Jepp NavData subscription question

[TangoWhiskey]

I found the following on Jepp's FAQ:

Q: I have multiple avionics systems in my aircraft that require NavData. Do I need to purchase a separate subscription for each?

A: Yes. While each supported avionics system uses Jeppesen NavData, each version is different. Most avionics systems use a modified version of Jeppesen ARINC 424 (NavData) that is specific to that system. Therefore, each system must have its own subscription because each database is different.

I don't think the question is clear; I can see that if you have a Garmin 430 and an Avidyne IFD540 you'd need separate data subscriptions ("multiple avionics systems").

What if you have a Garmin 500 and a Garmin GTN750/650 combo. Is that three subscriptions? Two? One? I could see this getting expensive in a hurry if it's per device and you have a well-equipped panel.

 

[flyingron]

You need a subscription for every radio. I believe Jepp gives you a discount on the second unit in the same aircraft. Yes, you're going to pay for 3 nav/data subscriptions plus the charts if you use them on the 500.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Thanks Ron!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Just found this, which adds more color:

https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/pilotpak/

 

[James331]

GNS series have interchangeable cards (just WAAS to WAAS, or non-WAAS to non-WAAS).

Meaning if you're cleaver you can use one subscription for two radios, or so I heard.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

GNS series have interchangeable cards (just WAAS to WAAS, or non-WAAS to non-WAAS).

Meaning if you're cleaver you can use one subscription for two radios, or so I heard.

I've heard that too; with certain versions of Skybound and not pressing certain buttons at particular times.

 

[Marauder]

You need a subscription for every radio. I believe Jepp gives you a discount on the second unit in the same aircraft. Yes, you're going to pay for 3 nav/data subscriptions plus the charts if you use them on the 500.

Only true if you buy from Jepp... If you have an all Garmin panel, the Garmin PilotPak will allow you to update all of your Garmin products under one price. It is a little bit more expensive.

 

[frfly172]

GNS series have interchangeable cards (just WAAS to WAAS, or non-WAAS to non-WAAS).

Meaning if you're cleaver you can use one subscription for two radios, or so I heard.

If you want to use one subscription for two radios, one will always be out of date. Most people who pay for one subscription,use a different card every other month.

 

[James331]

If you want to use one subscription for two radios, one will always be out of date. Most people who pay for one subscription,use a different card every other month.

My friends radios arnt, besides if your nav database is out of date you can't shoot an approach with it

 

[TangoWhiskey]

My friends radios arnt, besides if your nav database is out of date you can't shoot an approach with it

Not entirely accurate. You can if they aren't GPS/RNAV approaches.

GPS
• Approaches must be retrieved from a nav database (no manual entry)
• Not flown with an expired database
• When planning a non-WAAS GPS IAP or departure at the destination, must check RAIM
• GPS NOTAMs must be checked, and unavailable satellites deselected
• If RAIM failure occurs or no “appr arm” do not fly approach, and call ATC
• Approaches flown to GPS LNAV MDA
i. Overlay approaches
• “or GPS” must be in the title to fly IMC
• Traditional NAVAIDS must be serviceable, tuned, ID’d, displayed
• Single pilot aircraft may only fly overlays in Day VMC
ii. Primary navigational source
• Authorized, but an expired database must be checked against current FLIP
iii. Filing/Alternate Requirements
• May file for GPS-only approach but must file an alternate regardless of Wx
• May file for destination with GPS-only approach but Wx must be VFR

 

[James331]

Well we are taking RNAV databases, so well limit this to GPS approaches.

If the database is expired you can use it for enroute or arrivials and DPs if you verify the waypoints are good, but you can not shoot a GPS based approach with a expired database.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Well we are taking RNAV databases, so well limit this to GPS approaches.



If the database is expired you can use it for enroute or arrivials and DPs if you verify the waypoints are good, but you can not shoot a GPS based approach with a expired database.

Yes, what you stated is correct. However... This thread was about Nav databases.

There is no such thing as an RNAV database, unless you mean the NAV database you load into your RNAV unit (ie, GNS430/GTN650)... And that database contains both RNAV and other types of approaches, all covered by a single expiration date. And while you can't fly RNAV approaches from your expired NAV database in your RNAV unit, you can load and fly a VOR, ILS, LOC, etc. approach from your NAV database in your RNAV unit, even if it is expired, if you verify that the fixes and lat/longs as loaded from the database match the current plate.

 

[flyingron]

You don't need any sort of database to fly a VOR or LOC or ILS approach. You look up the frequency and radial information and dial it into the radio. No "fix" verification is required.
The fact the approach is in the database is a crutch in most cases (except in the odd case you need to identify a DME fix or the like).

 

[N747JB]

I used to swap my expired 421's 530W database into my 182's 430W since I don't use the 182 for IFR and if I did, I could swap them back.
My understanding with the GNS series is while you can freely swap the database between radios, for the cross fill function to work, they must have the same database installed.
Garmin "fixed" that with the GTN series, the database is unit specific, I have one pair of cards for my 650 and one set for my 750 and another card for G600 updates.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I used to swap my expired 421's 530W database into my 182's 430W since I don't use the 182 for IFR and if I did, I could swap them back.
My understanding with the GNS series is while you can freely swap the database between radios, for the cross fill function to work, they must have the same database installed.
Garmin "fixed" that with the GTN series, the database is unit specific, I have one pair of cards for my 650 and one set for my 750 and another card for G600 updates.

