I've decided I am going to be a pain.

EdFred

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
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Location
Michigan
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The Ed
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9D9 / 6Y9 / 88TN
Yep, moreso than usual.

Seeing that the TSA/DHS thinks that any change of destination while enroute IFR makes us a terrorist threat, I've decided that anytime I file IFR from now on, I am going to file to a location that I am not planning on going to and then change to my real destination enroute.
 
Huh? what's the story behind this?

And where do we send the bail money to??? :D
 
Nothing wrong with a little legal civil disobedience!:D
 
vontresc said:
Huh? what's the story behind this?

And where do we send the bail money to??? :D
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There are a few things that trigger you as an "issue" in the system, this happens to be one of them.
 
You rebel.

Let me know if you need a couple confederate flags to slap on the sides of the tail. That way when you're intercepted they'll know your true intent.:nono::D
 
I've changed my destination en route several times without issue, sometimes major changes (such as MHT to AGC). What actually occurs here?

Seems to me like it would do a better job of creating more work for the ATC controllers than causing any problems to TSA/DHS.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've changed my destination en route several times without issue, sometimes major changes (such as MHT to AGC). What actually occurs here?

Seems to me like it would do a better job of creating more work for the ATC controllers than causing any problems to TSA/DHS.
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Were your issues weather related?
 
EdFred said:
Were your issues weather related?
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Not really. There was weather, but nothing I couldn't have dealt with or gotten around to get to my original destination. When I diverted from MHT to AGC it was because we decided en route that it made more sense to stop at AGC and drop off one of the guys I had with me. I didn't tell ATC any of this, just said we'd like to ammend our destination. No problems.
 
It probably didn't trigger because the destination change was within reason. I plan on filing to GSP, and changing it to say, PHL.
 
Ed: I'd like to change my destination

ATC: What is your reason for changing?

Ed: To P**s in your Wheaties
 
In the airline world we've changed destinations many times enroute when the company request we divert to recover some freight. It's never questioned just amended as requested.

Is this something new?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
In the airline world we've changed destinations many times enroute when the company request we divert to recover some freight. It's never questioned just amended as requested.

Is this something new?
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Depends on your definition of "new." Since 9/11, they have been doing a continuing development some sort of super-secret criteria for deciding when a flight may be getting hijacked. One of the elements (figured out because of suspcious questions from ATC to a lot of pilots) is changing destination while en route. It appears that just changing destination isn't by itself an alarm raiser, but what other criteria they use to decide to start asking questions is somewhat obscure, probably intentionally so the bad guys don't know what not to do.

Why didn't the query you? Maybe your dispatchers are in the loop so ATC knows it's legit, not a gun to your head. Who knows? But they won't tell us...
 
Rotor&Wing said:
In the airline world we've changed destinations many times enroute when the company request we divert to recover some freight. It's never questioned just amended as requested.

Is this something new?
Click to expand...
Even post 9/11 I've changed destinations enroute. Occasionally ATC will ask why and it's almost always because of passenger request. The only time they were even a little puzzled was when we asked to land at El Paso... as we were almost overhead at 410, headed for Mexico. They asked if we had any problems.
 
Well just change your routing to MUHA, and I'm sure you'll get a couple of questions....
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on your definition of "new." Since 9/11, they have been doing a continuing development some sort of super-secret criteria for deciding when a flight may be getting hijacked.
Click to expand...

Since I've been in the industry for the past 24 years I am very aware of all the changes made since 9/11. And the FAA has kept us in the loop of the "super-secret" criteria. Remember we are part of the plan in case of an event.

Ron Levy said:
One of the elements (figured out because of suspcious questions from ATC to a lot of pilots) is changing destination while en route. It appears that just changing destination isn't by itself an alarm raiser, but what other criteria they use to decide to start asking questions is somewhat obscure, probably intentionally so the bad guys don't know what not to do.
Click to expand...

Part of our training and recurrent is in these procedures.

Ron Levy said:
Why didn't the query you? Maybe your dispatchers are in the loop so ATC knows it's legit, not a gun to your head. Who knows? But they won't tell us...
Click to expand...

