the wrong direction cuz he's waaaay too important to cross over and enter the pattern properly. worst i saw was i had a guy land downwind once, actually touched down coming right at me when i was on short final going the opposite direction. my theorys always been, if i wouldn't do it on a checkride or with my instructor onboard i shouldn't be doing it that way. not much you can do about it. give em hell and move on. not worth bending metal. tc


ya know something else Tom. when these guys cut across midfield they're totally committed to entering the downwind. if they see you early enough they can adjust the entry point some, assuming there aren't 2 or 3 planes on the downwind that is, but if they see you late it may be a case of turn downwind inside of you or hit you. i see that midfield crossover entry all the time and have had several occasions where if i didn't get out of the way we'd both be screwed. i can't imagine placing my life in the hands of some total stranger up there, but i guess some people just have a lot of faith in their fellow pilots! not me!

 

[jesse]

I'm one to often fly extremely tight patterns. I also do a lot of simulated engine outs and power off 180's. Sometimes I will spiral from a few thousand AGL down to the runway.

I do my best to listen and look for traffic. I also make it very obvious what I'm doing on the radio. I have never had any incidents with another aircraft. If I know, think, or have the strangest feeling that there may be another aircraft I will fly a standard pattern.

To tell you the truth though..standard patterns just aren't any fun. I'd much rather be yanking and banking and learning more about the aircraft and myself.

There is a time and a place for everything though.

 

[W.O'Boogie]

I'm one to often fly extremely tight patterns. I also do a lot of simulated engine outs and power off 180's. Sometimes I will spiral from a few thousand AGL down to the runway.

I do my best to listen and look for traffic. I also make it very obvious what I'm doing on the radio. I have never had any incidents with another aircraft. If I know, think, or have the strangest feeling that there may be another aircraft I will fly a standard pattern.

To tell you the truth though..standard patterns just aren't any fun. I'd much rather be yanking and banking and learning more about the aircraft and myself.

There is a time and a place for everything though.

I agree. Go up to ROX or someplace where you are the only guy in the sky....but if you auger in, there is someone there to call the cleanup crew. Nothing worse than not being found for a while.....

 

[RotaryWingBob]

some folks are just rude. i see it from time to time. the guy who does the long straight in while the patterns packed with 1/2 dozen of us doing t+g's, or the guy who uses the right runway but flys the pattern the wrong direction cuz he's waaaay too important to cross over and enter the pattern properly.

Yeah, that's true. Flying the wrong direction is what we rotorheads do because the FARs say we have to avoid impeding the flow of fixed-wing traffic. What I find really annoying is, let's say I'm making right traffic. We get guys who take off, and do a left 180 to where I'm flying downwind.

worst i saw was i had a guy land downwind once, actually touched down coming right at me when i was on short final going the opposite direction.

Bear in mind that it is legal to use whatever runway you choose, and there are times when it may be better to land in a small tailwind because of terrain, looking into the sun, or whatever.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Chip, we were both in 172's.

Dave, the runway was about 3/4 the way up my wing strut. I wasn't way the heck out there. Really! (Though I have been, sometimes - usually my problem is being too close in.)

About mid-strut seems to be generally about right, excluding extreme variations in pilot point of eye-view for height or other factors. Also, generally better to be a little closer to airstrip rather than a little too far, in case of engine outs.

 

[gprellwitz]

Don't forget that pilots who learned in other countries might not have initially learned the 45* entry. See the Standard Overhead Join. Doesn't really explain this instance, though. (BTW, this is from the UK, where they call it the live side and the dead side. Unfortunate nomenclature, IMHO. New Zealand has the same thing, but call it the traffic side and the non-traffic side.) Also note that, just because they didn't initially learn the 45* to downwind, they should be familiar with it because it's local practice per the AIM. The Standard Overhead Join meets the FAR requirements, though.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I can't say I particularly like the idea of crossing and then joining crosswind...

