Jane's getting serious...

[Bill]

Actually, my partner and I are. Looks like we've settled towards looking for a Cherokee 6/300, and we're starting to peruse the usual suspects.

From those who've owned PA-32's, any type specific gotcha's to look for?

Any good Cherokee Six owners groups to join to get the inside gouge?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Bill, PA-32s are pretty bulletproof. There are no real airframe gotchas that I'm aware of. My old PA-32R was a great airplane, and I'm thinking about buying another one.

A couple of things to look out for, though. The rear door is often subjected to abuse from well-meaning passengers who slam the door shut without noticing there is a top latch. If the top latch is in the closed position, it can tear the weather stripping, bend the latch, dent the door frame, or even bend the door, which leads to air leaks, sure, but also water leaks -- with all of the attendant issues that brings up.

Second, the inside of the tailcone is easily visible by removing the panel behind the luggage compartment. Make an initial check for hidden airframe corrosion there before paying a mechanic for a prebuy.

There is also the issue of fuel lines leaking between the wing tank and the fuel selector and there have been some corrosion issues between the tank and the spar.

 

[bstratt]

My favorite plane if I could just talk my partners into trading up!

 

[Bill]

My favorite plane if I could just talk my partners into trading up!

I only have a wife and four year old, it is my partner who is pushing harder for a 6. But, I've always liked them, and they have tons of room and are very comfortable. I like the option to bring bikes and camping gear, and like the long range (long range = much greater safety reserve on 2-3hr flights). I also like the idea of being able to bring family or friends on trips.

So, thumbs up for me. We've eyed a few that we may go and visit fairly shortly.

 

[Bill]

Bill, PA-32s are pretty bulletproof.

Thanks, Ken, that backs up what I've heard talking to some owners. They all contend that the engine is good to TBO and beyond if treated well, and the K model IO-540 has relatively few AD's on it compared to others.

They also say the PA-32 in general has less AD's than others....haven't backed that up yet.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Thanks, Ken, that backs up what I've heard talking to some owners. They all contend that the engine is good to TBO and beyond if treated well, and the K model IO-540 has relatively few AD's on it compared to others.

One thing to beware of. Often people stepping up want to squeeze a bit more cruise speed out of it but don't want to pay the price in fuel. That leads to high power settings at near peak EGT. Resist the urge to bump the throttle to 75 percent and pull the mixture below 14 gph or else you WILL be buying some cylinders. An engine monitor is a good idea.

 

[Bill]

Resist the urge to bump the throttle to 75 percent and pull the mixture below 14 gph or else you WILL be buying some cylinders. An engine monitor is a good idea.

One guy I talked to this week claimed 140kts @10,000 @ 12gph, which seems to push the bullsh!t meter into the red...am I correct?

 

[Steve]

Compare fuel burn, range & payload 6/300 vs. 6/260 before you make a final decision. How often you expect to fill all six seats?

 

[Ken Ibold]

One guy I talked to this week claimed 140kts @10,000 @ 12gph, which seems to push the bullsh!t meter into the red...am I correct?

I would be very surprised if a Cherokee Six would actually do this. Maybe a turbo running LOP, but a normally aspirated Six would be able to make only 65 percent power at 10K, and ain't no way a Six will go 140 knots at 65 percent. Plus, the book puts fuel burn at 12 gph at 55% power. At 55% you're looking at more like 120-125 kts.

 

[gprellwitz]

I've heard that when you go beyond 4-seat aircraft there's a real jump in insurance costs. Any validity?

 

[Bill]

I've heard that when you go beyond 4-seat aircraft there's a real jump in insurance costs. Any validity?

Quotes say yes. Split across a partnership, it is in the noise ASU/AMU wise.

 

[grattonja]

One guy I talked to this week claimed 140kts @10,000 @ 12gph, which seems to push the bullsh!t meter into the red...am I correct?

We are not seeing those numbers on the FG saratoga that we joined. Maybe 130ish, more like 125 on the limited travel that we have done so far. We were, at 8500 feet returning from VT, at about 14.5 GPH, seeing TAS around 127 or slightly higher. It's not a speed demon, but...

With that said, we LOVE the plane so far. There's only 3 of us if the grandparents aren't along, but my daughter loves the extra space, my wife and I like actually having elbow room up front, and the plane is solid, stable, and a very capable IFR platform. You will be able to carry just so much more than you were used to with the Archers. That part is amazing. We brought back full fuel from VT, plus a bunch of junk, and still were under gross by a couple hundred pounds.

Good hunting!

Jim G

 

[tonycondon]

ive flown a lance with all the lopresti speed mods and the 300 hp engine. we were getting about 150 knots out of it. there is no way you would get 140 out of a cherokee six. maybe that guy is the guy who always gets a tailwind.

 

[bstratt]

Quotes say yes. Split across a partnership, it is in the noise ASU/AMU wise.

Most people buy the 6 for the load capacity (luggage, golf clubs, etc.) and rarely put more than 4 people in it anyway. The one I used to rent was only insured for 4 occupied seats - if I wanted to carry more I had to get an "endorsement" from the insurance company (for a price obviously).

