Is there a Dr. Chien for Aviation Insurance?

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
OK...I want to explore the cost of insurance if I buy...and if I rent. I've heard that when you rent, sometimes the FBO's insurance agency will sue you after they pay the FBO.

I've already established that my umbrella liability policy won't cover me through State Farm.

So...is there a guru on this site for insurance like Dr. Chien is for medical info?
 
OK...I want to explore the cost of insurance if I buy...and if I rent. I've heard that when you rent, sometimes the FBO's insurance agency will sue you after they pay the FBO.

I've already established that my umbrella liability policy won't cover me through State Farm.

So...is there a guru on this site for insurance like Dr. Chien is for medical info?

There is an inexpensive mini-policy you can add as a rider that covers that possibility, damned if I can remember what it's properly called though, something about "subrogation", I think.
 
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I have my 172 insured thru AOPA and I'm a low time pilot. I just renewed my policy and it was $710.
 
I think what he's asking is if there's someone who can actually read and fully understand every legal implication of the 40 pages of policy documents and has experience knowing which policies are best between the underwriters out there; and can explain it all in plain english.

(The answer from my experiences is: Not really. There's a few independent brokers who have some of that information, but policies change, prices change, yadda yadda yadda.

As far as the school/FBO suing a renter... it's called subrogation, and some policies cover people renting so it doesn't happen, but very few. Renter's insurance fills that "gap".
 
I've never seen an insurance policy that was quite 40 pages. Despite all the hype and hysteria, they're usually pretty terse.

The SCHOOL/FBO suing the renter is NOT subrogation. Subrogation is where the school allows the INSURER to sue the at fault party.
 
(The answer from my experiences is: Not really. There's a few independent brokers who have some of that information, but policies change, prices change, yadda yadda yadda.

I've run into this when dealing with brokers. The office drones know what the policy used to say...so be more than just a little bit careful.
 
I've never seen an insurance policy that was quite 40 pages. Despite all the hype and hysteria, they're usually pretty terse.

The SCHOOL/FBO suing the renter is NOT subrogation. Subrogation is where the school allows the INSURER to sue the at fault party.

Pretty close. The term "subrogate" means to assume the rights of another. Most policies include verbiage to permit the insurance company to sue on your behalf to collect both their losses and your deductible from the party that caused the loss. This verbiage may or may not be titled "Subrogation Clause"("Plain Language" policy regulations may apply). You're basically required to give this permission as part of the insurance contract.

Since the insured can not sue himself, being added to the owners policy as an "additional named insured" can prevent that. In the case of the flying club where I took my original training, the club policy covered all members, so I didn't need a personal policy. If I was renting from an FBO, I would definitely want my own renters or "non-owned" policy. I wouldn't expect(or trust) an FBO to fully understand their own coverage in the event they claimed it covered me...

Full disclosure - I work in the insurance industry, but aviation insurance is NOT my specialty.
 
The problem with having a Dr. Chien for insurance questions is the law is different from state to state.

Subrogation is in general terms (again, this may vary, depending on strate law) a legal remedy usually afforded both under the common law (meaning established by legal precedent issued in written appeals court opinions) and expressly as a term in the applicable insurance policy. When the insurance company pays its own insured for a loss, it then may attempt to seek recovery against the responsible party. Thus, when the FBO's insurance company pays the FBO, usually nothing is stopping it from sueing the responsible party, namely you, the pilot operator. But, when they do so, the "stand in the shoes" of their subrogee. This means that any defenses you would have as to the FBO, you would have as to the carrier. And some scenarios (construction projects, for example) parties will include a waiver of subrogation provision in their contract which effectively binds their carriers, and prevents the carriers from sueing the other party. So, if you can manage to sneek a waiver of subrogation provision into your rental agreement, you may at least get that benefit. Although that won't afford you liability coverage for the damage you cause on the ground.

In some states, mine for instance, the common law holds that an agreement to provide insurance reflects an intent of the parties to place the risk of loss on to insurance, and that therefore the parties agreed to a waiver of subrogation. Thus, a representation by one party in the rental agreement that they will obtain insurance for a certain risk may be enough to argue that the parties agreed the loss would be covered by insurance, and not the parties to the rental agreement, thereby depriving the carrier of the right to subrogate.
 
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Contact Alejandro Galioto at True Course Aviation Insurance.

http://www.true-course.com/

I cannot say enough good things about him. He will explain aviation insurance clearly and concisely, and when you are buying, his agency will shop the markets for you.
 
