Is it this hard for everyone?

Vince R

Vince R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Mar 14, 2017
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139
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Southport NC
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Vince R
[Apologies in advance for the verbose post...]

I need to vent a bit...I've been trying to purchase an airplane for over a year, and I've been frustrated at every step of the way.

My requirements are basic: take a 450 pound payload 500 miles at 160+ knots in a reasonably modern airplane that's not a "project" or one that's likely to need something major in the first few years.

I've shopped 182's (mostly RGs), Trinidads, Arrows, Saratogas, Cirrus and Bonanzas. I've spoken to more brokers than I can count, and sent dozens of emails to advertisers - most of whom rarely bother to reply. I belong to the type clubs for all of the breeds of plane I like, and I watch the "For Sale" postings on these sites like a hawk.

I've been close on four occasions - and I've made offers on two of these. Both have gone poorly. My most recent attempt was a nice F33A Bonanza...I spent two days and a thousand bucks going to see it, liked what I saw, told the owner I'd be making an offer - and had an initial offer for 92% of his asking price in his hands within 24 hours. He goes dark on me for two days and after I start calling his cell, I get a one-line email "I decided to sell to someone else". No discussions or negotiations, just "no thanks". If he had another buyer in the wings, he couldn't have told me that before I spent the time and money to go see it?

Add to this frustration the task of finding hangar space. There are three suitable airports within an hour drive of me, and none seem to have an inch of space available. At my local airport (KSUT), there are about 100 people ahead of me on the hangar waiting list, and I don't think it's moved since I joined. The reality is that whatever I buy will likely spend a lot of time baking in the nice salty North Carolina coastal air, and that's a whole different frustration.

I'm not a kid (late 50's) and I've been in business long enough that I think I know how to negotiate and close a transaction. I'm not a perfectionist - I'm more than happy with "good enough", and I fully expect to spend some money getting my plane setup like I want it. I don't need financing, and I don't feel like I'm trying to squeeze every penny out of the sellers I've spoken to. I just want to spend a little money, get a plane, and find somewhere to keep it. I kinda thought that the hard part would be making the commitment to spend the money - now I see that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I really hope some of you might point out a few tips and tricks I'd never think of. Or, if it's just a case that this is all par for the course, well, maybe it would be reassuring to know that too. Of course, I don't rule out that maybe I'm just being an idiot and going through things totally the wrong way...don't be shy - at this point, I'd even like to know that!
 
I've been extraordinarily lucky with aircraft purchases, but I think a lot of it has been right place right time. It sounds like you're going after aircraft that are still largely a seller's market. I don't have any tips or tricks for you other than to persevere. But have you considered a 310? That'll fit your mission.
 
Ownership can be really annoying at times. It sounds like you've got some money to work with, so that's certainly a big part of the puzzle, but not all of it, as you've discovered. My suggestions would be to see if you can reach out to any of the pilots in your area, they might be privy to some information that you don't see on places like Barnstormer's. Something like: "John" just lost his medical and wants to sell his airplane, but he's too busy to list it.

The last plane I purchased actually came with a new hangar, but it wasn't a deal that was listed anywhere, I just found out about it word of mouth. Is there a post it board at the airport you could put a flyer up on? Local EAA chapter meetings? Electronic communcation available? We have a newsletter that goes out to all the local pilots every few weeks called Louisiana Aviator and it always has airplanes and hangars for sale that you don't see on the main aviation selling sites.
 
Many of the best planes and best deals never hit the "open" market; they're sold via word of mouth and references. You need to start talking to local pilots and mechanics in your area and making sure they know you're looking, and posting "Want to Buy" on the various type-club message boards (and other active boards like this and Beechtalk). You should also identify the "best" type-specific buyer's agents (or general buyer's agents) and have them work their contacts.
 
Vince R said:
I've been close on four occasions - and I've made offers on two of these. Both have gone poorly. My most recent attempt was a nice F33A Bonanza...I spent two days and a thousand bucks going to see it, liked what I saw, told the owner I'd be making an offer - and had an initial offer for 92% of his asking price in his hands within 24 hours. He goes dark on me for two days and after I start calling his cell, I get a one-line email "I decided to sell to someone else". No discussions or negotiations, just "no thanks". If he had another buyer in the wings, he couldn't have told me that before I spent the time and money to go see it?
Click to expand...

Kinda rude way to reject your offer, but when he had a 100% of asking price I go that way too.
 
When you see he aircraft you want, get a binding contract and a deposit on it as soon as possible.
 