 

[EdFred]

Tom, I'd be inside you as well. I have no base leg. My base leg is simply the apex of my downwind to final 180. I see no point to flying a pattern any wider than that as your experience grows.

 

[SkyHog]

ya know something else Tom. when these guys cut across midfield they're totally committed to entering the downwind. if they see you early enough they can adjust the entry point some, assuming there aren't 2 or 3 planes on the downwind that is, but if they see you late it may be a case of turn downwind inside of you or hit you. i see that midfield crossover entry all the time and have had several occasions where if i didn't get out of the way we'd both be screwed. i can't imagine placing my life in the hands of some total stranger up there, but i guess some people just have a lot of faith in their fellow pilots! not me!

I do midfield crosswind entries all the time. The situation you described can only happen if you forget that this is a 3d world, and one in which you can climb, leave the pattern, and teardrop it back onto the 45 for the downwind.

I would never turn inside someone, regardless of what kind of entry I was doing.

Etsisk - you did good by calming down before going back up. That pilot was an idiot and you didn't need to be up there with him. Personally, I'd have waited for him to land and given him a tongue lashing about being an idiot.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I can't say I particularly like the idea of crossing and then joining crosswind...

I have done it, and was tought by a CFI as one of the ways to enter the pattern. However- I still self-announced, and I noticed we did it after clearing the pattern for traffic coming on the 45. It's little different than people practing t/os and landings and staying in the pattern. If looked like it was going to make problems, I just would stay high (500' above the pattern) and do the tear drop to make the 45 with everyone else.

 

[Richard]

The only two reasons I overfly the aprt is to either check the wind sock, tetrehedron, etc, or to get myself over to the downwind pattern side. The overhead join as shown by Grant assumes the pilot already knows which rwy is in use so why the need to fly the overhead join?

OTOH, if the pilot does fly the overhead join and the opposite rwy is in use the pilot is now in the position that he should not descend into opposing traffic and he will have to fly outbound in order to position himself to properly join the pattern.

BTW: By "properly join the pattern", I am not advocating the 45 entry or other method, I am simply saying to use whatever method is safest and expedient to join the patt.

Lastly, use whatever is safe and do convey your intentions to other traffic.

 

[etsisk]

I was the one making the 45* onto the downwind. THIS guy was doing touch and goes, took off as I was coming onto the downwind, made a short turn x-wind, then onto the downwind, inside of me. Did a short base and final and did another touch and go, wash, rinse, repeat.

I dunno - I think the biggest problem was my own inexperience, plus a bit o' rudeness on his part. If I knew wtf I was doing, it probably would have been a no-brainer. But if I knew wtf I was doing, I wouldn't be the student pilot, would I??

But I sure know more now than I did Sunday morning! !!!!

 

[tom clark]

Bear in mind that it is legal to use whatever runway you choose, and there are times when it may be better to land in a small tailwind because of terrain, looking into the sun, or whatever.[/quote]

whats legal and whats safe are often mutually exclusive. and sure, there are preferred runways we use when winds are light and we don't want to annoy the homeowners who decided to build at he end of the runway. but in this situation there were perhaps 5 or 6 of us in the pattern doing t+g's on 23 and this clown lands on 5. thankfully he did make calls, he didn't indicate any problem, and he didn't respond to the numerous calls advising him 23 was the active runway. perhaps he had his volume down and thought he had the whole place to himself. thankfully he wasn't a t+g! hey, we got out of his way. i have no interest in a tombstone that says, "tom was in the right". i steer clear of the inconsiderate AND the inept as if they were one in the same! tc

 

[Dart]

See the Standard Overhead Join. ....The Standard Overhead Join meets the FAR requirements, though.

Cool graphic. Reminds me of Doc Bruce's "vulture" approach.

