It never happened to me, until today

[Unregistered]

Posting anonymously, because I am still pretty embarrassed about the entire situation.
I'll make it brief, started with not sleeping well last night, got up tired and ate a chocolate chip muffin for breakfast. Flew to pick up a guy to take him and his son to pick up his airplane, about an hour flight, mostly VFR, but about 15 minutes in the clouds going up. Center was having radar issues, so I was at 8K vs 6K, had a bit of a headache, from not sleeping, eating crap for breakfast and flying at 8K in the bumpy clouds. Landing at first destination was fine, picked my guy and his son up, departed IFR to get his airplane, another hour or so, this time at 5,000 ft in and out of the clouds, pretty bumpy, no autopilot, but nothing major until we get to the destination.
Approach has us at 3000 ft, about 2400 AGL, 6 miles out, I cancel and go straight in to an uncontrolled field, wind reported as direct crosswind 10 knots, 3700 ft paved runway. Well, we are high, but we're fast, so instead of going around like a normal pilot, I figure I can get it down without too much of an issue. Of course the float begins as I am trying to lose airspeed over the runway, I finally get it down with maybe 1000 ft left, but we are hauling butt. Lock the brakes, and in slow motion go right off the end of the runway into the grass. Taking out a runway light with the nose wheel pant and we settled in the dirt about 25 ft off the end of the runway.
The good news is no damage to the airplane other than a bruised nose fairing, no evidence of a prop strike, no nicks, paint or even dirt on the prop. But, boy did my ego take a beating!! The guys from the airport authority came out and made sure we were OK, and help us push it back to the taxiway. I offered to pay for the light and they said they had spares and not to worry about it.
How do two fairly experienced pilots run perfectly good airplane off a runway in VFR weather? Lot's of little things in the accident chain that could have and should have been avoided. The kid was asleep until we hit the dirt! I did get back in and fly home after a real close inspection, but I don't think I'll sleep tonight either.

 

[MAKG1]

Crap that sucks.

Thanks for sharing.

Can you share the "lots of little things" in the accident chain, assuming you haven't already? That could be quite educational for those of us much less experienced than you. Diving for the runway is kinda obvious, but I presume there are other things. I also presume you wouldn't have done that under normal circumstances.

 

[Henning]

Did you even consider to throw a slip in as you were floating down the runway to help slow you down? If you were high, how about pulling the nose up and slowing down to sink?

The trap that experienced pilots often fall into is that their flights usually 'go by the numbers' and they don't find themselves out of position and/or off energy by any large margin. This leaves them in a state of surprise when it happens.

 

[Unit74]

Man...I'll tell ya. No shame in full power and a positive rate. If it doesn't look good, I'll always give it a go again. I don't care what the hangar Jockie's think. Sounds like approach set you up in a bad spot and it went sideways from there.

Glad it worked out. Coulda been ridiculously expensive. I don't think you will think twice about going around next time though.

 

[Old Geek]

I had a similar experience soon after I got my certificate. A new airport, surrounded by trees, high and hot. I used full flaps and landed over halfway down the runway. Everything worked out, but it didn't feel right and it wasn't right.

Later on, I read the guidance that if you can't touch down within the first third of the the runway, go around.

 

[FastEddieB]

It's easily explained by the psychological phenomena of "task fixation".

One focuses on the task at hand - landing, taking off, completing an approach, whatever - and it can be devilishly hard to abandon that task to begin an alternative action.

Lord knows I've seen it in myself, and have to consciously battle it.*

After the fact, like here, it can be so obvious what one should have done. At the time, however, not so much.

No shame here at all - but definitely a teachable moment!


*Worst I can remember was pulling my Sky Arrow into the air, when clearly something was wrong - my passenger had inadvertently applied full nose down trim as he was trying to transmit, but pushing the wrong button. I know in my soul that problems on the takeoff roll should lead to an immediate abort - I learned that, have taught that and have tested students on it repeatedly. But damn it, I was there to take off - and I did. Like I said, powerful impulses are involved here.

 

[CTLSi]

Disagree. You are a victim of 'it can't happen to me' and 'i have gotten down in far worse shape than this' and 'i am too tired, and too stressed to do a go around'

But hindsight will let all of us second guess what you did and why. The only person that matters is you and your post-mortem examination. That's where the 'it won't happen again' comes in.

