It is so cold....

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by AggieMike88, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    428
    Location:
    KADS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Plano Pilot
    We live in a 12 year old two story townhouse. Most of the water lines are in the foundation or between floors. I have no idea why they ran that one damn line through the attic above the garage!
     
  2. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    18,970
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Frostbite and no electricity lack of heat one week, and sweating wanting the air conditioner the next. Gotta love Texas....

    80FEC50A-DDC1-4E56-8541-B27F0CF8687E.jpeg
     
    Jim K likes this.
  3. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,983
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Years ago a buddy and I were planning to enter an SCCA race in College Station. I asked a Dallas friend what to expect for weather. He told me, “Bring a swim suit, a down parka, rain gear, and sun screen. You’ll likely need ‘em all sometime during the weekend.”

    He was right. We did.
     
  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    25,822
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Here in Michigan we call that July.
     
    TailWheelChamp and NealRomeoGolf like this.
  5. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,023
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    bnt83 likes this.
  6. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,023
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    Not really, just one bit.
     
  7. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    25,822
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Not even that, mathematically.
     
    SoonerAviator likes this.
  8. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    7,854
    Location:
    Somewhere else
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Guest
    Let's trust the science. Hold on - Economics REALLY is a science:

     
  9. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,347
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    yabut, lookit all that fur! unfair competition.
     
  10. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,023
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    IEEE 754, bit 0 is the sign bit. So if exponent and fraction are both zero, then the sign bit indicates -0 or +0.
    But that's for floating point numbers. Integers are even more fun. In a computer, infinity-1 is a finite number.
     
  11. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    16,920
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    But it’s a dry -0.


    (A couple days ago)

    0C63060C-C434-45D9-8712-01337FECAE9E.png
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  12. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,074
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Texas is far away from me, but here's the BBC (outside the U.S. partisan political fray) on what failed in the power system:
    So essentially, nothing in Texas was designed to work in the cold and snow. That makes sense somewhere that rarely gets either. I guess there's no political ammo here for either fossil-fuel advocates or green-energy advocates, because it just all broke. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56085733
     
  13. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,901
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    I lost power Monday at 2:30am and still don’t have it back on yet. All of the times I watched Survivorman and thought I could do that... I was wrong!
     
  14. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,925
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    That won't stop them from trying.
     
    David Megginson, Jim K and aterry1067 like this.
  15. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,057
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    I saw some math on that. Half of the wind turbines froze up and stopped. Much less than half the fossil-fuelled plants failed, and those that did failed because winterization was never thought necessary in Texas. And the solar panels were all obscured by snow, as is common in winter, just when they're needed the most.
     
  16. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,128
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Even more of a fun fact: something like 6K Megawatts of coal-powered plants were retired over the past decade, and replaced with roughly that amount of wind/solar/green energy. Meanwhile, energy demand went up 9K Mw in that same time period due to population increases as well as general power hungry consumers. So, demand went up which put it closer and closer to capacity, and the one type of power plant that is much less susceptible to winter weather (coal) was eliminated in exchange for the "green energy" solutions. That coal power might have kept their heads above water for a few days, instead they traded it for the wind farms that couldn't produce 1/6th of their normal rated capacity during winter and low-wind scenarios. Not to mention some internal failures when the system operators began inadvertently tripping facilities offline when voltages were dropping too fast.
     
  17. aterry1067

    aterry1067 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2020
    Messages:
    80
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Alpha_Delta_Tango
  18. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,065
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    Nonsense. They rely on government subsidies and efforts by those in power to increase the cost of fossil fuels so alternatives are more competitive. We are in the process of giving up energy independence and national security to satisfy political agendas, and the country will then be again at the mercy of unstable governments that can dictate the price of oil.
     
    Bill, Ravioli and Dan Thomas like this.
  19. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,057
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    There's cold, and then there's cold. Texas wasn't cold enough to get just snow; it got ice, which iced up the blades and probably the hubs, preventing pitch changes. Antarctica will be really cold and really dry most of the time, so icing isn't a hassle. I would think that the cold would make more trouble inside the nacelle, gelling oils and greases and so on. A lot of electronics don't work below -40, either.

