Is there anything I can do?

A

Apache123

Line Up and Wait
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Hey, Steve!
I just received a bill from the shop I started taking the Apache to since I moved up to KUGN.

It is for 148% of the budget I approved including a back-charge of $50 for verbal advice when I asked about replacing my landing light. This is the third time they've sent me a bill for almost exactly 150% of the quote.

Is there anything I can do or am I trapped into paying this, cutting my losses, and moving on?
 
steingar said:
Its a landing light. How much can it be?
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That was just one of the items. The written quote for the work I wanted done was $2,145. The bill I received was for $3,200.

Edit: with no discussion of or approval requested for change in work/parts costs.
 
You could just pay what they quoted and let them chase you in small claims for the rest, but you would be burning a bridge. It is probably better to call them and negotiate.
 
Apache123 said:
I just received a bill from the shop I started taking the Apache to since I moved up to KUGN.

It is for 148% of the budget I approved including a back-charge of $50 for verbal advice when I asked about replacing my landing light. This is the third time they've sent me a bill for almost exactly 150% of the quote.

Is there anything I can do or am I trapped into paying this, cutting my losses, and moving on?
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Just a WAG, but that doesn't sound like a good way to conduct business.

Time to move on. :yes:
 
Apache123 said:
That was just one of the items. The written quote for the work I wanted done was $2,145. The bill I received was for $3,200.

Edit: with no discussion of or approval requested for change in work/parts costs.
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Did the signed estimate have any verbiage giving them the right to go over, or explaining their procedure if the actual cost runs over the estimate?
 
Apache123 said:
...This is the third time they've sent me a bill for almost exactly 150% of the quote.

Is there anything I can do or am I trapped into paying this, cutting my losses, and moving on?
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Put a stop to the precedence and let them know it's not going to happen again.
 
What is your states law on estimates and your liability if the shop goes over without approval ?
 
Did the mechanic doing the work provide the quote or did someone else do it? You might have run into a situation where an unqualified individual is underestimating the amount of labor needed to perform a job. If that is the case I'd do the best you can to put a stop to it.

Also, keep in mind that you're dealing with an old airplane. Some jobs end up being more than a mechanic bargains for. A courtesy call saying that things are taking longer than expected would definitely be in order but other than taking the surprise out of the bill it isn't going to reduce the amount of time spent finishing the repair.
 
A. Do you have your plane in your possession or is it in the shop?

B. Do you have records of ANY phone calls after the initial written estimate, and before they gave you the bill? (if so, that will be where they claim they told you it was going over, whether they did or not)
 
As was mentioned above, there is a difference between a quote and an estimate. A quote is binding if there are no overriding verbiage to allow it to change. The estimate is just that. I refer to them as a guesstimate. An estimate should have verbiage that allows you to stop work if you don't like the guess or to stop work until an approval is obtained.
 
Apache123 said:
That was just one of the items. The written quote for the work I wanted done was $2,145. The bill I received was for $3,200.

Edit: with no discussion of or approval requested for change in work/parts costs.
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Look up your state laws, in CA (for example) they must provide a estimate before they can charge for work.

I had a crooked AP IA try the crap on me once, bad business.
 
Have had both quotes and estimates.with a reputable mechanic a quote is the final price for the work quoted,an estimate is very dangerous because its not a fixed figure ,also me handicapped should not be charging you more without your approval.I would cut my losses and move on to another mechanic.
 
frfly172 said:
Have had both quotes and estimates.with a reputable mechanic a quote is the final price for the work quoted,an estimate is very dangerous because its not a fixed figure ,also me handicapped should not be charging you more without your approval.I would cut my losses and move on to another mechanic.
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Depending on how your state law is set up, any work exceeding the initial estimate requires approval. In some places, you can waive that right (which is hidden somewhere in the light grey on light grey small print on the back of the shops work-order form triplicate form.
 
docmirror said:
A. Do you have your plane in your possession or is it in the shop? :dunno:

B. Do you have records of ANY phone calls after the initial written estimate, and before they gave you the bill? (if so, that will be where they claim they told you it was going over, whether they did or not)
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Write a check for 2145.00 if you have the plane in your possession... Let them sue you for the difference......

If your plane is still in their shop then you need to do a couple of things..

1- go to store and buy alot of KY lube.
2- go find a concrete wall and start beating your head against it.