 

[Unregistered]

OP here, lots of mistakes made:
1. Tired
2. Stressed about a business situation.
3. Had 5 voicemails on cell phone after first one hour flight.
4. Obviously, too high and too fast.
5. Fixated on landing.
6. Having another pilot with more experience in the right seat, complacency?
7. Not going around when I realized we were too fast, then it was too late.
8. Crosswind was actually a direct tailwind.
Lots to think about in the last 6 or so hours.
I just posted so everyone would know it can happen to pilots with a lot a time and that are familiar with the airplane.
Again, the good news is the only damage is a couple flat spotted tires, the nose wheel pant and my ego!!

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks. That's an eye opening list, quite valuable.

 

[Shawn]

Man...are Go Arounds just not taught/practiced/though of as an option these days? I seem to hear and read about more stories where a go around seems tantamount to failure in the eyes of the pilot. I feel like they should be as second nature as a stall recovery...of course those do not go as well for some.

I have used multiple times and would not hesitate in a heartbeat to use the go around, but maybe cuz i am still and idealistic low time pilot.

Failure to me seems running off the runway.

Thanks for stepping up and sharing reminding us that complacency can kill.

 

[Unregistered]

I've done my share of go arounds, unfortunately they were mainly early in my flying career. it's funny how after 20+ years, you expect to land successfully every time, sure there is always the option to go around, but it isn't as close to the front of the brain as it should be. It is now!

Man...are Go Arounds just not taught/practiced/though of as an option these days? I seem to hear and read about more stories where a go around seems tantamount to failure in the eyes of the pilot. I feel like they should be as second nature as a stall recovery...of course those do not go as well for some.

I have used multiple times and would not hesitate in a heartbeat to use the go around, but maybe cuz i am still and idealistic low time pilot.

Failure to me seems running off the runway.

Thanks for stepping up and sharing reminding us that complacency can kill.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Man...are Go Arounds just not taught/practiced/though of as an option these days?

Heh. The crowd over on mooneyspace clutched their pearls and made "tsk, tsk" noises when I mentioned I like doing touch and goes. Dangerous, reckless behavior, or so I'm told. Examples were linked to, anecdata spewed, vitriol exchanged, minds firmly entrenched.

What was funny to me was all the people advocating "Always make a full stop landing" were posting things that indicated the only thing making touch and goes dangerous in a retractable gear airplane was attempting to change the configuration of the airplane on the roll. One story that was supposed to discourage me was an idiot that was in the habit of raising the flaps on the rollout to get more weight on the wheels and shorten his landing distance. Got the gear instead of the flaps once.

I do touch and goes. I like them. I think it "spring loads" me to go around, since that's what I do most of the time. I actually had to recently, and it was second nature. I've read that if you get porposing started in a mooney, it can get bad -fast-. I bounced a landing at a class D, got a bit of touch on the nose wheel and it was "XXX Tower, 99A going around, runway 20."

I think touch and goes aren't practiced often enough.

Thanks for stepping up and sharing reminding us that complacency can kill.

Agreed. You made a mistake, we all do, but you got the plane stopped without hurting anyone. Congrats.

 

[dtuuri]

OP here, lots of mistakes made:
1. Tired
2. Stressed about a business situation.
3. Had 5 voicemails on cell phone after first one hour flight.
4. Obviously, too high and too fast.
5. Fixated on landing.
6. Having another pilot with more experience in the right seat, complacency?
7. Not going around when I realized we were too fast, then it was too late.
8. Crosswind was actually a direct tailwind.
Lots to think about in the last 6 or so hours.
I just posted so everyone would know it can happen to pilots with a lot a time and that are familiar with the airplane.
Again, the good news is the only damage is a couple flat spotted tires, the nose wheel pant and my ego!!

IMO, you missed the most important one:

"Approach has us at 3000 ft, about 2400 AGL, 6 miles out, I cancel and go straight in to an uncontrolled field, wind reported as direct crosswind 10 knots, 3700 ft paved runway."

It was an uncontrolled field with a fielder's choice landing direction and you were at the perfect altitude to circle the field, look for traffic and check the sock. But, that isn't your first choice. Why?

dtuuri

 

[Vaflier]

Watched a Mooney come in fast on a very windy day recently. He bounced two times hard and then hit really hard on the nose wheel and we saw the dust fly off the prop on the concrete runway. He then powered up and went around. Bounced three more times and went around again. The winds were really swirling and beating him up bad. On his third attempt he finally got it down after three more bounces. He then pulled up to the fuel pumps and asked to get some fuel. The attendant told him sure no problem but what about your prop ?. He replied what about it ?. The attendant told him that maybe he better take a look for himself. About 5 inches of the prop are curled up on both tips. He said he never felt a thing even when going around twice with a bent prop. I understand the insurance company has since totaled his plane. A real shame.