 

[tom clark]

I was the one making the 45* onto the downwind. THIS guy was doing touch and goes, took off as I was coming onto the downwind, made a short turn x-wind, then onto the downwind, inside of me. Did a short base and final and did another touch and go, wash, rinse, repeat.


sorry tom, i misunderstood your original post. i think the guy in the pattern has the right of way. its up to you to join safely and i have seen what you describe often and don't think it's dangerous unless the planes get too close together of course. if you're uncomfortable you could always do a 360 for spacing. its possible the guy in the pattern turned early thinking you were further out than you were. i have found its hard to see planes joining on the 45 for some reason. maybe its the head on view? or maybe he just didn't want to be behind you (or anybody) for some reason or he just flys that way. you will find the more you fly the tighter your pattern will get. but i still don't turn crosswind til 500agl and never before the end of the runway unless theres a good reason to. fwiw, tc

 

[tom clark]

I do midfield crosswind entries all the time. The situation you described can only happen if you forget that this is a 3d world, and one in which you can climb, leave the pattern, and teardrop it back onto the 45 for the downwind.


its unclear to me. are the maneuvers you mention what i am expected to do to stay out of your way?

 

[SkyHog]

I do midfield crosswind entries all the time. The situation you described can only happen if you forget that this is a 3d world, and one in which you can climb, leave the pattern, and teardrop it back onto the 45 for the downwind.


its unclear to me. are the maneuvers you mention what i am expected to do to stay out of your way?

Of course not. If I'm doing a midfield crosswind entry (Canada's suggested entry, btw), I'll be avoiding traffic and flowing in the way I should. If you were on downwind and I came in, I'd have plenty of options to enter behind you. You had said earlier that its unsafe because I'd have to either hit you or turn inside you, and that's simply not true.

 

[gismo]

Yeah, that's true. Flying the wrong direction is what we rotorheads do because the FARs say we have to avoid impeding the flow of fixed-wing traffic. What I find really annoying is, let's say I'm making right traffic. We get guys who take off, and do a left 180 to where I'm flying downwind.


Bear in mind that it is legal to use whatever runway you choose, and there are times when it may be better to land in a small tailwind because of terrain, looking into the sun, or whatever.

Yep. And we should all realize that the most important issue when flying in an airport traffic pattern isn't what kind of pattern entry to use, which runway to use, or even how far out the various legs should be, but instead we should simply strive to fit our own methods and needs in as best we can with what everyone else is doing. That doesn't mean accepting the same runway others happen to be using or never flying a straight in approach, but rather cooperating with the other pilots to make what we want work with what they want (assuming everyone is working within the actual rules). Too often it seems that some pilots focus on what they think the other pilot(s) are doing "wrong" IE not like they would or worse yet, not like they want instead of just working around/with the other pilot's.

 

[rpadula]

whats legal and whats safe are often mutually exclusive. and sure, there are preferred runways we use when winds are light and we don't want to annoy the homeowners who decided to build at he end of the runway. but in this situation there were perhaps 5 or 6 of us in the pattern doing t+g's on 23 and this clown lands on 5. thankfully he did make calls, he didn't indicate any problem, and he didn't respond to the numerous calls advising him 23 was the active runway. perhaps he had his volume down and thought he had the whole place to himself. thankfully he wasn't a t+g! hey, we got out of his way. i have no interest in a tombstone that says, "tom was in the right". i steer clear of the inconsiderate AND the inept as if they were one in the same! tc

I'd be inclined to think what this joker did was illegal and unsafe - careless or reckless to be landing 1 vs. 6!


-Rich

 

[etsisk]

Tom, I can't communicate worth a hoot, apparently. I was joining onto the downwind when this guy was taking off. I was on the downwind when he turned x-wind, then turned downwind inside of me and passed me. Would that still give him the right of way?