Dispatch will selcal us and advise of our new destination and request we make the changes with ATC, so no, dispatch is not talking to ATC and coordinating.

And you're right, they will not tell you because you don't have a need to know.
 
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EdFred said:
It probably didn't trigger because the destination change was within reason. I plan on filing to GSP, and changing it to say, PHL.
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I'm not sure how New Hampshire and Pittsburgh are really within reason. My point was it seemed like the sort of flight that would trigger suspicion, and I don't recall being asked.
 
Sorry was thinking Atlantic City. Probably because the Aztec is so slow, it's not a concern. :P
 
tonycondon said:
Ed: I'd like to change my destination

ATC: What is your reason for changing?
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I can't imagine ATC responding to that statement with that question. I think the only question they'd have is, "Where to?"
 
roncachamp said:
I can't imagine ATC responding to that statement with that question. I think the only question they'd have is, "Where to?"
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There have been some pilots who have been queried further upon a destination change.
 
EdFred said:
Yep, moreso than usual.

Seeing that the TSA/DHS thinks that any change of destination while enroute IFR makes us a terrorist threat, I've decided that anytime I file IFR from now on, I am going to file to a location that I am not planning on going to and then change to my real destination enroute.
Click to expand...
It might have something to do with aircraft type as well.
 
EdFred said:
Sorry was thinking Atlantic City. Probably because the Aztec is so slow, it's not a concern. :P
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No slower than your Comanche. Who died and made you Felix? ;)
 
EdFred said:
It probably didn't trigger because the destination change was within reason. I plan on filing to GSP, and changing it to say, PHL.
Click to expand...

Good luck with the routing...

"November Papa India Tango Alpha, Routing change - let me know when you're ready to copy..."

Great way to see West Virginia.
 
dmccormack said:
Good luck with the routing...

"November Papa India Tango Alpha, Routing change - let me know when you're ready to copy..."

Great way to see West Virginia.
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Nah, I do it before I even hit the Litchfield VOR.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm, I dunno... I might take that bet. I think he probably has a couple (literally, two, maybe) knots on you. ;)
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Hmm, true, he just had his re-rigged, although I'll have fancy new battery cables that should make the starters work better before long. Extra 2 hp. ;)

The way I run mine I get 155-160 KTAS (pretty low power setting and that's how I get reasonable fuel burn numbers), but I can easily get 165. I've never tried to actually see what full out it'll do flat out.
 
dmccormack said:
Good luck with the routing...

"November Papa India Tango Alpha, Routing change - let me know when you're ready to copy..."

Great way to see West Virginia.
Click to expand...

Hehehe...that's what my mom calls the cat. :)
 
EdFred said:
There have been some pilots who have been queried further upon a destination change.
Click to expand...

Sure, I can see that too. Like if the pilot answered the "Where to?" question with "Springfield."
 
RMCN172RG said:
You rebel.

Let me know if you need a couple confederate flags to slap on the sides of the tail. That way when you're intercepted they'll know your true intent.:nono::D
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Return to slavery?

:eek:
 
Well I'm glad someone finally got the Cuba reference....
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Depends on your definition of "new." Since 9/11, they have been doing a continuing development some sort of super-secret criteria for deciding when a flight may be getting hijacked.
Click to expand...
Since I've been in the industry for the past 24 years I am very aware of all the changes made since 9/11. And the FAA has kept us in the loop of the "super-secret" criteria. Remember we are part of the plan in case of an event.



Originally Posted by Ron Levy
One of the elements (figured out because of suspcious questions from ATC to a lot of pilots) is changing destination while en route. It appears that just changing destination isn't by itself an alarm raiser, but what other criteria they use to decide to start asking questions is somewhat obscure, probably intentionally so the bad guys don't know what not to do.
Click to expand...
Part of our training and recurrent is in these procedures.


Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Why didn't the query you? Maybe your dispatchers are in the loop so ATC knows it's legit, not a gun to your head. Who knows? But they won't tell us...
Click to expand...
[FONT=&quot]
Dispatch will selcal us and advise of our new destination and request we make the changes with ATC, so no, dispatch is not talking to ATC and coordinating.