 

[Hank S]

Go arounds are a standard tool in the box. Did my first one for real on my solo in '06, and from time to time since. Too high, too fast, blown wide, struggling with crosswind, just flat don't like something? Go try it again.

P.S.--I also do touch-and-goes if the field is 5000' or more in length.

 

[Geico266]

Thanks for sharing. Egos can be our worst enemy. Your senses told you it wasn't right, but your ego wouldn't listen. Been there, had to pay for that.

 

[Unregistered]

Something similar happened to me. I was a new pilot (80 to 90 hours) in a sort of unfamiliar plane (about 10 hours). I was taking a friend flying. We took off. I had a static system failure. We were VFR. The home dome is pretty basic (uncontrolled, no PAPI, etc.) with a large ditch on one side. I decided to go to the airport about 15 miles away with a longer runway and PAPI, but a slight crosswind. Nerves or something hit because I could not find the PAPI lights. Apparently, I came in fast. It was squirrelly then off the runaway I went. Luckily, just pride was bruised.

The next flight was with a CFI simulating system failures. I think this is something kind of lacking in primary training.

I now practice go-arounds, slips, no flap landings, etc. at least once a month.

The incident was a learning experience.

 

[azure]

Something similar almost happened to me a couple of years ago at a short field with only 1800 feet available landing distance (due to a displaced threshold). On that occasion I had a 10 knot direct crosswind, just like you, and let myself float far enough down the runway that going around was a dangerous option. The better decision would have been to do what you did, to plant it, lock the brakes and steer into the grass at the side of the runway. Instead, I went around and came within inches of hitting the trees on the other side of the road at the departure end of the runway. An overrun can be costly but it rarely results in serious injury. Hitting treetops on takeoff is a good way to land in the hospital.

Since then I approach every landing to a runway with limited landing distance with a point on the runway picked out such that, if I'm not firmly down by that point, I go around, no hesitation or second thoughts.

 

[Unregistered]

A couple reasons:
1. I was lined up for the runway.
2. I was listening, no traffic reported, none shown by approach.
3. In a bit of a hurry to get on the ground, it was hot and bumpy.
4. Lots of hours and a second pilot riding along.
5. It's worked out every other time, until this time! (Bangs head repeatedly)

IMO, you missed the most important one:

It was an uncontrolled field with a fielder's choice landing direction and you were at the perfect altitude to circle the field, look for traffic and check the sock. But, that isn't your first choice. Why?

dtuuri

 

[Texastaildragger]

I was told by a corporate pilot ( 30,0000+ hours) that if you fly long enough you're gonna have an incident....and I have......just learn from it.

 

[Bill]

Watched a Mooney come in fast on a very windy day recently. He bounced two times hard and then hit really hard on the nose wheel and we saw the dust fly off the prop on the concrete runway.

You get two bounces in a Mooney, the third one buys a prop and engine teardown. If the first bounce isn't bad, I'll try to settle down again, if I bounce a second time, full power and gone. If the first bounce is big, gone.

 

[FastEddieB]

I think my last go around was in a friend's Mooney, at Copperhill, TN, my home base.

I have lots of Mooney time, including lots instructing to Commercial standards.

But the vast majority of my recent hours have been in my Sky Arrow.

So when I went to hold off the Mooney, I underestimated the amount of pressure needed and touched down on the mains before I meant to, and bounced. Leveled off, tried again, bounced again. At that point I was primed to go around, and did - but was again surprised by how much right rudder was needed and did not apply enough, resulting in a bit of a left yaw/roll immediately after takeoff. Got it under control but WHEW! - it all happened so fast!

 

[dtuuri]

A couple reasons:
1. I was lined up for the runway.
2. I was listening, no traffic reported, none shown by approach.
3. In a bit of a hurry to get on the ground, it was hot and bumpy.
4. Lots of hours and a second pilot riding along.
5. It's worked out every other time, until this time! (Bangs head repeatedly)

If it would have been me in a cororate jet, keeping in mind I LOVE to land straight-in when I can to keep the costs down, I'd have been very content and at peace with my decision to circle the field in this situation. In fact, it's the default position--straight-ins only become an option if another observer on the ground or in the pattern confirms the runway in use by radio. Not chiding you here, just trying to adjust your thinking for the future.