Pretty close. The term "subrogate" means to assume the rights of another. Most policies include verbiage to permit the insurance company to sue on your behalf to collect both their losses and your deductible from the party that caused the loss. This verbiage may or may not be titled "Subrogation Clause"("Plain Language" policy regulations may apply). You're basically required to give this permission as part of the insurance contract.
Which is consistent with what I said. I wasn't defining subrogation, I was showing that the example cited was NOT subrogation and giving the COMMON case that was.

When we operated a flying club, we got two riders (which progressively became harder to come by). First was a "breach of warranty" rider, which said that even if a renter broke our rules, the insurer would still pay (at least us). The second was the waiver of subrogation, which said that they would not subrogate against our renters (but they would against other at fault parties).
 
To answer the OP's question, I don't recall reading any posts on this site from brokers.

Most policies for any one exposure are similar in looking at the big picture...but every policy is different when it comes to details. And sometimes the smallest details can make a huge difference. There are some wonderful brokers out there who can take care of you. A good broker will take the time to explain the details of the policy w/o making you feel rushed even though he/she isn't going to pocket a lot of money off of your one policy. If I were you I'd ask a follow-up question of the folks on here for their recommendations for good brokers.
 
When it comes to getting a grasp on issues of:
- what does insurance cover
- how does insurance deal with stupidity
- what is 'smooth' coverage and why do I need it
- how do you buy insurance, brokers, direct-writers
- what is subrogation and when do I have to worry about it
- how does workmans comp play into insurance if I fly for business

....the insurance threads on beechtalk are a high-yield source. The contributors include 2 aviation attorneys, a number of general PI attorneys, an insurance company claims rep/attorney, 3-4 insurance brokers and a lot of people who have either wrecked planes or sorted out the aftermath when their partners did. Everyone posts under their real name, you can assign the correct weight to their advice.

To get actual pricing and coverage information, talk to an insurance broker or agent. I have found that most of the information floating on POA or the red-board is wildly incorrect. One of the regular POA contributors is the agent for our partnership and he managed to find coverage for our unique situation that the general 'board wisdom' would suggest doesn't exist. He has been very generous with his time and worked hard to earn the premium.
 
Insurance is designed to cover honest mistakes. If you tried to conduct a flight safely and a mistake led to an accident, the insurance pays it and subrogation is unlikely. Now if you were negligent; as in rented the aircraft while intoxicated, then subrogation is more likely.

Non-Owned Aircraft Liability Insurance is designed to provide your own liability coverage and defense, which is excess of the aircraft insurance policy. You can purchase Physical Damage to cover the aircraft itself - this is what will pay for the deductible that a lot of schools have you agree to cover.

We don't sell Non-Owned but mass agencies like AOPA do, they cost a couple hundred dollars a year in average - depending on how much coverage you want to buy.

Best,

AG
 
Parker Woodruff at Falcon Insurance seems to get good praise on the Red Board? I believe he's based on Florida.
 
For non-owned I have looked at the policies for the following 3 companies (and held policies with two):

1. Chartis
- sold through many brokers, e.g. AOPAIA
- wont cover certain non-owned aircraft

2. Avemco
- only sold directly through the company
- covers multi-engine with a rider, dont care what aircraft if unpressurized and <350hp/side
- has a per-person sublimit (which applies to people outside of the plane, not only your pax !)
- insurance limits 'stack' with other insurance available for the plane as long as you own 20% or less of the plane
- offers a rider to cover flying for CAP

3. CV Starr
- offers higher limits than the other two (up to 1mil/200k)
- covers multi-engine with a rider
- 'private pleasure and business use', excludes all flights 'for hire, money or any form of reward or compensation from others'. (I read that to mean that it wouldn't cover reimbursed flying on behalf of CAP, e.g. sanctioned SAR or training missions).
 
If you tried to conduct a flight safely and a mistake led to an accident, the insurance pays it and subrogation is unlikely.

Of course, that is a determination that will be made after the fact by a recovery specialist insurance adjuster, whose job it is to make whatever recovery for the insurance company is possible, and their subrogation attorney, who will either get a percentage of the recovery, or will get paid by the hour to bring a claim. Do you want to rely on their kindness to protect you in the event you make a mistake?

Now if you were negligent; as in rented the aircraft while intoxicated, then subrogation is more likely.

That would probably fall into the catagory of reckless, which would be pretty clear. But where does running the plane out of fuel lie on the spectrum? What about failing to do a go around on a botched approach? Again, see the above point.
 
Parker has been my guy for a number of years. Always helpful. Never had a claim though....

Knock on wood
 
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