Jabiru and the 104F limit

zaitcev

zaitcev

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Pete Zaitcev
I received an (unsolicited) issue of AOPA Pilot, where they have an article about Jabiru J230. It says: "Flight operations are not permitted above 104 degrees F." But it hits 110F in places where I live or lived every summer (in Tracy, CA, it was 117F one day). I understand that density altitude is very unfavourable anyway, but still... 104F seems a bit low. Is that an issue?
 
Is it the ambient temp or the temp of the airframe? I know that the DA20s have a dot that turns a certain color if the airframe gets to hot and flying is a no go.
 
Might have nothing to do with the DA, and might have something to do with the fuel air mixture.
 
zaitcev said:
I received an (unsolicited) issue of AOPA Pilot, where they have an article about Jabiru J230. It says: "Flight operations are not permitted above 104 degrees F." But it hits 110F in places where I live or lived every summer (in Tracy, CA, it was 117F one day). I understand that density altitude is very unfavourable anyway, but still... 104F seems a bit low. Is that an issue?
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It's a composite issue. Some materials are temperature sensitive to strength especially when you are building to minimum weights. They operate in in Australia, Australia knows heat. They put a limit on it for a reason. If it's above 104F, it is unsafe to operate by the manufacturers specification. If you're gonna break those temps, in my experience, it's gonna be a rough as hell day. I used to do it 100-200 AGL across central and west Tx and beyond in a PA 12 on pipeline patrol, and when the temps get that high, I'm wearing my helmet. Not exactly the best conditions to experience degraded structural performance when climbing heavy out of an airport....

Is that plane a Pt 23 plane or LSA?
 
The reason was explained in the article. They use a sandwich of fiberglass in the outside layers and Cormatt between them. The use of Cormatt permits to avoid carbon fibre composites. Sorry that I was unclear on it. My question deals with the operational limitations: how severe were they in practice?

P.S. To Henning's question, J230 is an LSA, although it's certified as a 4-seater with 1600 lbs gross weight in Australia. To comply with 1320 lbs limit of LSA they threw out 2 seats. A fellow PoA member Eric let me seat in his J230 and it's about the only high-wing LSA from which I can see out at least somewhat (pictured). That is why the interest.

 
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I loved my jabiru. But never flew it above that temp b/c lack of need to.
 
zaitcev said:
The reason was explained in the article. They use a sandwich of fiberglass in the outside layers and Cormatt between them. The use of Cormatt permits to avoid carbon fibre composites. Sorry that I was unclear on it. My question deals with the operational limitations: how severe were they in practice?
P.S. To Henning's question, J230 is an LSA, although it's certified as a 4-seater with 1600 lbs gross weight in Australia. To comply with 1320 lbs limit of LSA they threw out 2 seats. A fellow PoA member Eric let me seat in his J230 and it's about the only high-wing LSA from which I can see out at least somewhat (pictured). That is why the interest.

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You can't expect an open dialog on that as it is a major admission of wrong that could have serious consequences to both the pilot and potentially condemn the plane. Personally, I wouldn't fly it above the rated temp, and on a hot day I may very well be taking the readings with a spot heat gun. Every material has its strengths and weaknesses.

Ok, it's the plane I thought it was. Do they not have it certified as a 4 seat in the US? That would be surprising as CASA typically issues their Type Certificate based on US ones. You can't even develop an Experimental there.
 
Cormat and fibreglass??? Why would that allow them to avoid the use of structurally far superior and substantially lighter (but much more expensive) carbon fibre? After working with a wide variety of composite aircraft for many years the only answer I can come up with is exactly what the others pointed out...excess temp weakens the structure and your load factors get much closer to running out of their safety factor. That depends more on what resin they used for the structure and what the bonding agents were. The color of the plane makes a huge difference as well. Don't overheat or delamination can create a serious problem. Frank
 
Eric will probably be along soon to comment. His Jabiru is a sweet little bird.

My wife and I busted 100F flying 79M to Vegas a couple years ago to a July wedding. It was not comfortable at all.
 
denverpilot said:
snip... It was not comfortable at all.
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Just curious; Was it not comfortable because you knew you were near the limit, or because its characteristics changed and it flew differently?
 
Ha. 79M is an all aluminum Cessna 182.

I was remarking that flying around in 104F heat isn't for the faint of heart... Or those who don't drink massive amounts of water.

I don't see the Jabiru limit as all that important because I will happily avoid flying at 104F outside temps from now on.

In other words, "Been there done that. You can keep it." ;-)
 
You may want to browse this online copy of the J230 Pilot Operating Handbook:

http://www.jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Pilot Operating Handbooks/JP-FM-09_J230-D_POH_Rev2.pdf

Page 54 has the environmental restrictions - 38 degrees Celsius. I make that to be 100.4 Fahrenheit, not 104. I guess if you can climb to cooler air before the wings fold up you'll be OK. :rolleyes2:

But as Henning notes, Australia has a lot of desert and that is where a bunch of them are flown, and that's fair dinkum (I hope I got that bit of Strine correct.)

Intriguing planes - I've pondered building a J230 or J430 from their kits (don't need LSA as such) as a way to get most of the capabilities of a newer glass panel C-172, but at the price of an LSA. One of these days I'll need to fly one to see what I think of their control layout - a bit different than what I've trained in.
 
Eric? What's the scoop?
 