Look, assuming you were unpressurized, descending 300'/min and about three minutes from ground zero, continuing your nice steady cruise descent would arrive you at the airport 1500' AGL, above either an upwind or downwind leg. After making the best choice of landing direction, you'd drop down the last 500' on the upwind leg, turn crosswind just beyond the end of the runway and slow to your approach speed on downwind without even needing to adjust the throttle. It would impress your high-time copilot, not popped anybody's ears and not have wakened the kid until the door opened up on the ramp. You'd have been a star, not a goat.

dtuuri

 

[Bill]

Heh. The crowd over on mooneyspace clutched their pearls and made "tsk, tsk" noises when I mentioned I like doing touch and goes. Dangerous, reckless behavior, or so I'm told. Examples were linked to, anecdata spewed, vitriol exchanged, minds firmly entrenched.

I do touch and goes in the Mooney provided runway length is sufficient. Although by the time you get the trim and flaps back to takeoff it's more like touch, roll, and go.

 

[danhagan]

Glad you had no injuries or damage ... one bucket just got a little lighter.

Most of my landings are TNG's for practice, of which at least 50% are power off 180's. I keep night current all the time (SNG's). During TNG's at least ONE will be a forced go-around, and I also blow the base to final turn on purpose to ingrain not cross controlling (usually on the go-around circuit).

I average one official go-around a year. All have been due to conflicting traffic pulling out or coyotes on the runway.

The only one that was near identical to yours was landing KFUL on vacation. Approach over the factories on short final I caught the biggest thermals ever (power to idle, full flaps, nose down and STILL could barely descend). Made the approach and saw the first 3rd of the runway go by and went straight into the go-around. After landing, the next 4 AC hit the same thing we did, forced it on and locked their brakes up before narrowly missing the retaining wall at the end.

In short, have a hair trigger for go-arounds ready. Practice them and don't be ashamed to use them when necessary (they aren't a badge of dishonor).

 

[Jay Honeck]

Just want to say to the OP: Thanks for sharing that.

I've seen enough super-long landings at our island airport to know that what you experienced is not uncommon. We've had two aircraft go off the runway in the five years I've been here, both Bonanazas, both off the SIDE of the runway, for reasons known only to them.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Although by the time you get the trim and flaps back to takeoff it's more like touch, roll, and go.

Well, there's one part I do agree with. All of the accidents that were posted had a common failure... reaching for the flaps and getting the gear while rolling.

In mine, anyway, it'll land just fine with "take off" flaps (halfway). So, I set take off flaps on base, and then I land and take off again. Of course, this was also viewed as blasphemy (thou shalt not deviate from thy POH, no matter how vague its proclamations).

I'm having a tough time seeing how I can take off with only take off flaps, but I'm suddenly a test pilot if I land with take off flaps.

 

[Unregistered]

I think my last go around was in a friend's Mooney, at Copperhill, TN, my home base.

I have lots of Mooney time, including lots instructing to Commercial standards.

But the vast majority of my recent hours have been in my Sky Arrow.

So when I went to hold off the Mooney, I underestimated the amount of pressure needed and touched down on the mains before I meant to, and bounced. Leveled off, tried again, bounced again. At that point I was primed to go around, and did - but was again surprised by how much right rudder was needed and did not apply enough, resulting in a bit of a left yaw/roll immediately after takeoff. Got it under control but WHEW! - it all happened so fast!

I will +1 this, except when it happened to me, I didn't have lots of time in the Mooney (maybe 15 hours with 250 hours total). I'd always heard about the bounce. I bounced twice and then hit the throttle. The plane darted to the left as I didn't have anywhere near enough right rudder. It was 1:00am, I'd had a bunch of problems at the departure end (they had locked the airport, my plane was on the ramp and it damn near took an act of Congress to get to my plane) and I had my son with me in the plane and my wife waiting in the parking lot for us. Lots of factors. I remember that flight every time I fly when I'm less than ideal - tired, stressed, sick, time-sensitive flight, etc.

 

[Henning]

You get two bounces in a Mooney, the third one buys a prop and engine teardown. If the first bounce isn't bad, I'll try to settle down again, if I bounce a second time, full power and gone. If the first bounce is big, gone.

That pretty much goes for any airplane, most you get to buy nose gear and a firewall as well.

 

[Bill]

Of course, this was also viewed as blasphemy (thou shalt not deviate from thy POH, no matter how vague its proclamations).

BS. I've landed the 201 several times no flaps, just to see how she did if the flaps were INOP. Came in handy, I lost an alternator on a night flight. I got the gear down and airport lights up, but by the time I went to put in flaps the zots were gone. Nice no flap landing.

And that came in double handy, as the divert field had no MX services and the closest A&P was 2hrs by car. The next day was CAVU, and the battery had recovered just enough overnight to prime and start the engine. We flew it home peg leg. So YIKES, I did a takeoff no flaps as well.

 

[ssonixx]

Well, there's one part I do agree with. All of the accidents that were posted had a common failure... reaching for the flaps and getting the gear while rolling.