Vince R said:
I need to vent a bit...I've been trying to purchase an airplane for over a year, and I've been frustrated at every step of the way.
Click to expand...
The phone is you friend. Go through the FAA registry of all planes that are of interest and are local to you. Do a reverse lookup for numbers and start dialing. I guarantee that you'll hit somebody who owns a pristine plane and are thinking about selling it. The "go-getter" aircraft brokers do this all the time. Especially if they have demanding clients where money is no issue but finding the right plane is.
 
You have to be decisive in today's market. Does not mean you have to buy blindly but there is a big difference between a "I am ready to buy and work out a deal if it is as represented"...and " I am a tire kicker looking around and may send ya an offer after thinking about it" mentality.
 
Sucks on the Bonanza offer that didn't work out but I will say that when I bought my Saratoga I knew it was going to be a hot commodity. Brand new listing and I could identify the good deal (pending inspection). I called and made a verbal offer (full asking price) on the phone pending my own inspection. I called and rescheduled my entire day's appointments and flew to see it the next morning... and wrote a fat deposit check that day. I've been happily enjoying my plane ever since. There was a lengthy list of people that had called shortly after me that was hoping the deal would fall through.

To get a good deal on a plane you need to find it early and be ready to pounce.
 
Buying airplanes can definitely be a PITA.
 
I looked for over a year and still had to settle for not exactly what I wanted. Basic Med and the good economy has dried up the supply by nearly half. People are dumping $$$ into the panel and hanging onto the plane, not moving up. I wish that I was of more help.
 
Sometimes the asking price gets you what you want. Not that much difference in the total scheme of things. You don't have a problem that more money wouldnt solve. Remember, the cost of the airplane is the difference between what you pay for it and what sell it for some time later. That is what , maybe 20-30k over 10 years. Yet is costs 100k to fly the plane those 1000 hours. Start looking at the MOST EXPENSIVE planes in the list, find a creampuff that has everything working, and buy it. If its too expensive then lower your sights to less expensive planes.

You think buying a plane is hard? Try selling one.
 
Tom-D said:
Kinda rude way to reject your offer, but when he had a 100% of asking price I go that way too.
Click to expand...

To be clear, I don't really blame the seller - it's his plane to do what he wishes. I just wish he had given me the opportunity to say, "okay, I'll pay $10K more". I probably would have done it and all you guys would have been spared my venting...
 
coloradobluesky said:
Sometimes the asking price gets you what you want. Not that much difference in the total scheme of things. You don't have a problem that more money wouldnt solve. Remember, the cost of the airplane is the difference between what you pay for it and what sell it for some time later. That is what , maybe 20-30k over 10 years. Yet is costs 100k to fly the plane those 1000 hours. Start looking at the MOST EXPENSIVE planes in the list, find a creampuff that has everything working, and buy it. If its too expensive then lower your sights to less expensive planes.

You think buying a plane is hard? Try selling one.
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point on pricing, and I admit I'm not sure how to think about that sometimes. On many of the planes I've been interested in, I'll check the big three valuation services (vRef, Aircraft Bluebook, NIAFF) for a rough idea of "fair value"...the more pristine ones I want tend to run about 25% more than the highest estimates from any of these services. If that's what it takes - fine...at this point I'm just trying to get to a number that values the plane fairly so I can get on with it.
 
If you decide you can accept a few less knots, I have a 79 182Q I am going to sell soon. Aspen, Garmin 750, Gdl88(add-b in and out) auto pilot with altitude hold etc. However you won’t see 160 knot unless you count the tailwind.
 
Vince R said:
[Apologies in advance for the verbose post...]

I need to vent a bit...I've been trying to purchase an airplane for over a year, and I've been frustrated at every step of the way.

My requirements are basic: take a 450 pound payload 500 miles at 160+ knots in a reasonably modern airplane that's not a "project" or one that's likely to need something major in the first few years.

I've shopped 182's (mostly RGs), Trinidads, Arrows, Saratogas, Cirrus and Bonanzas. I've spoken to more brokers than I can count, and sent dozens of emails to advertisers - most of whom rarely bother to reply. I belong to the type clubs for all of the breeds of plane I like, and I watch the "For Sale" postings on these sites like a hawk.

I've been close on four occasions - and I've made offers on two of these. Both have gone poorly. My most recent attempt was a nice F33A Bonanza...I spent two days and a thousand bucks going to see it, liked what I saw, told the owner I'd be making an offer - and had an initial offer for 92% of his asking price in his hands within 24 hours. He goes dark on me for two days and after I start calling his cell, I get a one-line email "I decided to sell to someone else". No discussions or negotiations, just "no thanks". If he had another buyer in the wings, he couldn't have told me that before I spent the time and money to go see it?