That's when something like this comes in handy!

 

[John Collins]

Well we are taking RNAV databases, so well limit this to GPS approaches.

If the database is expired you can use it for enroute or arrivials and DPs if you verify the waypoints are good, but you can not shoot a GPS based approach with a expired database.

Read the AFMS for many GPS units including the GNS430W/530W. Read the AIM. Both permit using an expired database if the approach data is verified to be current. So check the date on a current chart, if the date of the database is after the date of the chart, the approach may be flown with an out of date database. The AIM changed 4 years ago to reflect this in note 3 of table 1-1-6 which reads as: 3 Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database.

 

[James331]

Read the AFMS for many GPS units including the GNS430W/530W. Read the AIM. Both permit using an expired database if the approach data is verified to be current. So check the date on a current chart, if the date of the database is after the date of the chart, the approach may be flown with an out of date database. The AIM changed 4 years ago to reflect this in note 3 of table 1-1-6 which reads as: 3 Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database.

I'm not looking it up, there is something about being able to verify waypoints for everything but the approach.

Also the AIM doesn't mean jack, not a reg.

 

[John Collins]

I'm not looking it up, there is something about being able to verify waypoints for everything but the approach.

Also the AIM doesn't mean jack, not a reg.

Then remain confident in your ignorance. You know not of what you speak.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm not looking it up, there is something about being able to verify waypoints for everything but the approach.

Also the AIM doesn't mean jack, not a reg.

But the AFM supplement does (and is binding like a reg), and you'd probably be surprised to learn that there are several approach-certified GPS units out there that can legally be used to fly an RNAV approach with an expired database. So read the supplement for your unit in your airplane and do what it requires.

That is, unless you're that sure that you've nothing left to learn.

 

[EminiTrader]

I didnt know any better when i bought my plane. When im up in March I'll pay for one 430. The other will be month behind. Totally legal if u shoot approaches with the current.

 

[James331]

Then remain confident in your ignorance. You know not of what you speak.

Speak up John,

so youre saying the AIM is regulatory?

 

[James331]

But the AFM supplement does (and is binding like a reg), and you'd probably be surprised to learn that there are several approach-certified GPS units out there that can legally be used to fly an RNAV approach with an expired database. So read the supplement for your unit in your airplane and do what it requires.

That is, unless you're that sure that you've nothing left to learn.

Depends on the unit, AFM/POH, MEL etc, the AIM on the other hand doesn't matter.

All that said, probably not a good idea to be using a expired database on database reliant approaches anyways.

 

[c310flyr]

Well we are taking RNAV databases, so well limit this to GPS approaches.

If the database is expired you can use it for enroute or arrivials and DPs if you verify the waypoints are good, but you can not shoot a GPS based approach with a expired database.

Speak up John,

so youre saying the AIM is regulatory?

Wow. You have basically picked a fight with Moses about the 10 Commandments, and you are telling him it was the 4 suggestions.

John is of course right, and many of us teach it, but John is the one who has made most of us aware of it for years.
Your attitude, for someone who is just dead wrong, is really something.

It basically goes for all 430w and 530w units. Hardly a tiny share of the market

It's in the afms and that is regulatory.

Might want to read up on Julian date vs traditional date on charts and how to use it.

Keeping the database up to date is certainly a good idea but no use being ignorant. At some point, you might be traveling when the data base needs an update.

Or at least you won't look ridiculous when you call out someone who forgot more than you know.

 

[James331]

Well we are taking RNAV databases, so well limit this to GPS approaches.

If the database is expired you can use it for enroute or arrivials and DPs if you verify the waypoints are good, but you can not shoot a GPS based approach with a expired database.






Wow. You have basically picked a fight with Moses about the 10 Commandments, and you are telling him it was the 4 suggestions.

John is of course right, and many of us teach it, but John is the one who has made most of us aware of it for years.
Your attitude, for someone who is just dead wrong, is really something.

It basically goes for all 430w and 530w units. Hardly a tiny share of the market

It's in the afms and that is regulatory.

Might want to read up on Julian date vs traditional date on charts and how to use it.

Keeping the database up to date is certainly a good idea but no use being ignorant. At some point, you might be traveling when the data base needs an update.

Or at least you won't look ridiculous when you call out someone who forgot more than you know.

Lmao, sorry I didn't drink the John kool aid

 

[John Collins]

Speak up John,

so youre saying the AIM is regulatory?

Of course not. Recently I have been calling out straw man arguments. From Wikipedia:

A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

I wrote:

Read the AFMS for many GPS units including the GNS430W/530W. Read the AIM. Both permit using an expired database if the approach data is verified to be current.

So, in great straw man form, you omit the reference to the AFMS for a GNS430W/530W, and assert something I did not claim. I doubt you understand why this reference is relevant. It is ironic that your stated belief most likely came from the AIM in the first instance. I can tie my opinion to the regulations although I won't do the exercise for you. I seriously doubt you could tie your opinion (who ever you are) to any regulation on the matter.

 

[John Collins]

Lmao, sorry I didn't drink the John kool aid

That is certainly true. You drank a totally different kind of Kool-aid, the anonymous and ignorant type.

 

[ronnieh]

James, when you start arguing regulations with John Collins you are making yourself look foolish. John is pretty much the go to person on such matters. Be a man, suck it up, and tell John you appreciate the information.