    There was a famous ice storm in Ontario and Quebec in 1998. Powerlines got loaded up with ice and pulled their towers down, leaving millions without power. In one Quebec city, the mayor got the bright idea of using a railroad locomotive as an emergency generator for some essential-services buildings. The train crews deliberately derailed one and drove it down a city street and connected it to the buildings.
    https://steemit.com/history/@kiligi...rt-5-postscript-what-happened-in-my-home-town
     
  20. AlleyCat67

    AlleyCat67 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AleyCat67
    You think we’re going to have to buy our sunshine from overseas?
     
    aterry1067 likes this.
  21. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    15,029
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Noel
    lots of equipment for solar power made in the USA eh?
     
    GRG55 likes this.
  22. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,057
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    The real problem is the lack of understanding of the limitations of wind and solar. It takes huge areas of solar panels to generate useful power, and they'll make max power ONLY on bright, cloudless days when the panels are completely clear of ice or snow or dirt and are directly facing the sun and when the sun is directly overhead, meaning minimum atmospheric absorption of the solar radiation. The rest of the time they're way below 100% capacity, and of course at night they're no good at all.

    Turbines have max wind limits and must shut down when the wind is too strong. When the wind is weaker they can't generate max power; in fact, most are only generating 30-35% of nameplate capacity, on average, even in ideal wind territory. And high-pressure weather systems mean little wind, and extremes of temperatures right when we need that power.

    Neither of these things come anywhere close to the outputs of fossil-fuelled plants or hydroelectric dams. It would take, for instance, 1700 1.5-MW turbines to replace the 2800 MW Revelstoke dam in my home province of BC. And that's ONLY when the wind is at an ideal speed. Just imagine the amount of forest that would need to be cut down, and the roads and powerline rights-of-way that would need to be bulldozed to accommodate all those things. And they'd all need to be on mountaintops; the valleys kill the winds.

    Someone has done the math on the areas required for enough of these "green" sources to replace all US fossil-fuelled generation. It's a huge area, and who wants it next door?

    Sadly, the citizens of western nations are going to have to learn all this the hard way. It's anyone who knows anything about electricity that is skeptical. Elon Musk just said that we would need to double power capacity if we all go to electric cars. BC Hydro says that 15 more dams would be needed to power an all-electric vehicle fleet in BC; "which valleys would you lie flooded?" they asked.

    Physics is hard. Facts hurt.
     
    SoonerAviator, Bill and Jim K like this.
  23. TCABM

    TCABM Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,718
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3G
    Yup. Intermittent and/or variable generation is unsuitable for base load. And the more intermittent and/or variable generation is part of the grid, the more thermal is needed for base load as as base demand increases.
     
    Bill and Jumpmaster like this.
  24. aterry1067

    aterry1067 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2020
    Messages:
    80
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Alpha_Delta_Tango

    Thanks! That is some interesting reading. I remember reading about generator ships providing emer power to port cities during WWII. After trying to find what I was reading, it appears that off-shore power plants are becoming a thing. Who knew? I also remember support boats being plugged in to the LHD I was on a couple times, providing what I assumed to be power and water treatment.

    https://www.navyhistory.org/2014/03...hip-to-shore-power-for-humanitarian-services/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powership
    https://www.floatingpowerplant.com/
    https://www.foronuclear.org/en/updates/in-depth/what-is-a-floating-nuclear-power-plant/



    The ice makes a lot more sense to freezing moving equipment. But, there are wind farms all over the world, in many places with harsher weather such as Norway, Alaska, Sweden, etc. Those places see cold, ice, snow, and rain all the time and they seem to be doing OK. I understand hindsight is 20/20 though, but maybe they could begin to winterize their power grid (or completely rethink their strategy) since these "once in a lifetime" storms are happening on a fairly regular basis. ERCOT has a lot to answer for and should be held responsible.

    https://www.onlyinyourstate.com/texas/winter-storms-tx/
     
  25. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,347
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    See posted everywhere now. Unsure of relevance. Seek input.
     

    Attached Files:

    aterry1067 likes this.
  26. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    2,424
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NRG
    Those are pretty low. Remind me not to work there.
     
    Scott@KTYR and TCABM like this.
  27. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    8,899
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    It's exactly like an aeroplane. Try to operate outside the design envelope (including the thermal range of the specified equipment & installation) and things happen (or don't happen) the way one might expect. Just a different variation of a smoking hole in the ground.

    At least its a "home grown" problem with the potential for domestic solutions to be implemented...unlike say medical PPE and prescription drugs, which has been all but entirely outsourced to our "strategic partner" China, as we discovered to our dismay last year.

