is this an ok route if flying below Washington DC/BWI Class B?

[JasonM]

Without getting into any of the specifics related to the SFRA, which I have gained knowledge on in other threads.. I am trying to navigate my way in a more direct fashion from KFDK to KESN without having to deal with the Class B airspace.

I am a new private pilot and have not been in class B airspace yet and was thinking if this is a safe option; I might as well just avoid the class B all together.

I was thinking I could fly at 2000' MSL which would give me 500' below the class B and about 1200-1700 AGL and at least 900' above any obstacles that see.

What are your thoughts?

 

[JasonM]

Guess I had the answer right next to me. I was looking at the TAC and on the back is shows this route and what elevations to fly at. Looks like 2000' if heading south east and 1500' if headed north west.

Any of you guys done this? is it a head on collision waiting to happen?

 

[gasfiltered]

It's easy. Try to avoid traffic times to avoid the news/police choppers. Monitor guard in addition to whatever freq you get from approach. Remember that you should not use or try to pronounce the "Vxxxx" checkpoints over the air, they are for your gps convenience only.

 

[poadeleted20]

I strongly advise against trying to thread the needle between the FRZ and the 1500MSL ring -- it's just too narrow, and it's too easy to appear to have crossed on of the two limits, not to mention actually crossing it if you have to avoid someone coming the other way. If you look closely, that gap is only 2nm wide. Stay at 1400 and follow the straight edge of the 1500 zone about halfway between the Class B surface area and the FRZ -- more room to maneuver if you meet someone coming the other way.

 

[frfly172]

I would be careful if I hadn't done this route before. Not much room to maneuver ,also you will be looking for oncoming traffic.fly safe

 

[m_t_d]

I learned to fly in this area in the late 90's and without a GPS, and back then accepted practice as taught to me was as Ron says: make your way through the widest areas of the flyways at 1400 feet or so.

I prefer to fly higher than that over "congested" places whenever possible, so I was never completely comfortable with that.

Now, with the conveniently located waypoints, I prefer to fly at the altitudes given on the flyway chart with a flight plan loaded into the 430W, and fly with the needle right down the middle. I've only done this for one round trip so far since the recent end of my flying hiatus, and found it very easy to do.

If many local pilots were once taught to pick their way through at 1400 feet, as I was, that altitude is now exactly where you'd have to dodge oncoming traffic, and even though there's a wider space at that altitude, I'd be more concerned with having to see and avoid directly oncoming traffic funnelled right down that corridor. News and other choppers along the I-95 corridor around that altitude may also be a factor. At 2000 feet the narrowest point is 2.4 nm wide, which I think is more than adequate for any avoidance maneuvers if one flys the course right down the middle.

Obviously the altitudes and directions on the back of the TAC chart are just advisory, and there's no guarantee you wouldn't ever see oncoming traffic at those altitudes. It just seems to me that the suggestion to segregate opposite direction traffic at different altitudes is a good one that is now much more practical with GPS navigation.

I'm interested to hear what others who fly VFR through here regularly think about this one.

 

[comanchepilot]

Radar is not precise enough to paint a clear image of you being clear of Bravo or the FRZ. If you DO go make sure you record your GPS position . .. in case anyone challenges where you are. Jus' saying -

 

[m_t_d]

Radar is not precise enough to paint a clear image of you being clear of Bravo or the FRZ. If you DO go make sure you record your GPS position . .. in case anyone challenges where you are. Jus' saying -

Since we're now all required to be in contact with ATC while flying through here, I would think the whole point of that is that I'd be warned away from the FRZ boundary in short order if it looked to anyone at a 'scope that I was on a course to penetrate it. The same may not be true of the Bravo boundary, though. The SFRA controller may or may not be calling out traffic, too.

Starting MyTracks on the phone before departure is now part of my routine, particularly if flying through here or around the Bravo edges.

 

[flyingron]

I used to be based at IAD (and was based at VKX on 9/11). I used to use the two VFR tunnels (one between IAD and DCA and one this one between DCA and BWI a lot, but it's a different ball game now. THe other one is entirely swallowed (up other than an unflyable sliver) and this one isn't as easy as it used to be because you can no longer just count on the beltway as a good landmark.

As C-Ron says, go lower and under the 1500 ring at BWI. It's not all that daunting we regularly went into VKX both before and after 9/11 that way or beg a class B clearance.