And you're right, they will not tell you because you don't have a need to know. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

Thank you for confirming that the government's official (though secret) position is that the airlines are the good guys and GA is assumed to be the enemy.

[/FONT]
 
roncachamp said:
I can't imagine ATC responding to that statement with that question. I think the only question they'd have is, "Where to?"
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
There have been some pilots who have been queried further upon a destination change.
Click to expand...

roncachamp said:
Sure, I can see that too. Like if the pilot answered the "Where to?" question with "Springfield."
Click to expand...

Comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?
Yes, I know you're deliberately being an asshat. The problem is, I never give my destination outside of their service area as just a city, I give the identifier. So your inquiry would just show how stupid you are.

So it would go something like this:

You: "Where to?"

Me: "Philadelphia, Papa Hotel Lima,"

You: "Where to?" also stated correctly as "Hi, I'm an ATC moron."

The "further" would be an inquiry as to WHY the change.
 
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EdFred said:
Comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?
Yes, I know you're deliberately being an asshat. The problem is, I never give my destination outside of their service area as just a city, I give the identifier. So your inquiry would just show how stupid you are.

So it would go something like this:

You: "Where to?"

Me: "Philadelphia, Papa Hotel Lima,"

You: "Where to?" also stated correctly as "Hi, I'm an ATC moron."

The "further" would be an inquiry as to WHY the change.
Click to expand...

:eek:

Honestly, try the decaffeinated brands. They can be just as tasty as the regular stuff...................:rolleyes:
 
EdFred said:
Comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?
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Sorry, what? I don't understand.

Yes, I know you're deliberately being an asshat. The problem is, I never give my destination outside of their service area as just a city, I give the identifier.
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Why do you see that as a problem? I would think that would be a good thing. But I've recently learned comprehension isn't my strong suit.

So your inquiry would just show how stupid you are.
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Inquiring "Where to?" of a pilot that's stated "I'd like to change my destination" shows how stupid I am? I don't understand, must be my weak comprehension again, can you explain?

So it would go something like this:

You: "Where to?"

Me: "Philadelphia, Papa Hotel Lima,"

You: "Where to?" also stated correctly as "Hi, I'm an ATC moron.".
Click to expand...
Really? That's odd, I would have thought it would have been more like this:

You: "I'd like to change my destination."

Me: "Where to?"

You: "Philadelphia, Papa Hotel Lima."

Me: "Cleared to Philadelphia International Airport via...."

The "further" would be an inquiry as to WHY the change.
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Why would I inquire as to WHY the change? What business is that of mine?
 
roncachamp said:
Why would I inquire as to WHY the change? What business is that of mine?
Click to expand...

I have been asked "what is the reason for the revised destination?" on several occasions. I had previously assumed that there was a new procedure in place becuase pilots were being coy about ice or low fuel and the controller was encouraged to solicit more information. It makes sense to me that its a security procedure. It was an explicit question and I think I have gotten it every time I have adjusted the plan (generally because winds were more or less than I expected).

The last time I was asked why I was stopping in Rockford (which was just short of my filed destination MSN) I answered "if this thing ran on pee I wouldn't need too" It seemed to suffice.

As for the civil disobedience aspect of it ... I went to a wedding of an old college friend who had been in the military. I wound up sharing my hotel room with one of the marines. After a night of hard celebrating we were packing up and I watched the dude take all the coathangers and stuff them in his suitcase. They were the funky ones with the hook too small to work on a conventional coatrack. I asked "huh?" his response: Oh I just do it to **** them off. I only take the "hotel ones"

I think I put misfiling in the same category.
 
twdeckard said:
After a night of hard celebrating we were packing up and I watched the dude take all the coathangers and stuff them in his suitcase. They were the funky ones with the hook too small to work on a conventional coatrack. I asked "huh?" his response: Oh I just do it to **** them off. I only take the "hotel ones"
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Then you must have paid for the room --- I haven't had a room in at least 10 years that didn't require a credit card, to which they can charge any damage or stolen room items after you leave.
 
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