Issues of higher time airframe

[asgcpa]

No matter what airplane I buy, I will get a pre buy. Some questions:

1. Is a higher airframe with NDH necessarily bad?
2. What if the plane spent its entire life in a club?
3. Is there a percentage increase in annuals for an older bird with higher hours?
4. What about birds that have been flown 2x as much as average over its life?
5. How do you discount a higher timed bird to come up with a fair price? Is VRef accurate (it seems high).
6. Any other price resources? Someone mentioned Aviation Consumer.

Thanks.

 

[poadeleted21]

Just remember that they guy you sell it to will be asking the same questions, buy it right so you can sell it right.

 

[Brad Z]

The online valuators are just a guide. If you don't feel comfortable establishing value yourself, hire an appraiser.

Hours are just part of the equation. How its flown and maintained are important with any plane, but especially so with high airframe times.

 

[poadeleted21]

The online valuators are just a guide. If you don't feel comfortable establishing value yourself, hire an appraiser.

Hours are just part of the equation. How its flown and maintained are important with any plane, but especially so with high airframe times.

I would say it's one of the "Big Items" that folks look at without considering the rest of the equation. Not saying that it should be the most important thing you look at. But, after having sold a plane. It's one of the top 3 points of contention a buyer will bring up (and my plane wasn't high time 51 years old and 5,000hrs TT). I think buyers give TT more weight than they should, but they do and you'll be explaining it to the next guy. IMHO, I have no problems flying a 10,000hr airframe. I would have a problem selling it though.

 

[asgcpa]

Turns out that the plane owners have an offer about 7k higher than what I was thinking, with no pre buy stipulation. I passed. Any plane I buy will have had a pre buy. Chicken to get stuck.

 

[JHW]

Turns out that the plane owners have an offer about 7k higher than what I was thinking, with no pre buy stipulation. I passed. Any plane I buy will have had a pre buy. Chicken to get stuck.

keep in mind there is no definition of a "pre buy". Every plane I have bought had a "pre buy". That is, when i want to look at it I took my toolbox, saw what i wanted to see, then got out my checkbook and made an offer.

if you're buying something like a 17s or cherokee, think in terms of buying a used BMW in terms of both purchase price and future upkeep. Don't make it into more than it is.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Your not making too much of it. Always have a good ap- or AI familiar with the type airplane go over it carefully before you buy. Trust no one. Too many log books are childrens fairy tales.

 

[AdamZ]

No matter what airplane I buy, I will get a pre buy. Some questions:

1. Is a higher airframe with NDH necessarily bad?
2. What if the plane spent its entire life in a club?
3. Is there a percentage increase in annuals for an older bird with higher hours?
4. What about birds that have been flown 2x as much as average over its life?
5. How do you discount a higher timed bird to come up with a fair price? Is VRef accurate (it seems high).
6. Any other price resources? Someone mentioned Aviation Consumer.

Thanks.

1) Not necessarily a bad thing but not a good thing either. I went through this a little over a year ago in evaluating a Cardinal RG. Fact is a higher time air frame will have a reduction in value over the same plane with a lower time air-frame.

2) Depends on the club, how big it is etc. Some clubs are like huge FBO rental organizations and some are smaller some really keep up on the Mx perhaps even more so than some private owners

3) Can't say I don't own a plane.

4) See One above.

5) I much prefer the valuation tool on TAP but I will compare vRef to that. You have to pay for the TAP tool but its only like a buck or two per month and you can go month to month. I think vRef is always high EXCEPT ironically when you are evaluating much older and run out planes.

6) I really like the valuation tool on TAP.

 

[rbridges]

Turns out that the plane owners have an offer about 7k higher than what I was thinking, with no pre buy stipulation. I passed. Any plane I buy will have had a pre buy. Chicken to get stuck.

there's a guy on mooneyspace that found out his vintage plane needs ~20K in repairs because of corrosion at one of the spars. he did a prebuy, but obviously it wasn't thorough enough. my point being that you don't want to be that guy that gets stuck with a heartbreaking repair.

 

[flyingron]

As someone who flies a 63 year old airplane with 6000 hours on it, I can probably answer some of this.

1. Is a higher airframe with NDH necessarily bad?

Even with a damage history it's not necessarily bad. It depends on the aircraft and all aircraft have some components that you need to be concerned with and some that can be expected to last forever. I know what to look at in Navions (in fact, the American Navion Society produces a book on what to look for). A type society on the classic birds can be a good source of information.