 

[comanchepilot]

Since we're now all required to be in contact with ATC while flying through here, I would think the whole point of that is that I'd be warned away from the FRZ boundary in short order if it looked to anyone at a 'scope that I was on a course to penetrate it. The same may not be true of the Bravo boundary, though. The SFRA controller may or may not be calling out traffic, too.

Starting MyTracks on the phone before departure is now part of my routine, particularly if flying through here or around the Bravo edges.

willing to risk your certificate on someone else doing their job?

 

[m_t_d]

willing to risk your certificate on someone else doing their job?

Never. Avoiding those boundaries is *my* job, just pointing out the ostensible reason we're having to file flight plans and talk to ATC outside Bravo space in the SFRA, where allegedly 3 pairs of eyes are following our every move.

 

[JasonM]

It's easy. Try to avoid traffic times to avoid the news/police choppers. Monitor guard in addition to whatever freq you get from approach. Remember that you should not use or try to pronounce the "Vxxxx" checkpoints over the air, they are for your gps convenience only.

What?? I cant tell ATC i'm headed to poop? actually, I didn't realize that so thanks for pointing that out so I didn't say that and look like a fool.

As far as the debate going on here with the rest of you guys. I like the idea of going under the 1500' shelf to give more room from the FRZ, but that kinda scares me more too. I'd have 400' of either bust the bravo or possibly hit an obstruction.

I really wish this was one or the other (SFRA or Bravo airspace). I feel like I need to work on one at a time and the thought of doing the SFRA thing and also requesting a bravo transition with my lack of Bravo experience is intimidating to me.

Anyone have a video of doing all this stuff VFR? I want to take on this challenge, just don't want to loose my license trying to learn.

 

[m_t_d]

I really wish this was one or the other (SFRA or Bravo airspace). I feel like I need to work on one at a time and the thought of doing the SFRA thing and also requesting a bravo transition with my lack of Bravo experience is intimidating to me.

Well, if it counts for anything I'd agree it is intimidating, but after a few times through it gets to be routine. I'd taken over 10 years off and the new procedures with the SFRA were daunting on top of coming up to speed on everything else at the same time, but being based at GAI I had little choice, short of arranging to fly from some other airport.

There are three parts to this really, I'd suggest, maybe splitting them up would help... I'd first make a few trips to an inside the SFRA airport like GAI if you're coming from that direction, and get comfortable talking to Potomac. Then fly in and transit the flyway out to the bay by whatever means you're comfortable with. Then file to fly, say, from WOOLY to Manassas transiting the Bravo and back. That way you're taking the new tasks one at a time.

There are no guarantees that you'd get a Bravo transition in lieu of the east-west flyway, so always be prepared to fly it if they refuse you.

 

[JasonM]

Well, if it counts for anything I'd agree it is intimidating, but after a few times through it gets to be routine. I'd taken over 10 years off and the new procedures with the SFRA were daunting on top of coming up to speed on everything else at the same time, but being based at GAI I had little choice, short of arranging to fly from some other airport.

There are three parts to this really, I'd suggest, maybe splitting them up would help... I'd first make a few trips to an inside the SFRA airport like GAI if you're coming from that direction, and get comfortable talking to Potomac. Then fly in and transit the flyway out to the bay by whatever means you're comfortable with. Then file to fly, say, from WOOLY to Manassas transiting the Bravo and back. That way you're taking the new tasks one at a time.

I think your right and I should follow that advise. No need in me rushing through it. I was thinking about doing this trip this week for fun, but I'll just push that off.

Do you have a recommendation for a low traffic/easy access GA airport in the SFRA, if coming from Frederick area?

 

[jpower]

I've done the same route fiveish times since early summer, and it's really no biggie. I personally fly it at the suggested altitudes on the back of the TAC and find it to be no big deal as long as you're on your game. Don't get complacent and the extra altitude will be your friend and not your enemy. There aren't tons of great emergency landing spots along the route, and the 600' altitude difference could make your day should something go wrong. For the same reason, you have to look out for traffic flying westbound at 2000'--you can't expect that everyone's following the flyway suggestions.

This is definitely a corridor for GPS use, but there are still enough landmarks on the ground that you could, in theory, make it though solely by pilotage. I.e. without GPS.

Although you're not technically on flight following, some of the controllers will give you traffic reports, which is nice to have. Also, you should be able to keep track yourself of where some of the traffic is based on the radio traffic. Also, going westbound, make sure you get up to 2000' before coming near GAI. 1500' will put your just above their pattern--much too close for comfort, at least for me.

