J20 to Orlando

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
6,434
Location
Dallas, Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Dave Siciliano
Was flight planning from KADS (Addison--D/FW area) to Orlando, KISM. There is a DP from Addison to J20 which goes to Orlando. Trouble is, there is no transition from J20 to the STAR (Leese One arrival). Don't think I've ever seen this. Usually, there is a way to get from the Airway to the Arrival--a VOR is the norm. Here, J20 goes straigt to MCO. Last VOR on J20 before MCO is SZW (Seminole) which is quite a way off. Arrival has Valdosta, Ocala, Alma and Savannah: none of which show on the arrival.

Of course, I will file the jet route to Seminole, direct Ocala and leese One, but that's not what the STAR is supposed to to.

So, I call Orlando TRACON and talk through it with the controller. (As an asside, I call Tampa St. Pete FSS to get Approaces number and they tell me the number is restricted. I ask what they mean and she says I don't know, but I can't give it to you. I tell her I'm a pilot flying that route tomorrow and how to I talk to them. She says I have to call during admin hours and use the admin number. Anyway, she calls them and asks them if she can give a pilot the number and they approve--Oh the new world of private FSS!!)

I get the controller and we chat a bit while he tried to understand the issue. Then I get the Wow! There's no VOR on J20 that is on Leese One! Gooooooolllllie! So he suggests I file as I intended to above.

So give me some perspective here guys. Is this how the STAR is supposed to work? Never seen it before.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave,

I don't think it's a problem. While there may be no STAR fix on the airway, you can go direct from a VOR on the airway to OCF. It's a relatively short distance and you'll be high enough to hear it.

Alternatively, they have a different preferred routing into Orlando that bypasses J20.

I'd file it the way you plan to.
 
wsuffa said:
Dave,

I don't think it's a problem. While there may be no STAR fix on the airway, you can go direct from a VOR on the airway to OCF. It's a relatively short distance and you'll be high enough to hear it.
Click to expand...
Actually Bill, it's pretty far, but I can't measure precisely on the high altitude chart from Seminole to Ocala because Ocala isn't on the high altitude chart. It's always seemed to me that there should be a manner in which something can be flown from the high altitude chart to the STAR without having to pull out Low Altitude chats and fly a leg on there.

Seminole is also on the Low Altitude charts; so, I can measure from there. 90 miles from Seminole to Ocala and it's on V-295, but why do I have to go from High Altitude to Low altitude routing? Why not from the Jet Route to the STAR?

It's not like there isn't a lot of traffic on this route.

Dave
 
Dave,

Actually, you really don't have to go to the low altitude chart. It's just a direct VOR-VOR. One is shown on J20, the other on the STAR. Might be that they bring high-altitude traffic in a different way. Dunno.

BTW, my Jepp planner is showing a preferred high-altitude route if I run ADS-MCO. That route is from LEV, Remis via Q100, PIE via MINEE3 STAR, Destination. Now, it does show as being an IAH-MCO route, but if that were assigned your routing from ADS to LEV would be just north of IAH. My A/FD (Green book) is in the plane, so I don't know if that's a valid route or not. Just something to think about.

SOmewhere there is a list of preferred routes floating around in a database or on the internet. Forgotten where it is.
 
Yes Bill, my A/FD shows a preferred route from your area to Orlando, don't see one from here. J50 is a lead pipe cinch. Goes from just east of Dallas off the Dallas 8 DP to MCO.

Interesting, huh?

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Yes Bill, my A/FD shows a preferred route from your area to Orlando, don't see one from here. J50 is a lead pipe cinch. Goes from just east of Dallas off the Dallas 8 DP to MCO.

Interesting, huh?

Dave
Click to expand...
As in you can't get there from here. What they usually do is the approach controller just vectors you. He sees all that and goes, "I'll bet that's not what he wants...." I'd file just as you did, Dave.
 
SZW to OCF is 139 nm but to remain within the SV of both VORs along that route requires staying above 16,000 until within 40 nm of OCF so that would probably mean you couldn't do your preferred shallow descent into ISM (15000 ft in 130 nm @ 240 KTAS = 500 FPM). I think one viable alternative would be to fly J20 to the VIRHI intersection and then drop over to CTY and follow V295 to OCF and fly the STAR from there. Of course an IFR GPS would eliminate all that by allowing (among other routes) J20-IRVI direct OCF, OCF.LESEE1.
 
Despite what is in the aim, it seems like they are pushing us more and more to file direct everywhere, and then see what they clear us for. Means a little more figuring in the cockpit before taxi but I am going to start getting my clearance sooner, ie before startup, sometimes when taxiing in.
This game of trying to anticipate what they will clear us for when planning and filing, and then the mad scramble to figure the change, is getting old.
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate the support. Let me tell you what they did.

I filed DallasEight Belcher J 20, Semilole, direct Ocala.lesse1. Doin this off the top of my head after being in class all day, so cut me some slack <g>

When I called clearance, I got Hubbard Five, UIM V-18 Belcher, as filed. Who of thunk. Low altitude departure to airway, then Jet route at Belcher!

Now the arrival; pretty much as filed except after passing Ocala 'bout ten miles before Lesee, cleared direct Cermo intersection, Kissimmee. Cermo isn't on the Arrival or high altitude chart, but approach did spell it for me (twice as a matter of fact!). So it all worked out, but it's kind of unpredictable when it seems it doesn't need to be.

BTW, when Lance and I flew out last month, we Got the Dallas Eight, then direct the next VOR on some different routing we filed to stay south of weather. Wouldn't want to get the same departure twice, huh <vbg>

Dave
 
Well comin back I asked some of the locals what to do and was told to file direct to Panama City PFN then Addision ADS direct. Be prepared to go to Hevvn to stay clear of MOAs if they are active.

Launched from St Pete with 12,000 overcast headed direct PFN. At 14,000 begain getting light ice after rain. Continued up and broke out on top at 17,600. Continued on at FL180 in the clear. Shortly after level off, got a new clearance to Hevvn; PFN as filed. (May be as close as I ever get to the real place when spelled correctly ;-)) Circumnavigated several cells with tops slightly higher than me and went through a few that didn't show up on radar. Got a few bumps and some ice, but nothing big.

Then, direct YEAGR on the arrival. Little over 100 miles from YEAGR, called for and received a pilot's discretion descent to 6,000 at YEAGR. Used the Garman to compute verticle descent profile and came down just under 500 fpm to the intersection. Pitched down slightly and left all the engine controls where they were which increased ground speed to just over 200 knots against light winds.

Hey, this flying stuff can be great fun.

Best,

Dave
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top