Rinse and repeat...:eek:
 
In this case it was a written estimate not a quote. =\

I'll be trying to negotiate the price but ugh, I'm not a good type of person for that.

Any A&Ps in the Chicago area on this board who are willing to travel to KUGN ? PM me if so.
 
mondtster said:
Did the mechanic doing the work provide the quote or did someone else do it? You might have run into a situation where an unqualified individual is underestimating the amount of labor needed to perform a job. If that is the case I'd do the best you can to put a stop to it.

Also, keep in mind that you're dealing with an old airplane. Some jobs end up being more than a mechanic bargains for. A courtesy call saying that things are taking longer than expected would definitely be in order but other than taking the surprise out of the bill it isn't going to reduce the amount of time spent finishing the repair.
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Might also be running into a situation where an unqualified person is doing the work taking far too much time to do it.
 
Apache123 said:
In this case it was a written estimate not a quote. =\

I'll be trying to negotiate the price but ugh, I'm not a good type of person for that.

Any A&Ps in the Chicago area on this board who are willing to travel to KUGN ? PM me if so.
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All the killings in Chicago nocking him off would't even make the news,
 
The MX bill for the stuff we elected to do at Annual just came in today $2500 higher than the already spendy but reasonable estimate.

Line by line analysis shows it's all legitimate overages. From the STC'd aileron hinges to the parts needed to rebuild both mags.

Sometimes you just wave bye-bye to the wallet as they roll it into the ER with a paramedic riding on top of it on the gurney administering CPR. ;)
 
Apache123 said:
In this case it was a written estimate not a quote. =\

I'll be trying to negotiate the price but ugh, I'm not a good type of person for that.

Any A&Ps in the Chicago area on this board who are willing to travel to KUGN ? PM me if so.
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If that's the case, you're behind the 8 ball. I would go to the shop, point out (if you have supporting data) that their actual charges are trending 50% high vs their estimates and you can't live like that. Provide examples. Then negotiate in good faith. Demand quotes going forward.
 
I have given 500+ estimates in the last 13 years for HVAC work. The two times I did not make what I had in mind, I just ate it. The rest of the time I made a descent profit. I am not the cheapest, but my customers know I do good work, stand behind it and give accurate estimates. Low-ball estimates are given to snag you in ANY business. Now if something unknown(labor or parts related) comes up and they called you immediately to come and look, I would understand that.
 
Concorde said:
>>>>>> That <<<<<<
Pay the bill but let him and others know about it .
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+1, pay the bill, tell him why you won't be coming back. It's up to him if you're business isn't needed.
 
The way I handle these situations is typically to meet with the shop owner and discuss the discrepancies and why the bill is so much higher. Typically we meet somewhere in the middle so we both come away feeling like we've been in a prison shower.
 
This is why on big ticket things you get in writing work not to exceed x dollars without written permission from y person.
 
The owner of the shop I use knows full well that all problems can't be identified during the initial inspection and makes it clear to owners that no additional work will be performed without written authorization from them, usually by email.

The hidden problems are usually easy to explain and photograph (corrosion that couldn't be seen without removing components, excessive part wear or failure, wrong parts or incorrect installation) and evidence can be emailed to the owner with a request for instructions regarding additional work.

None of this stuff is difficult if the shop will just do it, and IMO all owners should demand it. I simply couldn't work with any service provider whose method included surprises at the end of the job.
 
wabower said:
The owner of the shop I use knows full well that all problems can't be identified during the initial inspection and makes it clear to owners that no additional work will be performed without written authorization from them, usually by email.

The hidden problems are usually easy to explain and photograph (corrosion that couldn't be seen without removing components, excessive part wear or failure, wrong parts or incorrect installation) and evidence can be emailed to the owner with a request for instructions regarding additional work.

None of this stuff is difficult if the shop will just do it, and IMO all owners should demand it. I simply couldn't work with any service provider whose method included surprises at the end of the job.
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Yep, exactly what all good shops do.
 
The one thing I am not seeing is where is the difference in price. Is the extra 50% hidden but legitimate items that you would have done whether or nor they called you, or is the extra 50% from stuff that is not legitimate, stuff that is not something you would have done, or from things taking longer than they originally estimated.

If it the first issue the conversation I would have is something to the effect that their bill was higher than expected, and you realize the extra work was necessary but in the future it would be appreciated that you received a phone call or email or smoke signals or something else to make you aware of the extra work, so you could approve it, and be aware of it.