Also, don't be afraid of asking for bravo clearances. The controllers are normally great, and I've had excellent luck getting cleared through the bravo in and out of the western part of the SFRA. I was leaving JYO to the northeast a while back, and I asked nicely for a bravo clearance, and he came back with "Hey, you came to the right guy. Let's see....sure, why not! Cleared into the bravo at 2000'." And another time I was hitting some chop at 4500 on the way back from the Philly area, and I again asked nicely, letting her know I was getting bounced around that high and didn't really want to descend until I had to, and she let me right in. What's the worst they can say? "Unable, stay clear of Bravo." Oh no, scary! Not really . Now, I haven't tried to ask for it in the corridor, and given that it's right there between DCA, ADW, and BWI, it might be more difficult, but my point is that asking to cut through the Bravo shouldn't be a cause of concern.

Also, I was once going from Clearview 2W2 to Bay Bridge W29. I started off towards MTN, thinking I'd just cut through their delta and turn south towards W29, but then I figured that once the straight line to W29 was out of the SFRA, I'd ask for a Bravo clearance. He came right back with "Cleared into the Bravo at or below 2000 feet." I got to fly right over the Inner Harbor with Baltimore just off my right wingtip! It was pretty fantastic. Maybe something to try sometime?

 

[m_t_d]

I think your right and I should follow that advise. No need in me rushing through it. I was thinking about doing this trip this week for fun, but I'll just push that off.

Do you have a recommendation for a low traffic/easy access GA airport in the SFRA, if coming from Frederick area?

GAI is pretty much your only choice, which I haven't found to be busy except maybe late afternoons and evenings during the week lately. Suburban is short and surrounded by trees, and Leesburg has its own simplified procedures coming in from the west (just a squawk code).

The one other nit I ran into is that some of the controllers who handle Clearance Delivery at GAI prefer you ask for "squawk and frequency" for VFR departures. This isn't mentioned on the kneeboard, in the SFRA online course, or any of the other FAA documents about the SFRA procedures.

 

[m_t_d]

I've done the same route fiveish times since early summer, and it's really no biggie. I personally fly it at the suggested altitudes on the back of the TAC and find it to be no big deal as long as you're on your game. Don't get complacent and the extra altitude will be your friend and not your enemy. There aren't tons of great emergency landing spots along the route, and the 600' altitude difference could make your day should something go wrong. For the same reason, you have to look out for traffic flying westbound at 2000'--you can't expect that everyone's following the flyway suggestions.

This is pretty much my thinking - and as for being on your game, in my case, I first went out and flew a flight plan through a few waypoints using the GPS to make sure I had everything set up right, since the GPS is still new equipment for me. Looking at the recorded track, it appears I was within a thousand feet of the centerline the whole time.

Although you're not technically on flight following, some of the controllers will give you traffic reports, which is nice to have. Also, you should be able to keep track yourself of where some of the traffic is based on the radio traffic.

It hasn't been clear to me whether or not all the traffic is always on the same frequency all the time. It did seem like traffic reports were more likely when assigned to one of the usual Potomac Approach frequencies rather than the SFRA frequencies which are only in use part time.

Also, I was once going from Clearview 2W2 to Bay Bridge W29. I started off towards MTN, thinking I'd just cut through their delta and turn south towards W29, but then I figured that once the straight line to W29 was out of the SFRA, I'd ask for a Bravo clearance. He came right back with "Cleared into the Bravo at or below 2000 feet." I got to fly right over the Inner Harbor with Baltimore just off my right wingtip! It was pretty fantastic. Maybe something to try sometime?

One of the advantages of getting cleared through the Bravo As a newly minted pilot, it was a whole lot of fun flying TGI to FDK straight over BWI at 4000' and looking down at the airliner traffic. I know, it's probably not unusual, but it's a real treat the first time it happens.

 

[weilke]

You: 'Potomac approach, bugsmasher 123 request'
App: 'bugsmasher go ahead'
You: 'request bravo transition from CUTOP intersection to POLLA intersection at 3500'

You'll get one of two answers:

App: 'Sorry, no can do'

Or

App: 'Cleared through bravo at 3500 from CUTOP to POLLA'

Before people tell you that you can't get them, I received three bravo transitions today. One going out of Teterboro, one going from Easton to 2W5 and the third from 2W5 to HEF. You have nothing to lose by asking. If you get the 'unable' (depends on which runway BWI is landing), you can still go through the gap. I wouldn't do this without a moving map GPS that has VPOOP and VPONX and when in doubt, it is better to bust the bravo than the FRZ.