Add to this frustration the task of finding hangar space. There are three suitable airports within an hour drive of me, and none seem to have an inch of space available. At my local airport (KSUT), there are about 100 people ahead of me on the hangar waiting list, and I don't think it's moved since I joined. The reality is that whatever I buy will likely spend a lot of time baking in the nice salty North Carolina coastal air, and that's a whole different frustration.

I'm not a kid (late 50's) and I've been in business long enough that I think I know how to negotiate and close a transaction. I'm not a perfectionist - I'm more than happy with "good enough", and I fully expect to spend some money getting my plane setup like I want it. I don't need financing, and I don't feel like I'm trying to squeeze every penny out of the sellers I've spoken to. I just want to spend a little money, get a plane, and find somewhere to keep it. I kinda thought that the hard part would be making the commitment to spend the money - now I see that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I really hope some of you might point out a few tips and tricks I'd never think of. Or, if it's just a case that this is all par for the course, well, maybe it would be reassuring to know that too. Of course, I don't rule out that maybe I'm just being an idiot and going through things totally the wrong way...don't be shy - at this point, I'd even like to know that!
Click to expand...

With how "supersized"'people are now days, tell me more about how the pay load is broken down.

Maybe a glasair RG
 
You don't mention how many seats, but a Van's RV-6 or RV-7 would meet your stated requirements, and could potentially be a lot newer than some of the alternatives.
(The RV-9 will do 160 KTAS, but it's workin' pretty hard at that speed!)
 
James331 said:
With how "supersized"'people are now days, tell me more about how the pay load is broken down.

Maybe a glasair RG
Click to expand...

The most common payload is my wife and I up front (I'm the big one at 230) plus our 50 pound English bulldog in back. Usually very minimal luggage.
 
Topper said:
If you decide you can accept a few less knots, I have a 79 182Q I am going to sell soon. Aspen, Garmin 750, Gdl88(add-b in and out) auto pilot with altitude hold etc. However you won’t see 160 knot unless you count the tailwind.
Click to expand...

I had a 182S as a member in a three-way partnership, but I moved out of the area and sold my share. It was a great plane overall - easy to fly and trouble-free, although (as you say) ours was 135-140 knots, not 160. Normally, you wouldn't expect a huge difference in 10-20 knots, but when the weather didn't cooperate, our 500 mile missions sometimes ran over six hours between headwinds and a pesky extra fuel stop that we needed to stay safe with IFR alternates. We did this trip a few dozen times, and it seemed that the dreaded 6-hour trip happens about 30% of the time. When I add 45 minutes drive to the airport, time for preflight, run-up, taxi, etc - well, door-to-door our 500 mile trips were close to eight hours sometimes....it's only 10-11 hours driving (and one-fifth the cost). It was frequently a little beyond the comfort factor of my most important passenger, if you know what I mean.

We've done the same trip in a friend's SR22 several times (okay, it's more like 180 knots), and between the higher speed and the greater nonstop range, those trips average under 3 hours - quite a difference, and of course, now we're spoiled.
 
Vince,
While I can’t offer you much, I can say this- go to a type specific broker, a specialist. Want a Cirrus? Go to what’s her name in central Ohio. Want a Cessna specialist? Go to Van Bortels in Texas. There are others, but these guys hook up buyers and sellers of specific planes and they may have “inventory in stock”. After a year, maybe the aggravation is not worth the cost savings of finding that killer deal. Go to a “dealer” rather than a broker or private party. My 2 cents. Hope it helps.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Vince,
While I can’t offer you much, I can say this- go to a type specific broker, a specialist. Want a Cirrus? Go to what’s her name in central Ohio. Want a Cessna specialist? Go to Van Bortels in Texas. There are others, but these guys hook up buyers and sellers of specific planes and they may have “inventory in stock”. After a year, maybe the aggravation is not worth the cost savings of finding that killer deal. Go to a “dealer” rather than a broker or private party. My 2 cents. Hope it helps.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I’ve avoided the dealers in favor of private parties...I guess I have the image of the used car salesman dressed in plaid polyester in my head.
 
How I found my airplane. First, I saw it in the classified of COPA (canadian equivalent to AOPA.

As this was a seventeen years old airplane I was fully expecting to put 30-40k$ on it in order to bring it up to my standards so that’s why I was unwilling to pay the full asking price.

Contacted the owner telling him that I liked his airplane but it would be x$ above the budget I had in mind. The owner replied that his asking price was firm. Many aircraft owners think their bird is a priceless gem even when it is not. So that was the end of it. But I had the owner’s name, email and phone number and airplane numbers. That was in April or May 2016.