 

[Bill]

Most people buy the 6 for the load capacity (luggage, golf clubs, etc.) and rarely put more than 4 people in it anyway. The one I used to rent was only insured for 4 occupied seats - if I wanted to carry more I had to get an "endorsement" from the insurance company (for a price obviously).

My partner wants 4 real people plus bags and clubs, etc. I want 3 plus camping gear and folding bikes.

What is really neat is how quickly the seats go in and out of the six. Configure as needed pax vs cargo, and fly on.

 

[Ken Ibold]

ive flown a lance with all the lopresti speed mods and the 300 hp engine. we were getting about 150 knots out of it. there is no way you would get 140 out of a cherokee six. maybe that guy is the guy who always gets a tailwind.

My old Lance with gap seals, hinge covers and spats did 150 kts at 65 percent economy cruise. It was a straight, well rigged bird.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "140" was referring to mph instead of kts. That's a more realistic 122 kts.

 

[Joe B]

Any good Cherokee Six owners groups to join to get the inside gouge?

Bill,

There's no dedicated Cherokee Six group that I know of but you might want to check out:

Piper Owner's Society: http://www.piperowner.org/
Cherokee Pilot's Association: http://www.piperowner.com/

There are plenty of Six, Lance, and Saratoga owners on both boards. There's also an email list - but it seems to be populated mostly by owners of newer PA32's, which doesn't help if you've a question about older ones:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toga_party/

It hasn't been very active lately.

I've a 1988 fixed-gear Saratoga which I love. These planes are very simple systems-wise - easy to fly and take care of. As you look at planes you have to ask about useful load for each aircraft - it varies all over the lot. There's a thread going on right now on one of the boards about that: people are reporting useful loads ranging from 1,000 lbs to 1,400 lbs for Sixes. You want one of the ones with more load! Useful load on the newer models ('94 and later) is really in the dumper.

The book on my plane says that at 10K and standard temperature I should be able to do about 145 KTAS at 70%HP on 15 gph. I don't fly at 10K much (I like to breathe) but when I do get there I see about that HP and 140 KTAS. Peak EGT at that altitude is around 14 gph so 12gph would be very LOP and probably very slow. The Saratoga air intake seems to benefit some from ram effect - at cruise my MP pretty much equals altitude minus 1" per thousand. In other words there's no perceptible loss due to friction & interference within the induction system. That's impossible so I infer I'm starting from a higher pressure. Dunno if the same applies to the Six's induction system.

Regards,
Joe

 

[Capt Kirk]

My partner wants 4 real people plus bags and clubs, etc. I want 3 plus camping gear and folding bikes.

What is really neat is how quickly the seats go in and out of the six. Configure as needed pax vs cargo, and fly on.

Bill,

Typically the aircraft with club seating have higher asking prices...partly because of the club seating and partly because the club seated aircraft are newer models (I forget when club seating became an option and at what point Piper only made club seated PA32s).

Based on your mission profile you might save a bit by getting an aircraft with all forward facing seats (and some of those sport seven seat belts). One nice thing about the forward seating is that I think it is harder for younger kids seated in the middle seat to actuate the rear door in flight.

That said, I always thought the table option on the club seating would be good for the folks in the back and leg room for two in the club seating configuration can't be beat by any forward seating configuration.

Len

 

[Bill]

Bill,

Typically the aircraft with club seating have higher asking prices...partly because of the club seating and partly because the club seated aircraft are newer models (I forget when club seating became an option and at what point Piper only made club seated PA32s).

Based on your mission profile you might save a bit by getting an aircraft with all forward facing seats

My partner was all "club seating or nothing" until I found an all forward facing plane for him to sit in and look around. He's now come around to accepting forward seating.

For me, its not a deal breaker either way, I'll take a good plane regardless.

 

[James_Dean]

One guy I talked to this week claimed 140kts @10,000 @ 12gph, which seems to push the bullsh!t meter into the red...am I correct?

Bill,

My fixed gear Saratoga will true out between 137 and 145 kts at 7,000 depending upon the weight. This is running 65% power, leanest cylinder at peak and running 14.5 gph. I came back from the Ames fly-in yesterday at 1000 lbs under gross, at 2500 ft, 75% and leaned so that the RICHEST cylinder was 25 LOP. I was getting 144 kts at 14 gph and all CHT's were under 300*.


James Dean

 

[James_Dean]

We are not seeing those numbers on the FG saratoga that we joined. Maybe 130ish, more like 125 on the limited travel that we have done so far. We were, at 8500 feet returning from VT, at about 14.5 GPH, seeing TAS around 127 or slightly higher. It's not a speed demon, but...


Jim G

I can get 140 kts TAS all day long in my '83 FG Saratoga at 65%.

James Dean

 

[grattonja]

I can get 140 kts TAS all day long in my '83 FG Saratoga at 65%.

James Dean

My crew needs to get those infernal wheel farings back on, I guess

Jim G