A couple of months ago I flew with someone through that gap. We were climbing out of ANP and took out a bird around the wildlife refuge. Note that the flyway chart tells you to go through the gap northwestwards at 1500, the margins of the same flyway chart tell you that you are requested to maintain 2000ft above the wildlife refuge in the gap. Given the possibility of helicopter traffic along the BW parkway and I95, I try to be as high as possible. My comfort level with flying below bravo shelfs is 250ft clearance.

 

[JasonM]

You: 'Potomac approach, bugsmasher 123 request'
App: 'bugsmasher go ahead'
You: 'request bravo transition from CUTOP intersection to POLLA intersection at 3500'

You'll get one of two answers:

App: 'Sorry, no can do'

Or

App: 'Cleared through bravo at 3500 from CUTOP to POLLA'

Before people tell you that you can't get them, I received three bravo transitions today. One going out of Teterboro, one going from Easton to 2W5 and the third from 2W5 to HEF. You have nothing to lose by asking. If you get the 'unable' (depends on which runway BWI is landing), you can still go through the gap. I wouldn't do this without a moving map GPS that has VPOOP and VPONX and when in doubt, it is better to bust the bravo than the FRZ.

A couple of months ago I flew with someone through that gap. We were climbing out of ANP and took out a bird around the wildlife refuge. Note that the flyway chart tells you to go through the gap northwestwards at 1500, the margins of the same flyway chart tell you that you are requested to maintain 2000ft above the wildlife refuge in the gap. Given the possibility of helicopter traffic along the BW parkway and I95, I try to be as high as possible. My comfort level with flying below bravo shelfs is 250ft clearance.

Can I say the words CUTOP and POLLA? I assume I can use any intersection name as my route request VFR?

 

[dperez]

I did this route - almost exactly the same - for the first time solo a few months ago. Dropped down to 1500 after passing Davis so that I was well lined up for VPONX and VPOOP at 1500 before getting near the Bravo rings. 1500 felt pretty low, I didn't want to have to be lower to squeeze beneath the 1500 Bravo shelf. I felt pretty comfortable staying on the GPS line between VPONX and VPOOP which keeps you nicely between the FRZ and the Bravo, slightly closer to the Bravo. I personally wouldn't do that route if were breezy or bumpy.

 

[weilke]

Can I say the words CUTOP and POLLA? I assume I can use any intersection name as my route request VFR?

Yes your can and any potomac controller who covers those sectors will know them. It is only the visual GPS checkpoints that you are not supposed to pronounce phonetically and the tracon controllers dont know them (I tried to reference my position relative to VPAXI and that got me a 'where is that ?' ).
There is no restriction against using a named intersection as a waypoint during VFR flight. Controllers wont usually give them to VFR pilots, but that doesn't mean you can't use them to define something you want to do.

 

[Satchmo10th]

I didn't have any issues flying when I flew almost this same path in the helicopter. I was on the way to W29.

 

[poadeleted20]

Can I say the words CUTOP and POLLA? I assume I can use any intersection name as my route request VFR?

Controllers generally know the intersection names in their area a lot better than pilots. The problems appear only when they have ambiguous pronunciations and your pronunciation of them doesn't match the controllers, e.g., UNYTS near Baltimore, isn't "units", it's "Unitas." And for the second of the two you mentioned, I can imagine a person whose first language was Spanish asking about "poya" rather than "pola" and the controller being confused (unless the controller's name is Sanchez).

 

[JasonM]

Great advice and insight fellas. I would be navigating using the IPAD and ForeFlight. The 172 I fly has an old GPS, but its far from current and I'd feel more secure using the IPAD. I think.. Guess I should practice how close I stay on course with that. How are you guys tracking where you went?

 

[weilke]

Great advice and insight fellas. I would be navigating using the IPAD and ForeFlight. The 172 I fly has an old GPS, but its far from current and I'd feel more secure using the IPAD. I think.. Guess I should practice how close I stay on course with that. How are you guys tracking where you went?

I would advise against using a piece of consumer electronics as your primary means of navigation. I have had the ipad lose GPS fix and I have seen it shut down due to heat in the most inconvenient moments while maneuvering in complex airspace.

 

[JasonM]

I would advise against using a piece of consumer electronics as your primary means of navigation. I have had the ipad lose GPS fix and I have seen it shut down due to heat in the most inconvenient moments while maneuvering in complex airspace.

I thought the IPAD's were always perfect. So... that's why my instructor and my checkride examiner wouldn't let me use one.