Then in January 2017 during the holidays out of curiosity I searches the canadian aircraft registration database to see if the airplane had been sold. No. So I sent a holiday greetings email to the owner asking wether he had sold his airplane and reiterating how muh I was willing to pay for it. And he agreed to my price. Had the airplane inspected, all was okay for a seventeen year old airplane. I bought it and flew it back to its new homebase.

I am very happy with the airplane. So far I have put 20000$ canadian (15k$ usd?) on it and I still want to install two Garmin G5s, and ADSB-Out next winter.

Good luck!
 
Vince R said:
I had a 182S as a member in a three-way partnership, but I moved out of the area and sold my share. It was a great plane overall - easy to fly and trouble-free, although (as you say) ours was 135-140 knots, not 160. Normally, you wouldn't expect a huge difference in 10-20 knots, but when the weather didn't cooperate, our 500 mile missions sometimes ran over six hours between headwinds and a pesky extra fuel stop that we needed to stay safe with IFR alternates. We did this trip a few dozen times, and it seemed that the dreaded 6-hour trip happens about 30% of the time. When I add 45 minutes drive to the airport, time for preflight, run-up, taxi, etc - well, door-to-door our 500 mile trips were close to eight hours sometimes....it's only 10-11 hours driving (and one-fifth the cost). It was frequently a little beyond the comfort factor of my most important passenger, if you know what I mean.

We've done the same trip in a friend's SR22 several times (okay, it's more like 180 knots), and between the higher speed and the greater nonstop range, those trips average under 3 hours - quite a difference, and of course, now we're spoiled.
Click to expand...

Spoiled is my problem also. I am in a partnership in a Columbia 400, I kept the 182 for the times the useful load of the 400 wouldn’t cut it. Now 140 seems to slow. I understand the difference in the long distances. I am in the middle of the country and have flown the 400 to both coasts. I am solving my useful load problem by replacing the 182 with a 310. I have a verbal deal on a 310, details to come!
 
Vince R said:
...at this point I'm just trying to get to a number that values the plane fairly so I can get on with it.
Click to expand...

And there’s your problem. Value is both in the eye of the buyer and the seller.
 
Vince R said:
The most common payload is my wife and I up front (I'm the big one at 230) plus our 50 pound English bulldog in back. Usually very minimal luggage.
Click to expand...

Not sure, but that might work for a glasair, that would be the easiest choice for speed and economy.
 
Pascal Forget said:
How I found my airplane. First, I saw it in the classified of COPA (canadian equivalent to AOPA.

As this was a seventeen years old airplane I was fully expecting to put 30-40k$ on it in order to bring it up to my standards so that’s why I was unwilling to pay the full asking price.

Contacted the owner telling him that I liked his airplane but it would be x$ above the budget I had in mind. The owner replied that his asking price was firm. Many aircraft owners think their bird is a priceless gem even when it is not. So that was the end of it. But I had the owner’s name, email and phone number and airplane numbers. That was in April or May 2016.

Then in January 2017 during the holidays out of curiosity I searches the canadian aircraft registration database to see if the airplane had been sold. No. So I sent a holiday greetings email to the owner asking wether he had sold his airplane and reiterating how muh I was willing to pay for it. And he agreed to my price. Had the airplane inspected, all was okay for a seventeen year old airplane. I bought it and flew it back to its new homebase.

I am very happy with the airplane. So far I have put 20000$ canadian (15k$ usd?) on it and I still want to install two Garmin G5s, and ADSB-Out next winter.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Lol, what's it being 17 years old matter.

Frankly the older and simpler airframes tend to be built stronger and require less mx.
 
TCABM said:
And there’s your problem. Value is both in the eye of the buyer and the seller.
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Certainly true - that's why there are usually negotiations involved...one side makes an offer based on his view of value, and the other responds with a counter-offer based on his view of value. This is usually the path to a mutually agreeable solution both sides can be happy with, or am I missing your point?
 
I found trying to buy a plane to be a combination of the worst of used cars and real estate. Horrible photos, "call for price", stupid answers to questions or none at all, etc.

I will say we had an agreed upon price and I put down a refundable deposit before I went to look at it. Of course they still probably could have sold it out from under me, but it was less likely.

If there is a next time there's a good chance I'll hire a buyers broker to deal with most of the filtering.
 
It took a while, because I wanted an R model, but once I found my plane I think it took a week from prebuy to home and in the hangar. Really easy experience.
 
Have you look for one that is not for sale?
 
Mine took about 2 months.

Started with a few calls and pics.