2. What if the plane spent its entire life in a club?

Depends on the plane and the club. A 172 that was in the club will likely see a lot of fatigue on things like plastic darings and interior but that is balanced by the fact that it was flown regularly and the engine is probably in better condition. A cross-country bird in a club probably isn't much different than one in private ownership.

3. Is there a percentage increase in annuals for an older bird with higher hours?

No. And strictly an annual is an INSPECTION. Of course a lot of people defer maintenance to the annual, but I don't see the high time nature of a plane that was acceptable when it was purchased to contribute to the cost.

4. What about birds that have been flown 2x as much as average over its life?

Again, most planes don't fly enough to keep their engines in good shape. My plane had something like 200 hours since overhaul (20 years earlier). That is a basket case. Our club plane that flew nearly 100 hours a month was still going strong at 2400 SMOH (on it's second overhaul) when the owner finally succumbed to the bitching of the club operator and had it done.

5. How do you discount a higher timed bird to come up with a fair price? Is VRef accurate (it seems high).

Unless you're flying one of the birds that has lifelimitted parts on the airframe, it doesn't. Engine time is a driving factor in price, but airframe I've not noticed.

6. Any other price resources? Someone mentioned Aviation Consumer.

Aviation Consumer has good background information (though it tends to get a bit repetitive). Pricing? Not so much. There are a few different pricing systems out there, but frankly if you want an accurate estimation you won't find it by looking it up in a book or typing it into a website. Someone who knows will need to look at the particular aircraft and its paperwork.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

1. Is a higher airframe with NDH necessarily bad?

Depends what the damage was, how well it was fixed, and how long ago it was (longer=better). If something was geared up 40 years ago, no problem. Somebody bent a wing last week? Problem.

2. What if the plane spent its entire life in a club?

Depends on the club. I'd buy a plane that spent its entire life my club in a heartbeat, because A) it's an equity club so the pilots are owners and care about the planes more, and [noparse]B)[/noparse] I know that we spare no expense on maintenance and every squawk is fixed as soon as it's reported. There are other clubs that can be pretty shady. Ask around and see what you can find out, but in general I wouldn't change much based on its being in a club. At least it was likely flown regularly for its entire life and that's why it's high time.

3. Is there a percentage increase in annuals for an older bird with higher hours?

Percentage? No. You'll likely have more squawks, and pay more to fix them, but how much more is always an unknown.

4. What about birds that have been flown 2x as much as average over its life?

Considering "Average" birds often spend months at a time in the hangar, more time can be better.

Take a look in the logbooks and note the TTAF at each annual. Given two airplanes, both 40 years old and with 8000 hours, I would MUCH prefer to buy the one that was flown 150-250 hours every year than the one that was flown 1000 hours a year for the first 7 years at a flight school, then was bought by someone who quickly couldn't afford to maintain it and sat in the hangar for 5 years, then was owned by someone for the next 28 years for 0-80 hours per year.

5. How do you discount a higher timed bird to come up with a fair price? Is VRef accurate (it seems high).

Depends why it's higher time. Look at the above and decide what it's worth to you, and what it's going to be worth to the next guy you try to sell it to. It'll be harder to find a buyer with a higher-time airframe or engine unless you have a competitive price.

 

[timwinters]

Turns out that the plane owners have an offer about 7k higher than what I was thinking, with no pre buy stipulation. I passed. Any plane I buy will have had a pre buy. too smart to get stuck.

FTFY...

 

[EdFred]

FTFY...

I'm 2/2 on doing the pre-buy myself. My worst annual on my Cherokee was $1500, and that was the 3rd or 4th one after I owned it. My Comanche has been the same way. Airworthiness discrepancies have been under $2000 - and only once was it over $1000 - every year I've had it. Now, I have done some optional things like a top, because I wanted to stay ahead of things.

The thing is if you want to only pay 25-40% of what most similar planes are selling for, expect to buy a piece of **** that will end up costing more in the next three years than if you just sucked it up and paid what is a fair price.

 

[frfly172]

Has the plane been doing touch and goes its whole life,or was it a cruiser. A pre buy from a mechanic you trust is a must,with any airplane ,no matter the hours.