Jim Logajan said:
You may want to browse this online copy of the J230 Pilot Operating Handbook:

http://www.jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Pilot Operating Handbooks/JP-FM-09_J230-D_POH_Rev2.pdf

Page 54 has the environmental restrictions - 38 degrees Celsius. I make that to be 100.4 Fahrenheit, not 104. I guess if you can climb to cooler air before the wings fold up you'll be OK. :rolleyes2:

But as Henning notes, Australia has a lot of desert and that is where a bunch of them are flown, and that's fair dinkum (I hope I got that bit of Strine correct.)

Intriguing planes - I've pondered building a J230 or J430 from their kits (don't need LSA as such) as a way to get most of the capabilities of a newer glass panel C-172, but at the price of an LSA. One of these days I'll need to fly one to see what I think of their control layout - a bit different than what I've trained in.
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You may consider a kitplanes subscription and look up the series they did building a Jabiru on line (subscription needed for back issues). They did run into some issues during the build. They haven't run enough of this type of article for me to know whether the issues are typical, nor do I know enough builders to ask if it was typical. The issues were annoying, minor things for an experienced builder but some would have burned a newb builder.
 
Anthony said:
Eric? What's the scoop?
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I knew about the limit but thought it was an engine/oil cooling issue. I'll look into it. I've only flown a couple time above that temp in the Mooney and it was miserable plus the plane didn't fly that well.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
You may consider a kitplanes subscription and look up the series they did building a Jabiru on line (subscription needed for back issues). They did run into some issues during the build. They haven't run enough of this type of article for me to know whether the issues are typical, nor do I know enough builders to ask if it was typical. The issues were annoying, minor things for an experienced builder but some would have burned a newb builder.
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I've had a Kitplanes subscription for a few years and have read that series of articles. For anyone else interested, they were written by Bob Fritz and titled "To Launch a Light Sport." There were ten articles starting from the September 2008 issue to July 2009.

Kitplanes also had a flight review article of the SLSA J230 by Marc Cook in the January 2010 issue.

If Jabiru has corrected some of the problems Bob Fritz ran into (as suggested by Cook's later article,) then a new builder might be less likely to get burned with a more recent kit.
 
Jim Logajan said:
You may want to browse this online copy of the J230 Pilot Operating Handbook:

http://www.jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Pilot Operating Handbooks/JP-FM-09_J230-D_POH_Rev2.pdf

Page 54 has the environmental restrictions - 38 degrees Celsius. I make that to be 100.4 Fahrenheit, not 104. I guess if you can climb to cooler air before the wings fold up you'll be OK. :rolleyes2:

But as Henning notes, Australia has a lot of desert and that is where a bunch of them are flown, and that's fair dinkum (I hope I got that bit of Strine correct.)

Intriguing planes - I've pondered building a J230 or J430 from their kits (don't need LSA as such) as a way to get most of the capabilities of a newer glass panel C-172, but at the price of an LSA. One of these days I'll need to fly one to see what I think of their control layout - a bit different than what I've trained in.
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I'd see them flying around Victoria, which outside of the few weeks a year that the winds come from the north and everything burns, never sees those temps, and very occasionally I'd see one in coastal Queensland which is pretty much a Florida like climate and rarely gets above the mid 90s. Out in the bush, it's pretty much all Bonanzas, 182s, 206s and King Airs. There's also a few PC-12s operating these days. There isn't much personal light aviation that happens in Australia really. Most everything is commercial.
 
I was at the Jabiru plant in Shelbyville, TN in January and think they have things pretty well sorted out. I was interested in one because of the high gross weight in AU, the huge cargo area and the high wing. I flew a Jabiru 250 and was very unimpressed with control forces. Very heavy on rudder. Decent headroom. I would not be ashamed to own or fly one. Good engine.
I bought a FD CTSW. Better interior room. AT least as good and probably better visibility and headroom. Much poorer baggage area. Better control forces but not as good as I wish.
If I win the lotto, I'll park them all and buy a custom Tecnam P2008. Very good visibility and headroom, excellent cockpit room. Fair cargo area. Flies like a dream. Very smooth. Responsive but not too touchy.
Just my subjective opinion and worth very little. Only saying what I have done/would do with my money.
 
Anthony said:
Eric? What's the scoop?
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Here's the word from Australia through US Jabiru. The testing was to 1540# since it is certified at that weight if not LSA.

"All composite airplanes have an upper temperature limit where the resin begins to lose its strength. Above that temperature, there is a chance that the structure won’t hold up to its ultimate design load. Most composite planes have a core temperature limit—in the Diamond DA-20, for example, the core temperature is 55 C. Jabiru Aircraft chose to publish an ambient OAT limit instead of a core limit. According to Doug Smith of Jabiru Australia, the core limit for the structure of a Jabiru is 54C. That is the core temperature at which all of the structures are tested and proven to maintain their ultimate load capability. 104F is the ambient air temperature at which it was proven that a white-painted airframe soaked with direct, vertical sunlight on the ramp will NOT reach the core limit of 54C. "
 
Henning said:
I'd see them flying around Victoria, which outside of the few weeks a year that the winds come from the north and everything burns, never sees those temps, and very occasionally I'd see one in coastal Queensland which is pretty much a Florida like climate and rarely gets above the mid 90s. Out in the bush, it's pretty much all Bonanzas, 182s, 206s and King Airs. There's also a few PC-12s operating these days. There isn't much personal light aviation that happens in Australia really. Most everything is commercial.
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There is a pretty good Aussy AYA contingent.
 
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