If it the second issue, then my conversation would be that you did not have my permission to do A and since I did not approve it and I really did not want it done then I do not feel a real need to pay for it, but just to be nice I will split the difference(if you desire to do so). If it is for extra hours, then find out the reason, and if it is legit then I would pay it, and lick my wounds, if it is not legit then I would refuse to pay it.

Good luck.
 
Refusing to pay is not the best option as it can lead to a Marshal Seizure and there are lots of costs involved that if you lose in court you have to pay which will take this bill to well over $10k. The best way if you want to dispute a bill is pay it then sue the shop.
 
Henning said:
Refusing to pay is not the best option as it can lead to a Marshal Seizure and there are lots of costs involved that if you lose in court you have to pay which will take this bill to well over $10k. The best way if you want to dispute a bill is pay it then sue the shop.
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If the shop is padding hours to such an extent that it increased the bill 50%, I would refuse to pay the bill to the extent of the padded hours. Legitimate overruns is par for the course, and of course you should pay. However, if I am charged 40 hours for labor to trouble shoot a broken transponder after I told the mechanic just to replace it I am going to refuse to pay. Well really what I said was so you are telling me that you want me to pay $3000 to troubleshoot a piece of equipment that cost $700 to replace and install...I think not. The mechanic looked at me crossed eye and said you know what I agree something is wrong there, and ate the $3000, which in the end was for trouble shooting and replacing the warranty covered replacement PFD.

In any case, I discussed it nicely with my mechanic, and at the end of the day he was happy, I was happy. No lawyers, no threats, no butting heads. In fact, he got two new customers from me because of that, and still has my business. If the mechanic is a jerk and is padding the bills with illegitimate charges, I am certainly not going to pay it, and if I do I will not be suing him, but will be reporting him to the better business bureau(in my experience legitimate business fear them a lot more than a lawsuit, and it is cheaper), and the state business licensing department. When lawyers get involved it has been my experience the only winners are the lawyers.
 
douglas393 said:
The one thing I am not seeing is where is the difference in price. Is the extra 50% hidden but legitimate items that you would have done whether or nor they called you, or is the extra 50% from stuff that is not legitimate, stuff that is not something you would have done, or from things taking longer than they originally estimated.

If it the first issue the conversation I would have is something to the effect that their bill was higher than expected, and you realize the extra work was necessary but in the future it would be appreciated that you received a phone call or email or smoke signals or something else to make you aware of the extra work, so you could approve it, and be aware of it.

If it the second issue, then my conversation would be that you did not have my permission to do A and since I did not approve it and I really did not want it done then I do not feel a real need to pay for it, but just to be nice I will split the difference(if you desire to do so). If it is for extra hours, then find out the reason, and if it is legit then I would pay it, and lick my wounds, if it is not legit then I would refuse to pay it.

Good luck.
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I'm paying and just never going back; I'm out a few grand now, but I guess it'll save a lot down the road.

Most of the overage came from "we saw this so we fixed/replaced it" and "well you said you were aware of this issue over the phone so we took that as a go ahead to fix it." This, even though I said I was going to do an as-is where-is sale of her leaving her out of annual/airworthiness.

The one line item that really chapped my ass was a back-charge from last July. I was replacing the landing light (I bought one online to replace myself), and one of the screws was stuck; the mechanic was outside and I was doing this on the ramp and said "Hey, two of the screws are pretty tight, we can't really mess up anything on this can we?" He walks over, looks at it, says it's no biggie and pops them off. I replace the landing light, screw it then the nose cone back in, and we part. That was $50 on this bill.

I'm not a stone-skinned conflict-resolving person, so I'm just going to pay up and try to find someone whose ethics more closely match my own.
 
douglas393 said:
If the shop is padding hours to such an extent that it increased the bill 50%, I would refuse to pay the bill to the extent of the padded hours. Legitimate overruns is par for the course, and of course you should pay. However, if I am charged 40 hours for labor to trouble shoot a broken transponder after I told the mechanic just to replace it I am going to refuse to pay. Well really what I said was so you are telling me that you want me to pay $3000 to troubleshoot a piece of equipment that cost $700 to replace and install...I think not. The mechanic looked at me crossed eye and said you know what I agree something is wrong there, and ate the $3000, which in the end was for trouble shooting and replacing the warranty covered replacement PFD.