Looks to me like the CUTOP - POLLA route through the class Bravo would be just about right on the 135 deg. FROM radial off the frederick VOR. If the range is 50 NM that would work. I could also see what the old GPS has for waypoints and run with it and use the IPAD as a backup. All 3 options cant throw me too far off right?

 

[dperez]

I used GPS. To stay in my comfort level, I wouldn't go through without feeling confident I had VPONX and VPOOP lined up and had the alititude nailed first so there would be time to look out for traffic and visual checkpoints and look around for engine out options.

First time I went through, we asked to go through Bravo. With ATC directing us, it made the trip longer - if I remember correctly, ATC took us over BWI - so we came back through the corridor on the return trip.

 

[weilke]

I thought the IPAD's were always perfect. So... that's why my instructor and my checkride examiner wouldn't let me use one.

They didn't let you use it because it makes you mentally lazy.

Looks to me like the CUTOP - POLLA route through the class Bravo would be just about right on the 135 deg. FROM radial off the frederick VOR. If the range is 50 NM that would work. I could also see what the old GPS has for waypoints and run with it and use the IPAD as a backup. All 3 options cant throw me too far off right?

Do you have DME ? If you stay at more than 15DME from the DCA VORTAC, you are clear of the FRZ. I know people used to fly this gap all the time with landmarks only or VOR/DME, but that was back when poking into the class B got you a phonecall and a getting yelled at, not a anti-terrorism investigation. I dont think I would do this a first time without a panel GPS that has the waypoints.

As mentioned by others, CUTOP POLLA may not be what they will give you if you request a Bravo tansition. More likely you'll get something like the 300 radial on the BAL vor and route you straight over BWI (short of missile launches, the space immediately above even the busiest airports is some of the deadest airspace around). I was routed straight over BWI the other day going from SBY to HEF (yes, the long way around).

 

[JasonM]

They didn't let you use it because it makes you mentally lazy.

Do you have DME ?

I was only joking about the IPAD thing. I realized that and can totally appreciate the knowledge gained in the event I don't have any technology on board.

No DME in this plane. I could use the GPS and stay the 15 miles out, but as said earlier, its getting old and is definitely not up to date.

 

[GeorgeC]

I've used the flyway per the TAC on a few occasions. It's not hard, but I wouldn't necessarily want it to be my first rodeo in the SFRA.

In my experience, Potomac has been helpful with traffic advisories. A different set of controllers on the same frequency will advise promptly if someone even thinks about wandering too close to the FRZ.

 

[Brad Z]

Up until a few years ago, I used to fly traffic planes through that area (granted we were under a waiver so flying the FRZ wasn't a problem). Nevertheless, for visual landmarks, go down to 1,400 and follow the Pautuxent river from the Tridelphia reservoir down to Crofton. Since you'll be just above pattern altitude and less than a mile from Suburban and Tipton, make some position reports when crossing through (Tipton can get busy).

If you want to go higher up, ask Potomac for a bravo clearance through BWI at 2,400 (or whatever) and let them know you'll remain more than 5 dme from the airport. If they're using 10-28 that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[flyingron]

Hey Brad, you fly for Stan? Ever fly 73FR?

 

[Brad Z]

Hey Brad, you fly for Stan? Ever fly 73FR?

Yep, 73FR and 737NF. They've got about a billion hours on them by now, and the Thielert diesel engines. It's been about three years since I hung up the traffic planes.

 

[JasonM]

I've used the flyway per the TAC on a few occasions. It's not hard, but I wouldn't necessarily want it to be my first rodeo in the SFRA.

In my experience, Potomac has been helpful with traffic advisories. A different set of controllers on the same frequency will advise promptly if someone even thinks about wandering too close to the FRZ.

Thanks. I'm going to work this SFRA thing gently before I push through the other side.

Up until a few years ago, I used to fly traffic planes through that area (granted we were under a waiver so flying the FRZ wasn't a problem). Nevertheless, for visual landmarks, go down to 1,400 and follow the Pautuxent river from the Tridelphia reservoir down to Crofton. Since you'll be just above pattern altitude and less than a mile from Suburban and Tipton, make some position reports when crossing through (Tipton can get busy).

If you want to go higher up, ask Potomac for a bravo clearance through BWI at 2,400 (or whatever) and let them know you'll remain more than 5 dme from the airport. If they're using 10-28 that shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks, I'll look for those landmarks. Assuming I am 1400 to stay below the 1500' bravo? Note sure I trust myself with 100' when it has ramifications yet I just know the day I commit to this route, i'm gonna be sweating bullets.