In mine, anyway, it'll land just fine with "take off" flaps (halfway). So, I set take off flaps on base, and then I land and take off again. Of course, this was also viewed as blasphemy (thou shalt not deviate from thy POH, no matter how vague its proclamations).

I'm having a tough time seeing how I can take off with only take off flaps, but I'm suddenly a test pilot if I land with take off flaps.

I am not sure what kind of plane you fly, but generally speaking, there is a good reason for this. As you know, flaps not only increase drag, but also increase lift. The amount of lift increases but not in the same proportion as drag. At some point in flap travel, drag will exceed the amount of extra lift generated. A general rule of thumb is that half of the flap travel is that point. So, beyond half flaps, you are creating much more drag in excess and increasing sink rate for the same airspeed. Less than half way, you are creating more lift and reducing sink rate for the same airspeed.

This is why when you are taking off, some planes recommend partial flaps to maximize lift for a given airspeed.

Have you noticed when using half flaps that you are floating down the runway much further than you normally might?

With exception of take off, generally, flaps are either in fully or not, and again specific airframes have different characteristics. There are those folks who prefer partial deployment of flaps to control the balloon when they are deploying flaps, but I have found that it doesn't help me much and I dump them on when I need them.

 

[Unregistered]

With exception of take off, generally, flaps are either in fully or not, and again specific airframes have different characteristics. There are those folks who prefer partial deployment of flaps to control the balloon when they are deploying flaps, but I have found that it doesn't help me much and I dump them on when I need them.

I disagree (sort of). Flaps just alter the shape of the wing, but it's still just a wing. Nothing aerodynamically wrong with landing or even taking off with any setting, as long as you have enough runway.

From a human point-of-view, though, it makes sense to teach people to take off and land with only a limited number of settings, since we will have less familiarity with each the more settings we use, as well as problems getting confused when we change settings.

 

[gismo]

Well, we are high, but we're fast, so instead of going around like a normal pilot, I figure I can get it down without too much of an issue.

IMO this ("I can fix it") is all too often the second to last link in the accident chain. I realize that fatigue may have been impacting your ability to make good decisions but if you promise yourself to never, ever "figure you can" fix a problem skillfully when the very problem was caused by a lack of skill just moments ago, you are much more likely to avoid a similar scenario in the future. Chance are way too good that if you were sharp enough to deal with a severely botched approach, you wouldn't have botched the approach in the first place.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Man...are Go Arounds just not taught/practiced/though of as an option these days? I seem to hear and read about more stories where a go around seems tantamount to failure in the eyes of the pilot. I feel like they should be as second nature as a stall recovery...of course those do not go as well for some.

Not enough teaching or focus on a lot of things in some schools. I've seen way too many students, dual or solo, land long and flat/fast and cook the tires and brakes. Seems to be normal technique for some. For others, it comes later, after the PPL, as complacency and rust sets in. In any case, it breaks too many airplanes.

Dan

 

[eman1200]

2 things: 1) most importantly, thanks for sharing this experience, its good for everyone to read. And 2)

....How do two fairly experienced pilots run perfectly good airplane off a runway in VFR weather? Lot's of little things in the accident chain that could have and should have been avoided......

Two pilots didn't, one did. Own it and learn from it, you were PIC.

 

[airheadpenguin]

Two pilots didn't, one did. Own it and learn from it, you were PIC.

+1 If I'm flying right seat with you, and we haven't specified that I will have a role in the flight as a pilot the belief is that you are flying the plane and will be within your comfort zone. I'm happy to help call traffic, turn knobs, push buttons, hold charts, offer opinions etc... but being the angel over your shoulder is not a passenger role.

We all fly differently, its important to respect the roles outlined in the passenger briefing. I'm glad this all worked out though.

 

[Henning]

If you're ****ing up and I realize it, I'll call you on it lol. "Hey dude, you know we've got enough energy to do a dead stick go around right?"

 

[airheadpenguin]

Yes I'm not going to let you kill me, if it gets to that point that's different but I'm not going to play right seat pilot either.

 

[Unregistered]

2 things: 1) most importantly, thanks for sharing this experience, its good for everyone to read. And 2)



Two pilots didn't, one did. Own it and learn from it, you were PIC.

I didn't mean to imply the other pilot was responsible in any way, just making the comment that there were two experienced pilots occupying the front seats.
A friend made the comment the other day that he feels better flying by himself vs having another pilot in the right seat. I understand his thinking, it's easy to get complacent with a "helper"
But, I have owned the situation and how I handled it, it's 100% my fault!