 

[Greebo]

As far as I can recall, right of way in the pattern is only defined in the FAR/AIM with regard to the aircraft on final. Passing you on the left was, if I remember correctly, perfectly legal. Not necessarily safe, or smart, but at the same altitude, again IIRC, the passing rules for right-of-way apply. You had it, but that doesn't mean he couldn't pass you.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong

 

[rpadula]

Interesting points, Chuck. This is definitely covered by 91.113, but I think this is going to turn into a game of Dissect the FAR (which is good because I'm brushing up):

91.113 (g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

​

Tom was approaching the airport for the purpose of landing, but was the other guy? If he is considered approaching for landing, it seems as if he could take advantage of his lower altitude for right-of-way in the downwind (and base, even) since Tom was not on final.

I'm gonna roll with the other guy NOT approaching to land quite yet. Therefore, the minute he turned x-wind to downwind, he possibly set them both on a converging course:

91.113 (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.
​

In this case, Tom would have the right-of-way.

Finally, in case they weren't quite converging, the dude clearly overtook him:

91.113 (f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
​

Tom still gets right-of-way, and the other guy should've passed him on the right.

Of course, all this assumes they were in a standard left traffic pattern. Oddly, a right pattern might negate all this?


-Rich

 

[Dart]

I was on the downwind when he turned x-wind, then turned downwind inside of me and passed me. Would that still give him the right of way?

Not taking a side here but, I have to ask, given the above scenario, what was your airspeed? You say you were already on downwind but he ended a climb out, turned downwind and managed to pass you before turning base while flying a plane of identical performance. Could you have been too slow for his tastes? That would make him rude but, not necessarily illegal.

 

[etsisk]

I was doing about 90 or so - I certainly wasn't slow, I don't think! (I sure as heck wasn't slow later - got too fast, for sure; screwed up in a number of ways on that landing).

I know this, though - next time I'm in the pattern and things get screwy, I'm just going to move on over to the upwind side and go around again and just not worry about it. I mean, dang.

I do want to say that I've got no problem hearing that it was me at fault, if I was - I know that the f-upedness that plagued my final and landing was ALL ME. But that's part of being a student, I reckon. I learn to adapt to changing circumstances by observing what happens when I don't adapt well to changing circumstances. sigh. I think mostly I needed to vent because the whole thing scared me, and that made me angry. It's tough, feeling incompetent - for whatever period of time. Don't much like feeling exquisitely mortal, either!

 

[tom clark]

Tom, I can't communicate worth a hoot, apparently. I was joining onto the downwind when this guy was taking off. I was on the downwind when he turned x-wind, then turned downwind inside of me and passed me. Would that still give him the right of way?

imho, if you were established on the downwind and clearly ahead of him in the pattern you had the right of way. i don't believe i've ever been passed in the pattern except for the bizjets and i always let them go first as they're working for a living and burning a ton of fuel! funny, as much as we all profess to our love of flying, i run into a lot of people in a big hurry. even the guy shooting t+g's doesn't want to be stuck behind anybody! imho, tc

 

[etsisk]

Yeah, I did get "cut off" by a bizjet one time - we just turned on downwind, he was 2 miles out - then he was crossing midfield and turning on downwind in front of us. By the time my CFI said "I think we just got cut off!", that sucker was rolling wheels on pavement!

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Yeah, I did get "cut off" by a bizjet one time - we just turned on downwind, he was 2 miles out - then he was crossing midfield and turning on downwind in front of us. By the time my CFI said "I think we just got cut off!", that sucker was rolling wheels on pavement!

I had the same thing happen to me at JNX when I started flying with them the 1st time back in 2000. I kid you not...I saw the whites of thier eyes. We both were like did we just get cut off...and they guy was landing right after that.

Tom...how much longer before your checkride?

 

[etsisk]

Tom...how much longer before your checkride?

I'm not saying! I'll let y'all know AFTERwards!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

funny, as much as we all profess to our love of flying, i run into a lot of people in a big hurry. even the guy shooting t+g's doesn't want to be stuck behind anybody! imho, tc

People's bad driving habits are starting to affect their flying habits.