    I suspect it will be difficult to make a case that Texas should spend the money to winterize wind turbines, solar farms and petroleum production facilities for an event that may not happen again for a very long time. Are the rate payers willing to foot the very considerable bill?

    One option that might be worth looking at is to install distributed LNG liquifaction and storage capacity with standby gas generation at multiple locations throughout the region. When you're dealing with a cryogenic liquid energy supply at -260 deg F a mere -15 deg day is no problem. ;)
    (to be serious, these are common on gas systems in regions where the gas supply comes in from a long distance pipeline, and specifically installed to deal with public emergencies when the piped gas supply might be interrupted. On the west coast one the scenarios is earthquake interruptions to the main line gas system, for an example. It's probably something that would make economic sense and good policy - especially given potential hurricane public emergency issues in those seasons when the Canadians have put away their Polar Vortex weapons of mass destruction).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    David Megginson, TCABM and aterry1067 like this.
  28. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,074
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    It's a question of how much you want to overbuild (and overpay) to build wind turbines or coal/oil/gas facilities in a temperate climate like Texas to handle a once in 50 years cold-weather event. You need something to be able to keep running in extreme weather, but it would be expensive to build everything that way. The wind turbines freezing up wouldn't have mattered much if coal and hydrocarbon-based infrastructure (which supplies a much-bigger share of the power in Texas) hadn't also frozen up.

    Yes, our wind turbines up here in Eastern Ontario keep spinning just fine at -30c or -40c, and our oil and gas pipelines keep flowing, and the oil pumps keep pumping, and our water pipes are buried deep enough not to freeze up, but we had to pay a lot of extra money to build them that way or we'd have massive system-wide failures several times every winter.

    OTOH, we don't earthquake-proof our buildings the same way California does, or have a hurricane response in place (unlike in Florida, almost no one here would have plywood sitting around at home to board up their windows, for example).
     
    aterry1067 likes this.
  29. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,074
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Yes, but since Texas relies more on fossil fuels than on wind or solar, the fossil-fuel failures had 2× the impact of the wind turbine failures, even though the percentage was lower.

    Note that you can build wind turbines that operate reliably in extreme cold temperatures — they're all over Scandinavia, Canada, etc — but in Texas, why would anyone have paid the extra cost, especially when they're just a supplemental power source, not the primary one?
     
    aterry1067 likes this.
  30. Hawker800

    Hawker800 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    996
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    The last time I thought it couldn’t snow in South Texas.
    [​IMG]
     
    GRG55 and aterry1067 like this.
  31. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,057
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    Except that they weren't supplemental during the cold snap. Energy demand, due to the cold, was so great that every bit of capacity was needed. Record demand, they said.

    The Scandinavians and other northern countries use heated blades to prevent icing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottc...ze-de-icing-and-carbon-fiber/?sh=60de893c1f59
     
    David Megginson and aterry1067 like this.
  32. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,074
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Exactly, and they'll have to plan for that in the future. Either (a) pay more to winterise turbines, if they're meant to be the fallback, or (b) pay more to winterise conventional powerplants, if they're meant to be the fallback.

    I was talking to a work colleague in the UK. She said that Heathrow can deice only one plane at a time, so on the rare occasions when there's (e.g.) wet snow or freezing drizzle, there are huge lineups, then a desperate race to taxi and take off before it wears off and you have to go back to the end of the line. Airports in the northern U.S. states and Canada that are much less busy than Heathrow have multiple deicing bays and move planes through quickly. Everyone optimises for different things.
     
  33. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,925
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
  34. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Aurora, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    charheep
    Just think how low your electric bill will be..
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  35. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    16,920
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    It was 17 and sunny this morning, I felt like I should be wearing a t-shirt.
     
    Zeldman likes this.
  36. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,925
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Save enough to just go to Cancun?
     
  37. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,372
    Location:
    Bryan, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Sun is out and we should be above freezing by noon. I have a 3pm flight with a student, fingers crossed! Just need the runways back open and the ice to melt off the planes.
     
  38. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,128
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
  39. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    15,029
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Noel
    but the pickup has far more utility than a one-trick pony (a very valuable one-trick pony, but still....)

    A reasonable question might be: what does that option add to the purchase price of the truck?
     
  40. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,075
    Location:
    Philadelphia Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Arnold
    I would like to do this again:

    [​IMG]