Ended up negotiating about price, inspection terms, post inspection buyer & seller options, and finally agreeing to terms and signing the deal. Deposit and escrow.

Then inspection (was ferried to my choice of mechanic). I went to the prebuy and rode right seat (it was not in my possession and seller was not there).

Then negotiated on the prebuy findings.

Closed the deal. I arranged for storage.

Then had it transported for my transition training.

Me and a CFI friend flew down, both did transition training, then flew it back.

I think I’ll do a write up of my experience, just to remember the time, but also to share here.
 
I hired Bob Stephens to find me a Bo. A semi retired guy that some days did nothing else than burn his cell minutes calling people. He found one through a friend of a friend that I would never have access to. I recommend him to anyone looking for a complex plane. He did right for me and didnt charge anywhere near as much as he should have.
I would pick a plane you like, post on that message board you would like help finding one and use a resource like Bob. I have a day job where he could make the calls and filter out the bad choices for me.
 
Vince R said:
...This is usually the path to a mutually agreeable solution both sides can be happy with, or am I missing your point?
Click to expand...

I think the point I’m trying to make is that while you see this purchase as a rational business transaction, the sellers may have personal or emotional connections with the aircraft they are selling.

What I realized in my aborted buying attempt is that when I’m ready to buy again, I’ll be reaching out to the one or two high volume/highly respected brokers for the make/model I’m interested in and let them source me an aircraft within my given budget and requirement.

The cost to me will be higher, but the value of a done deal is worth it to me.
 
chartbundle said:
I found trying to buy a plane to be a combination of the worst of used cars and real estate. Horrible photos, "call for price", stupid answers to questions or none at all, etc.

I will say we had an agreed upon price and I put down a refundable deposit before I went to look at it. Of course they still probably could have sold it out from under me, but it was less likely.

If there is a next time there's a good chance I'll hire a buyers broker to deal with most of the filtering.
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point about having an agreed price, but I always feel like I'm at a disadvantage when making an offer if I haven't seen the plane yet. If it's got some issues, but I still want it, it's really hard to say, "I know we agreed to X, but now that I've seen it, I want to pay less". But then I guess you just get a free for all, and there's the risk it gets sold out from under you if a better offer comes along. Still, seems like a savvy seller would at least poll you: "I got an offer for $X, do you want to beat it?".

Maybe a middle ground is to give the seller a "Letter of Intent" before spending money to go see something...that way you can at least get the expectations out in the open and have a talk about the process before you waste a lot of time and money.
 
Vince R said:
You bring up a good point about having an agreed price, but I always feel like I'm at a disadvantage when making an offer if I haven't seen the plane yet.
Click to expand...

This is part of the reason that the plane I looked at where the broker had tiny photos available was skipped when I asked for more photos and he sent the same tiny, useless photos. Also the ones who acted confused as to why I wanted a scanned copy of the logbooks.

My purchase agreement basically said the seller would do any airworthiness items(turned out to need a new windshield), and other stuff was my problem. But I could have still gotten my money back except anything they paid out(like the cost to bring it to the mechanic I wanted to do the pre-buy).
 
When I was looking for a plane I let everyone at the local airport know. It took a couple of years but I found my plane through the local A/P when he went for his IA renewal. He met another A/P that knew of someone that was thinking of selling what I was looking for. 10 days later I flew it home. You never know where a lead will come from.
 
I've bought and sold a few, and it can be just as frustrating being on the selling side. I've had someone pull out on the day they were supposed to come inspect the plane and fly it home, I've had offers made and people go dark only to turn up later (after much persistence on my part) having already bought another plane they'd made an offer on at the same time.

Most of the time, though, I haven't had too much trouble buying. Call (don't email) the seller to ask your questions - People don't take emails seriously and will think you're a tire kicker. Make arrangements to look at the plane yourself, including logbooks. If all looks good, sign paperwork and plunk down a deposit. Have the plane inspected by an A&P. Make any necessary adjustments to the price (or even cancel the deal) depending on their findings. Sign paperwork, hand over barrel of money, fly home.

The last transaction(s), about a year ago, happened as if they were just meant to be. Selling the club's old Archer (with 3200 hours SMOH, GX55 GPS, original 1978 paint & interior) and replacing it with a much nicer one (1980, 95 SMOH, Garmin 430, very nice paint & leather interior). While we advertised and shopped on a nationwide basis, it ended up that the buyer of the older one and the seller of the newer one were both people I knew. The older plane moved about 20 miles south to the airport we had bought it from in 1993, and the plane we purchased was already based on our field!

That said, our prior purchases were from brokers, and those worked well. Those guys don't get paid if they don't sell the plane.
 
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