In any case, I discussed it nicely with my mechanic, and at the end of the day he was happy, I was happy. No lawyers, no threats, no butting heads. In fact, he got two new customers from me because of that, and still has my business. If the mechanic is a jerk and is padding the bills with illegitimate charges, I am certainly not going to pay it, and if I do I will not be suing him, but will be reporting him to the better business bureau(in my experience legitimate business fear them a lot more than a lawsuit, and it is cheaper), and the state business licensing department. When lawyers get involved it has been my experience the only winners are the lawyers.
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Working it out on the spot is always the preferred solution, sadly however that is not always what happens. When it all goes wrong, pay the bill and sue the shop, it's the cheapest way in the long run and keeps the airplane in your custody available for use during that time.
 
He does this because he can. He knows you will pay him. Then never come back until you really need him and its easier to go back than go elsewhere.

Savvy aviator seminar has a letter he recommends you put on file with your mechanic which pretty much states what Wayne is saying. Everything will be done by writing, email and authorization by owner no exceptions.

I put in my letter that they can go up to $50 on parts (over) and 10% over on labor of the estimate without calling me.

I also added that they will not charge me to do something a 2nd time if they failed to do it correctly the first time or they would fix anything they damaged while working on something else.

In the end you just have to find another mechanic if they think they can operate business like this.
 
Things are changing. Shops that use the "old-school" methods are feeling the pressure with predictable results. Some are immune due to friendly political situations, long-term leases, semi-monopolistic environments and other one-sided situations that will be difficult to overturn or uproot. OTOH, "early" retirements, layoffs, business shrinkage and "closing up shop" are occurring regularly.

In many other cases, the word is getting around through forums, type clubs, user groups, on-line reviews and other methods that expose these turds to the light of day and cause customers to seek other alternatives for MX-related work.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that many of the necessary changes involve the need for software that many shops don't want to buy. At some point the pendulum will swing and they will bite the bullet in order to succeed, but nobody seems to know when it will happen.
 
Apache123 said:
I'm paying and just never going back;
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Not sure of the reason for the thread asking what to do at this point. It's one approach, not a good one but the shop will be happy.
 
Apache123 said:
I'm paying and just never going back; I'm out a few grand now, but I guess it'll save a lot down the road.

Most of the overage came from "we saw this so we fixed/replaced it" and "well you said you were aware of this issue over the phone so we took that as a go ahead to fix it." This, even though I said I was going to do an as-is where-is sale of her leaving her out of annual/airworthiness.

The one line item that really chapped my ass was a back-charge from last July. I was replacing the landing light (I bought one online to replace myself), and one of the screws was stuck; the mechanic was outside and I was doing this on the ramp and said "Hey, two of the screws are pretty tight, we can't really mess up anything on this can we?" He walks over, looks at it, says it's no biggie and pops them off. I replace the landing light, screw it then the nose cone back in, and we part. That was $50 on this bill.

I'm not a stone-skinned conflict-resolving person, so I'm just going to pay up and try to find someone whose ethics more closely match my own.
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Feel free to name the business so all of the people reading this forum know who to avoid..:yes:;)
 
John221us said:
You could just pay what they quoted and let them chase you in small claims for the rest, but you would be burning a bridge. It is probably better to call them and negotiate.
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I would think that particular bridge would need burning.
Any shop that quotes me a price, then takes it upon themself to cause the price to go up without first contacting me, gets the burnt bridge treatment.
 
Marauder said:
As was mentioned above, there is a difference between a quote and an estimate. A quote is binding if there are no overriding verbiage to allow it to change. The estimate is just that. I refer to them as a guesstimate. An estimate should have verbiage that allows you to stop work if you don't like the guess or to stop work until an approval is obtained.
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+1
All my estimates have verbiage, letting the customer know that this is an estimate, Not a contract price. In big bold print after the bottom line price.
Because there are many unseen things that can go un noticed untill it's opened up. But, I try to get the estimate as close as I can, and not go over. But should I run into something significant, I will contact the custome before proceeding. And most times I will simply "eat" the overage, and learn from it.

I also garontee my work for 12 months from the time the work is done.
Any time within 12 months, you got a problem with something I did, I'll make it right. NC
I've had to eat the labor on engine replacements, because the re-man replacement was faulty. But in the process, I gained a steady customer.
which btw paid off in the long run.
It falls under the heading of: "I do it right someone may hear of it, I screw it up, and Everyone will hear about it".
 
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